20 years since them slags smashed into the twin towers...

[Shit Good Nose]

Hollywood sign

Give them a break, they've already lost "land" and now you want to take away more?  "Welcome to wood".

[Mr Banlon]

Sleeping Beauty's Castle
Hollywood sign
one of those big balls of yarn off the highway
Skywalker Ranch
Detroit
that arch thing in the midwest

Detroit ? I doubt anyone would notice. Or care.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Ghostbusters Firehouse
PS2 Launch Shipment
Osama Bin Laden
A Large Pile Of American Money
The Pie From American Pie
Scott Adams' Dilbert-shaped Gazebo

[JesusAndYourBush]

And although the damage to that section of the interior of the Pentagon was considerable, the external impact zone was less impressive,

It's also less impressive because we can't watch videos of the plane hitting.  CCTV was seized from nearby businesses and when they finally released something it was 3 crappy frames that showed so little that they only served to give fuel to conspiracy theorists.

[robhug]

i think what we're all trying to say, although through gritted teeth, is that Al-Qaeda were absolutely at the top of their game in 2001. They couldn't maintain that sort of level for a sustained period which could well have disappointed some hardcore terror fans. A bit like Ronaldinho was at football, which is to Ronnie's credit that he hardly killed anyone at all.

[idunnosomename]

Detroit ? I doubt anyone would notice. Or care.

it might even be an improvement!!!!!!!!!

[Mister Six]

I don't see the point of the WTC though, really.  If it was up to me it'd be -

• Whitehouse
• Capitol
• Pentagon x 2
• AOB

Whilst I accept personal choices and preferences are bound to come into it, I cannot, for the life of me, see their logic.

Dunno if this is a funny joke, but of the four (five, if you count the individual towers) targets, which ones did you see photos and videos of the most following the attacks?

Plus, aside from AOB, which I'm not sure what it is, you have four targets all in basically the same small part of Virginia/DC, so there might be some logistical issues in hijacking enough planes in that area to hit all targets.

[Buelligan]

AOB is Any Other Business[nb]you know, that thing they used to put at the bottom of formal agendas[/nb]. 

It's not a funny joke[nb]Obvs, I have no intention of any of this so it's all "a joke" in that sense, NSA buds[/nb], to me, maybe I view the thing incorrectly, but to me, the targets in the actual attack look confused.

Irrespective of what one thinks about killing random strangers, even if you don't care about stuff like that, I don't believe that media shares or whatever are the be all and end all.  IMO, what they wanted was to fuck America up the arse (like it has fucked the ME).  And do it in front of everyone.  Remind the US in the proud imagination of its heart that it is not God or God's country, it's just a place full of humans, like everywhere else and it bleeds (like everywhere else).

If I wanted to do that, I'd recognise that the media will show or not show, it will frame and subtitle, anything you do.  That is beyond your control.  What you do control is the devastation (to a degree).  My own feeling is that the destruction of irreplaceable objects integral to America's feelings of invulnerable power (like the Whitehouse and Capitol, the Pentagon) would have impacted the psyche of America's elite (and its people) far more.  That's just the way I see it.

[Captain Z]

For shock value, I reckon Enfield would be a better target than Whitehouse.

[Buelligan]

Heheh.  Yeah, you're right.  Also I'd prefer it.

[Cuellar]

Given the FURORE over the prospect of DOGS being left in Afghanistan, I'd wang a plane into Battersea Dogs Home

[Replies From View]

i think what we're all trying to say, although through gritted teeth, is that Al-Qaeda were absolutely at the top of their game in 2001. They couldn't maintain that sort of level for a sustained period which could well have disappointed some hardcore terror fans. A bit like Ronaldinho was at football, which is to Ronnie's credit that he hardly killed anyone at all.

Hold your gritted teeth mate I want to get this paper aeroplane into them

[Buelligan]

Given the FURORE over the prospect of DOGS being left in Afghanistan, I'd wang a plane into Battersea Dogs Home

Heheh.  But it's true that targets are important.  Think about the UK - would you focus a primary strike on the City, Lloyds, Canary Wharf?  Would that take you further than wiping out the House of Commons (feat. Winston's statue), Downing Street or Buckingham Palace and maybe Mi6 HQ or the MOD? 

[Mister Six]

to me, the targets in the actual attack look confused.

Irrespective of what one thinks about killing random strangers, even if you don't care about stuff like that, I don't believe that media shares or whatever are the be all and end all.  IMO, what they wanted was to fuck America up the arse (like it has fucked the ME).  And do it in front of everyone.  Remind the US in the proud imagination of its heart that it is not God or God's country, it's just a place full of humans, like everywhere else and it bleeds (like everywhere else).

If I wanted to do that, I'd recognise that the media will show or not show, it will frame and subtitle, anything you do.  That is beyond your control.  What you do control is the devastation (to a degree).  My own feeling is that the destruction of irreplaceable objects integral to America's feelings of invulnerable power (like the Whitehouse and Capitol, the Pentagon) would have impacted the psyche of America's elite (and its people) far more.  That's just the way I see it.

Well, I'd say they achieved that. The biggest buildings in the US in one of (if not the) most densely populated urban centres in the US (and the news/TV capital of America, too) is going to not only get a shit-ton of views (aiding the "in front of everyone" angle), it's going to hit home to everyone who's ever worked in a tall building, plus anyone who's been to, or wanted to visit, New York (remember, those towers were iconic - they're a symbol of NYC in the intro to The Sopranos and were featured in a big Spider-Man trailer, to name two examples off the top of my head).

Damaging the White House is going to be a powerful image too, but it's already been rebuilt once (so not irreplaceable) , it's quick to evacuate and they'd only remake it, with an identical exterior, in double quick time. All you'd lose is some antique paintings that nobody except art nerds gives a shit about. If it had been hit at the same time as the WTC, the latter would still get the lion's share of the news coverage (although it'd be a double feature for a while) because of the footage, the loss of life and the permanent destruction of an iconic landmark.

Same deal with Congress, except everyone hates the politicians there and awareness of what they actually do is limited, so it would have even less impact.

Honestly, I think it was mostly just "America is capitalist, so let's hit it in the capitalisms" plus "big towers go boom = America get hurt" more than anything else. But I certainly don't think hitting Congress (of all places), or the Pentagon twice[nb]As pointed out, there was minimal footage of the Pentagon crash, and that one is consequently mostly forgotten except by conspiracy theorists.[/nb], would have had the same impact - no pun intended - as the twin towers, whether or not they fell. Americans just aren't as psychically attached to those places as the big famous tourist attractions they've visited/seen on the telly.

[studpuppet]

The Alamo
Harvard Yard
Washington Monument
Golden Gate Bridge
Graceland

Sleeping Beauty's Castle
Hollywood sign
one of those big balls of yarn off the highway
Skywalker Ranch
Detroit
that arch thing in the midwest

We didn't start the fire, it was always burning (since those planes exploded).

[Buelligan]

Well, I'd say they achieved that. The biggest buildings in the US in one of (if not the) most densely populated urban centres in the US (and the news/TV capital of America, too) is going to not only get a shit-ton of views (aiding the "in front of everyone" angle), it's going to hit home to everyone who's ever worked in a tall building, plus anyone who's been to, or wanted to visit, New York (remember, those towers were iconic - they're a symbol of NYC in the intro to The Sopranos and were featured in a big Spider-Man trailer, to name two examples off the top of my head).

Damaging the White House is going to be a powerful image too, but it's already been rebuilt once (so not irreplaceable) , it's quick to evacuate and they'd only remake it, with an identical exterior, in double quick time. All you'd lose is some antique paintings that nobody except art nerds gives a shit about. If it had been hit at the same time as the WTC, the latter would still get the lion's share of the news coverage (although it'd be a double feature for a while) because of the footage, the loss of life and the permanent destruction of an iconic landmark.

Same deal with Congress, except everyone hates the politicians there and awareness of what they actually do is limited, so it would have even less impact.

Honestly, I think it was mostly just "America is capitalist, so let's hit it in the capitalisms" plus "big towers go boom = America get hurt" more than anything else. But I certainly don't think hitting Congress (of all places), or the Pentagon twice[nb]As pointed out, there was minimal footage of the Pentagon crash, and that one is consequently mostly forgotten except by conspiracy theorists.[/nb], would have had the same impact - no pun intended - as the twin towers, whether or not they fell. Americans just aren't as psychically attached to those places as the big famous tourist attractions they've visited/seen on the telly.

You may have a point.  From my perspective, I think you're seeing things far too much from the pov of the media.  This is not, IMO, about the media. 

[Mister Six]

Heheh.  But it's true that targets are important.  Think about the UK - would you focus a primary strike on the City, Lloyds, Canary Wharf?  Would that take you further than wiping out the House of Commons (feat. Winston's statue), Downing Street or Buckingham Palace and maybe Mi6 HQ or the MOD?

Americans aren't Brits and don't have the same attachments. But I reckon Camry Wharf would still trump MOD or MI6 in the public's perception even though it's out in the arse end of the Docklands and not easily visible from on foot across the city (unlike the WTC in NYC) and not iconic (the only popular culture appearance I can think of is in the comic book The Invisibles).

[Mister Six]

You may have a point.  From my perspective, I think you're seeing things far too much from the pov of the media.  This is not, IMO, about the media.

Why wouldn't it be about the media? How do you think everyone outside of NYC found out about the WTC and Pentagon attacks? And of those two, which attack are most people more familiar with and can recall details about?

How many bad airbrushed golden eagles had the Pentagon reflected in their single perfect teardrops?

[Zetetic]

I wonder if it's a mistake to think that Americans were the only or even the main audience of the attacks as far as the planners were concerned.

[Cuellar]

Heheh.  But it's true that targets are important.  Think about the UK - would you focus a primary strike on the City, Lloyds, Canary Wharf?  Would that take you further than wiping out the House of Commons (feat. Winston's statue), Downing Street or Buckingham Palace and maybe Mi6 HQ or the MOD?

BIG BEN

[Buelligan]

BIG BANG more like.

Why wouldn't it be about the media? How do you think everyone outside of NYC found out about the WTC and Pentagon attacks? And of those two, which attack are most people more familiar with and can recall details about?

How many bad airbrushed golden eagles had the Pentagon reflected in their single perfect teardrops?

It's just my opinion.  As I already said, IMO, it's not about media shares.  There are a lot of people living outside of the US who saw that the US is not invulnerable and for those in the UK, think about the media shares on Winston's statue (possibly being attacked) and your recollection of the terrorist attack on Canary Wharf.

[idunnosomename]

There's loads of tall buildings in the City you'd be doing a great service by cunting a plane into them

[robhug]

I wonder if it's a mistake to think that Americans were the only or even the main audience of the attacks as far as the planners were concerned.

the highest PPV sales were on Al-Jazeera Box Office in Saudi so you might be onto something there

[Cuellar]

If terrorists really wanted to annoy Britain they should just use their ill-gotten wealth to buy up loads of property in London or wherever and use it to house asylum seekers

[Zetetic]

There are a lot of people living outside of the US

And for many of them, the meaning of the WTC may have been considerably more significant than the Capitol or the White House.

Don't see many knock-offs of the last two scattered around the hellscapes of Arabia, but you do see plenty of skyscrapers half-heartedly copying Western sensibilities (some of which are also even branded as "World Trade Centers").

[Buelligan]

Yes, I agree that people outside of the US, at the sharp end might feel a blow against the WTC would mean more.  For consumption in the West though, it permitted the horror of personal small lives ended brutally to push out the message.  We rarely allow that to happen when we're looking through the range-finder in the other direction.

[Mister Six]

It's just my opinion.  As I already said, IMO, it's not about media shares.  There are a lot of people living outside of the US who saw that the US is not invulnerable and for those in the UK, think about the media shares on Winston's statue (possibly being attacked) and your recollection of the terrorist attack on Canary Wharf.

I think footage of human beings jumping out of buildings, or staggering around streets covered in ashes will trump structural damage any day. It's why reporters always try to talk to witnesses on the ground of major events - humans are (for the most part) attuned to the feelings of other humans.[nb]Particularly humans like themselves - or humans they consider to be like themselves - or geographically close to them, and especially when the feelings are caused by something unexpected.[/nb]

And, again, reporters are how anyone outside of the immediate area of impact find out about any of this. It's how all those people outside of the US discovered the country's vulnerability that day. Blow up a building, even a significant one, with no or little loss of life, and you'll get headlines for a bit and outrage for/sympathy with the victims for a bit, but it'll soon blow over. Blow up a skyscraper that everyone has seen on posters, in movies, on TV, killing thousands on live television for close to two hours and you'll change history.

Plus, as pointed out, people globally are going to react more viscerally to the destruction of an iconic skyscraper that looks a bit like the tall buildings in their nearest city than they are to the destruction of a foreign historic building or seat of government being blown up, especially if it's been evacuated (which would be faster to accomplish in the White House and Congress, which have dedicated escape routes and safe rooms, than the WTC).

Although I suppose we'll never know for sure.

[Beagle 2]

I started reading about the preparation the hijackers put in last night, starting with big Mo Atta, and it's really incredible the dedication that these people put in. At no point did he think "actually I could just get a job as an airline pilot instead, seeing as I've put all this effort in", it was all geared towards cunting himself into offices. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to clean the house and at the end of that I'd have a lovely clean house rather than some screaming and fire (depending how it went).

[katzenjammer]

I started reading about the preparation the hijackers put in last night,

Where are you reading that?

[JamesTC]

I started reading about the preparation the hijackers put in last night, starting with big Mo Atta, and it's really incredible the dedication that these people put in. At no point did he think "actually I could just get a job as an airline pilot instead, seeing as I've put all this effort in", it was all geared towards cunting himself into offices. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to clean the house and at the end of that I'd have a lovely clean house rather than some screaming and fire (depending how it went).

If you were told you'd get a load of virgins in heaven for cleaning your house then I bet you'd get to it sharpish.