Norm MacDonald has died

[Keebleman]

Arguable that Conan doesn't get the moth joke at all. He takes a real risk by jumping in halfway through to ask how long the journey was, which doesn't pay off as Norm just stops and waits to continue, and his laughter is one of the worst examples of fake talk show host laughing I've ever seen, with that one moment where he's cackling with his finger over his mouth seared into my mental vision in particular.

I think that interjection from Conan - "How long a drive was this?!" - is terrifically timed.  On the tribute podcast he tells how it was only a last-minute adjustment that had Norm still there after the commercial break.  Norm had prepared 7 mins of material, but that had all been used up in what he thought was his only spot of the night.  In the break he remembered the moth joke and improvised it into that Chekhov/Arthur Miller hybrid.

That podcast was nice to listen to but it was a little superficial.  Edged close to hagiography at times, so I was pleased that Andy Richter was critical about some of Norm's material.  Conan's suggestion that Norm may become more influential over the next few years is a very interesting one but it needed much more exploration than it got on the podcast (ie none).

[Magnum Valentino]

It might be terrifically timed but I don't understand the impulse driving one person talking over another when they're delivering a monologue length joke and Norm doesn't give him an inch when he does so.

[chveik]

just let the man tell his joke, it's not hard to realize you'll never be as funny as him

[Kelvin]

It might be terrifically timed but I don't understand the impulse driving one person talking over another when they're delivering a monologue length joke and Norm doesn't give him an inch when he does so.

Because as others have said, Conan's interjections are part of why it's so funny. Sections like that wouldn't land with the studio audience (or a large chunk of the audience at home) if Norm had just been left to tell a long, rambling story. There would be this tension that it was dragging on, which you wouldn't get in other, less rigid formats. You need someone like Conan to undercut the audience tension while also leaning into it just the right amount for the bit to work.   

[Kelvin]

A lot of Norm's stuff works like that, of course. Adam Eget plays a similar role in the podcast, albeit as a much more traditional straight man. As do many of Norm's guests on NM Live.

A lot of Norm's material is funny in of itself, but is elevated to perfection by creating a tangible tension between him and the people around him. But that relies on creating a tension which itself if funny, rather than awkward. People like Conan clearly understand that and help maintain that balance.   

[selectivememory]

I like Conan and I always thought he and Norm had great chemistry, and I'm pretty sure they both liked and respected each other a lot. The idea that Conan was spoiling those long, rambling jokes is silly. That's just not the nature of chat shows anyway. You need a bit of back and forth, and Conan usually knew when to step in and when to give him space.

(or yeah, basically what Kelvin says)

[checkoutgirl]

I was pleased that Andy Richter was critical about some of Norm's material

That's interesting because just last night I was lying awake convincing myself that Norm's material isn't always that great. Like as a stand up he's often middling to great and it's boosted by his on stage persona and confidence in staying within a bit, even if the bit isn't amazing. Like Chapelle, Pryor, O'Neal etc shit all over Norm as stand up comedians.

Similarly a lot of his chat show appearances and his own chat show are reliant on his supreme confidence in committing to anti comedy and terrible material which is a big skill in itself admittedly. I can't comment on his sketch stuff as I'm not familiar enough, except to say he was a contrarian on his SNL update bit, almost daring the management to fire him.

Based on a True Story (and other things) demonstrate he's an absolutely brilliant joke writer but I think he'll be remembered for his anti comedy confidence, like Andy Kaufman. His shaggy dog stories and Saget roast remind me of Kaufman's Mighty Mouse bit. This is terrible and you lot are coming with me whether you like it or not.

[Old Nehamkin]

The moth bit wouldn't work at all if Conan just compliantly indulged Norm and sat back quietly throughout the monologue. As others have said, the sense of friction and feigned resistance on the host's part were crucial to the schtick that Norm typically brought to his talk show appearances, and I think Conan understood how to play his foil as well or better than anyone.

[checkoutgirl]

just let the man tell his joke, it's not hard to realize you'll never be as funny as him

Jokes can ebb and flow, Conan might have been assisting the joke by interjecting and giving voice to what the audience might be thinking. The interruptions didn't hurt the bit ultimately.

[chveik]

yeah not this time i suppose, but i remember feeling irritated at others

[checkoutgirl]

The moth bit wouldn't work at all if Conan just compliantly indulged Norm and sat back quietly throughout the monologue. As others have said, the sense of friction and feigned resistance on the host's part were crucial to the schtick that Norm typically brought to his talk show appearances, and I think Conan understood how to play his foil as well or better than anyone.

Yeah, Conan is taking the Ernie Wise role and facilitating Norm in his Eric Morcambe nonsense. I'm surprised some people don't get this, Conan is and absolute comedy genius, he's a beast. His taped bits were made into a Netflix show and show his skill as an improv master (watch him win over an angry mob in Haiti). The best natural comedian to ever take the chat show host role in my opinion. Letterman being number 2 for me.

[checkoutgirl]

yeah not this time i suppose, but i remember feeling irritated at others

I understand, personally I haven't watched a lot of what Conan's been up to for years and years because the chat show format doesn't appeal to me at all. I still lament him leaving the Simpsons so quickly over two decades ago. Such a waste.

[Twit 2]

Jokes can ebb and flow, Conan might have been assisting the joke by interjecting and giving voice to what the audience might be thinking. The interruptions didn't hurt the bit ultimately.

Indeed, the way he carries on ('He says, "Doc...!"') is one of my favourite parts of the routine and gets a massive laugh.

[McChesney Duntz]

I wonder a bit if Conan would have played it differently had Norm done that bit on the old Late Night show or the latter-day Conan program rather than the Tonight Show, which is kinda the mainstream chat show nonpareil (and a show that Conan wasn't especially suited for, not that he was given much of a chance). But there may have been a little bit of audience hand-holding there.

[MrsWarboysLover]

I listened to that Conan thing, and was left with the feeling that they didn't really get Norm. All their "analysis" seemed a bit off. This sounds ridiculous, because they knew him and I didn't, but I suppose I mean my interpretation of him was a bit different. For example, when talking about the moth joke, Richter said something about "oh you think tv time is so precious, I'll show you how precious it is" but I don't think that's what it was about. I think he did it because he was there to be funny and he thought it would be funny (and it was). Also, they talked about the blade runner guy and didn't bring up the word "biped" which tells me they weren't paying attention.

I agree. Andy was completely wrong about the moth joke.
I found myself resenting Andy being there actually - a man who has never been funny once in his life, using what is meant to be a celebration of Norm as an opportunity to air his grievances. He was wrong about the Swedish-German joke too - the punchline of the joke this time actually involves him not being gay ("Andy Richter isn't into that funny stuff either"). Not only is it not the time and place to be criticising Norm, he didn't even understand any of his jokes on a surface level

Every single time Andy opened his mouth it was to make some backhanded comment. He clearly didn't understand or like Norm and any praise he makes is surrounded by heavy caveats. I wish Conan hadn't brought him on.

[thelittlemango]

He was wrong about the Swedish-German joke too - the punchline of the joke this time actually involves him not being gay ("Andy Richter isn't into that funny stuff either"). Not only is it not the time and place to be criticising Norm, he didn't even understand any of his jokes on a surface level

Andy Richter even said that on the show didn't he? I remember him bumbling around after the joke and inferring he liked how this one ended as in this one as he was a reluctant victim, leading to Norm getting one of the biggest laughs with "because you weren't gay, (Andy: "that's beside the point") you were raped!"

[Nowhere Man]

I do on the one hand understand why he could have taken it personally, but the joke was never really about Andy in the first place. (It certainly wasn't a joke at the expense of gay people either) It's just a bit disappointing in my opinion when you consider how many comedians took it as a given that the real humour in Norm making such jokes on talk shows and the like was the absurdity of displaying such impish behaviour on mainstream TV.

The joke being centred around Andy 'the swedish-german' has to do as much with the ridiculousness that he would be a prostitute in the old west or wherever the ridiculous premise. He was busting his balls in the same way that, he would anyone else that was sat next to him i.e when he makes a joke about David Spade being impotent, or Adam Eget jerking off punks for 15 dollars under the Queensboro Bridge.

On a different note, Carrot Top has started playing the classic 'I bet it's spelt B-O-R-E-D' clip at his live shows as a tribute to Norm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwpYydz6wXY&ab_channel=I%27mnotNorm

[MrsWarboysLover]

Totally agree Nowhere Man

Look at Adam Eget, then look at Andy Richter. They both got the same treatment but Adam, the one who ISN'T technically a comedian*, is able to actually understand the joke and just roll with it, instead of harbouring resentment for years about it.

it's weird to me that he thinks "swedish-german" is code for gay, because while Norm did make gay jokes about him at other times, the Swedish-German one was not one of those.

If Andy wants to criticise Norm for being problematic, that's fine, although personally I find looking at comedy through that filter extremely tiresome.
But I'd have thought he'd have more dignity and grace than to do it immediately after Norm's death, on a podcast that's supposed to be a tribute to him. It just isn't the time or place.

*
He's not a comedian, but his comic timing here is brilliant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKJtOoqTxRI

[thelittlemango]

I never once thought of the Swedish-German part as a euphemism for being gay, I always just found 'Andy Richter the Swedish-German' to be a funny combination of words and was surprised when I heard him say that, he looks annoyed at the end of that clip, as if he tried to get a laugh but was steam-rollered.

[Cold Meat Platter]

Christ did he say that? No that's totally wrong as has been said. What a wanker.

I think this all started when Andy made a sarcastic joke about liking gay porn when Norm brought it up which Norm then kept mentioning on subsequent appearances, including one where he clearly has been asked by Andy not to, and gleefully 'apologises' for having previously done so while making further insinuations.

[Magnum Valentino]

I do not think Conan is a comedy genius. I'm not sure he's ever made me laugh or that I even realised he was supposed to.

However, I am very open to challenging my opinions and if anyone would like to recommend something that gives a good representation of why we have a few pages of people singing his praises, I will try it out.

[Kelvin]

I do not think Conan is a comedy genius. I'm not sure he's ever made me laugh or that I even realised he was supposed to.

However, I am very open to challenging my opinions and if anyone would like to recommend something that gives a good representation of why we have a few pages of people singing his praises, I will try it out.

He wrote for The Simpson's back when it was at it's peak? Marge Vs The Monorail is one of his episodes.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

It's bizarre to me Norm was so vitriolic about postmodernism and anticomedy and all that stuff, when he was the master of it. It goes beyond just him saying he prefers to be thought of as a traditional joke teller or stand up.

I read that Vulture interview, he comes across as the dumbest smart guy ever. He was clearly brilliant and full of insight but there's some sort of self-loathing or doubt going that he's channelling into hating political correctness and whatever. Hey, you've basically perfected this thing and everyone agrees you're wonderful at it and even audiences expecting to hate you will crack up - no I'm not doing that, that's shit, I just do jokes, etc.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

He wrote for The Simpson's back when it was at it's peak? Marge Vs The Monorail is one of his episodes.

Half of Homer Goes to College might as well be in Conan's voice. When Homer talks to the dean or the nerds, its like Conan talking to himself.

"I'm sorry about the running you over prank..." "prank?!"

"Hey, that sounds like a pig falling over"

[chveik]

i dunno who that I'm Not Norm guy is but he should fuck off trying to sell you his shit merch

[Cold Meat Platter]

It's bizarre to me Norm was so vitriolic about postmodernism and anticomedy and all that stuff, when he was the master of it.

I thought that was part of the joke, myself. He doesn't strike me as being in 'sincere mode' when he says those things.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

I thought that was part of the joke, myself. He doesn't strike me as being in 'sincere mode' when he says those things.

Maybe. Maybe he had to keep the image of a regular comedian because it does get your guard down. The Dolphin Joke is funny to me on rewatch because his delivery somehow overrides the part of my brain that'd be prepared for it.

But also he is stated his other, worse opinions at the same time. He really did think Mort Sahl and Lenny Bruce were frauds because political satire isn't funny. The bit about "that Swift thing" (Gullivers fucking Travels) being shit in the same interview did seem like a bit so who fucking knows.

What a brilliant comedian, what a weird fucking arsehole.

[Avril Lavigne]

It's bizarre to me Norm was so vitriolic about postmodernism and anticomedy and all that stuff, when he was the master of it. It goes beyond just him saying he prefers to be thought of as a traditional joke teller or stand up.

I read that Vulture interview, he comes across as the dumbest smart guy ever. He was clearly brilliant and full of insight but there's some sort of self-loathing or doubt going that he's channelling into hating political correctness and whatever. Hey, you've basically perfected this thing and everyone agrees you're wonderful at it and even audiences expecting to hate you will crack up - no I'm not doing that, that's shit, I just do jokes, etc.

Surely admitting he's in on it would ruin the whole experience though. It's like Andy Kaufman only ever wanting to be labeled a 'song and dance man'.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

This seems sincere to me.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

His point that critics pretended that Andy Kaufman was much less popular than he was to make themselves seem smart or more "in" on comedy is maybe true, something I've seen others complain about, as odd as the rest of the rant is