Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 07:38:52 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Corbyn to oppose compulsory vaccines/vaccine passports.

Started by Dusty Substance, December 14, 2021, 07:18:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dusty Substance

Jeremy Corbyn (remember him?) just tweeted:

QuoteTonight I will oppose both compulsory vaccines for NHS staff, and the introduction of vaccine passports.  Both measures are counterproductive and will create division when we need cooperation and unity.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1470822969010184192

Naturally, this has resulted in a lot of division on Twitter.


Cuellar



Enzo


Milo

I think all of this can easily be solved by making them compulsory for new NHS staff. Not prepared to reduce your risk to others for free and for no practical detriment to yourself? Choose a different life path.

Given it looks like covid is here for good this would gradually improve outcomes and deter medical staff who arent going to be brilliant at hygiene.

jobotic

He's wrong on vaccine passports.

Oh my god I said Magic Grandpa was wrong about something! I've been totally destroyed!!!


Not sure about compulsory vaccines although it's bad enough having to work with an antivax fucking bellend in the building I'm in let alone if I was in a health setting.

imitationleather

I'm afraid if you disagree with Corbyn on something you're saying that the entire of 2015-19 was a mistake and that you love Starmer and Streeting.

jobotic


mothman

Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.

I don't really know what to think about vaccine passports. I'd sooner just avoid ever going anywhere that would be so crowded as to require one. And they're just a temporary thing, one would think - one day, all this will pass. Whereas the criminalisation of protest and the voter-suppression ID requirements, which the same Tory cunts clutching their pearls over vaccine passports voted for, will be with us a lot longer. I kinda get the feeling I'm not really understanding the issue.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: mothman on December 14, 2021, 10:07:18 PMAnd they're just a temporary thing, one would think - one day, all this will pass.

I find that incredibly unlikely given it puts in place the backend that has been tried under the guise of Id Cards, age verification for websites etc. It's pretty clear the security services want that very much given it has been proposed by different governments for over 20 years.

mothman

I meant the ostensible reason for it - the pandemic - would pass. But yes, this is why I say I don't really understand the issue.

chveik

corbyn's right. it's just theatre to pretend they care about fighting covid.

chveik

Quote from: mothman on December 14, 2021, 10:32:12 PMI meant the ostensible reason for it - the pandemic - would pass. But yes, this is why I say I don't really understand the issue.

there hasn't been a big scale terrorist attack in a long time in the west and yet some state of exception laws are still in place.

Butchers Blind


Theremin

Quote from: chveik on December 15, 2021, 12:46:36 AMcorbyn's right. it's just theatre to pretend they care about fighting covid.

I would build on that:

It's Theatre in order to institute a new system of surveillance and public tracking.

The security services (cunts) have been pushing for this my whole life, under the guise of differents schemes under various governments.

Corbyn's got his eye on the ball here.


Doesn't the UK already have more surveillance cameras per person than any other European nation? Plus we're all carrying mobile phones which track our movements etc.

Personally I have no problem with ID cards. Here in Spain, they're linked to the tax authorities, social security, health service, driving license, and they just make doing stuff so much easier, and I don't feel any less free for having one. Beats arcane requirements like having to provide utility bills for spurious proof of whatever.

Covid passport is just a matter of scanning the QR code on entry to places. It takes 5 seconds. If there's any evidence whatsoever that it limits the spread of the virus, that's 5 seconds I don't mind wasting

FredNurke

Quote from: Darles Chickens on December 15, 2021, 12:09:08 PMDoesn't the UK already have more surveillance cameras per person than any other European nation? Plus we're all carrying mobile phones which track our movements etc.

Not all of us.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Darles Chickens on December 15, 2021, 12:09:08 PMDoesn't the UK already have more surveillance cameras per person than any other European nation? Plus we're all carrying mobile phones which track our movements etc.

Personally I have no problem with ID cards. Here in Spain, they're linked to the tax authorities, social security, health service, driving license, and they just make doing stuff so much easier, and I don't feel any less free for having one. Beats arcane requirements like having to provide utility bills for spurious proof of whatever.

Covid passport is just a matter of scanning the QR code on entry to places. It takes 5 seconds. If there's any evidence whatsoever that it limits the spread of the virus, that's 5 seconds I don't mind wasting

It's this sort of permissive attitude that results in us being the most surveilled nations with terrible privacy laws. Things being bad is not a justification to make things worse.

Sebastian Cobb

Anyhow, far from being an antivax/nutter position, it looks like Corbyn's got historical form for being against surveillance databases.




Zetetic

The history of the Spanish ID card/DNI is quite interesting.

You can be challenged by police to identify yourself with one, and if you don't have it on you then they can compel to accompany them to a police station.

(Which I think isn't the case in England and Wales when it comes to "stop and question", although you can understandably challenge drivers to produce their driving licence.)

Sebastian Cobb

You're not required to carry your driving licence or any other documents in the UK though, and prior to the the PNC/DVLA databases they would typically hand you a HORT1, giving you 7 days to produce them at a station rather than haul you in.

katzenjammer

Quote from: Zetetic on December 15, 2021, 01:10:50 PMYou can be challenged by police to identify yourself with one, and if you don't have it on you then they can compel to accompany them to a police station.



That was not quite right. You have to have some form of acceptable ID, could also be your driving licence or passport. Non Spanish should also carry ID.  It has happened to me once in 14 years of living here. Like Darles I find it quite convenient, also for private transactions like renting a flat, it's good to be able get a copy of the landlord's ID card so you can identify them to the police if something goes wrong, for example.

Zetetic

Quote from: katzenjammer on December 15, 2021, 01:53:49 PMThat was not quite right. You have to have some form of acceptable ID, could also be your driving licence or passport.
I believe that's actually up to the discretion of the official.

Quote from: Zetetic on December 15, 2021, 01:10:50 PMYou can be challenged by police to identify yourself with one, and if you don't have it on you then they can compel to accompany them to a police station.

I can't tell whether you find that problematic or not.  In practice, everyone carries their ID cards at all times; it's as essential an item as your house keys, phone, and bank card or cash.  It's no sweat, you just carry it.  Prior to chip and PIN, payments by card had to be checked against your ID, for security, which definitely felt safer than checking a signature.

As for being required by the police to identify yourself when stopped, ID cards just make that painless. If the police want to know who you are, you're going to have to tell them one way or the other, but it's a lot more hassle without ID (being compelled to turn up at a police station within 24 hours with identifying documents, or whatever the requirement is in the UK).  I've been stopped several times by the Guardia Civil, normally because they're searching for a person of interest.  Hand over the card, they check it, they wave you on, no questions asked.

There's a stinking hypocrisy among Daily Mail Bingo types who oppose ID cards but then complain endlessly about the usual stuff (health tourism, benefit fraud, illegal employment, etc).  Perhaps after living with them for 15 years, my perspective has changed, but it just seems that having an ID card is a 21st century approach to managing and demonstrating your rights as a citizen in a world which is more mobile and connected than ever before.  Honestly if I had any complaints about the Spanish system, it'd be that I wish it was more centralised.  I'm a lazy sod: when I change my address in one place, I want it to update everywhere.  How hard can it be?

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Darles Chickens on December 15, 2021, 02:10:55 PMIn practice, everyone carries their ID cards at all times; it's as essential an item as your house keys, and bank card or cash.  It's no sweat, you just carry it. 

Square that with incoming protest laws and see why explicit "must carry id" laws may be problematic.

All I'm getting from you is this is all "convenient" because you've correctly assessed you're unlikely to be at the sinister end of this sort of legislation.

I don't know what protest laws are being proposed in the UK, but in 2015 Rajoy's right-wing government introduced the "Ley Mordaza" which stifled many freedoms to protest (and which is only just undergoing reform after two years of a supposedly leftist government).  Many people were arrested and fined, even for doing things as innocuous as taking videos of the police.  But no one here is asking for ID cards to be abolished.

Correct me if I don't understand your point, but it sounds like you're saying that, without ID cards, people would be freer to break protest laws without consequence, and obviously that's not true.

katzenjammer

Quote from: Zetetic on December 15, 2021, 01:59:54 PMI believe that's actually up to the discretion of the official.

Got a source? I'd genuinely like to know

Zetetic

ID cards requiring compulsory presentation make it easier to enforce anti-protest laws in practice, I'd suggest, by providing a yet more trivial pretext for police to hold people around or on their way to protests, and to more easily catalogue those people. (Yes, British police have access to other options as well, with slightly different qualities.)

QuoteBut no one here is asking for ID cards to be abolished.
Spain is unusual in how tolerant it is of ID cards. It's interesting to think why that is, and how that relates to the Franco era (or not), or the years since; I don't think I have a simple answer though.


Sebastian Cobb

QuoteCorrect me if I don't understand your point, but it sounds like you're saying that, without ID cards, people would be freer to break protest laws without consequence, and obviously that's not true.

British police are known for building intelligence on who attends protests in general and I believe the new laws can add punishment if you're a 'regular' even if you haven't been found to be breaking laws in the past. Making that intelligence building easy doesn't strike me as wise. Of course ID cards aren't the only way they do this, they use cameras, facial recognition and even fly drones with IMEI/IMSI catchers to collect mobile phone users in the area. Not carrying id is a wise step in the face of that, as is not having your phone powered up or placed in a faraday bag.

And even in peacetime, take stop and search laws, and how they're disproportionately used to prosecute different groups for trivial things like possession of weed with flimsy search pretexts, pick enough people and some are bound to be carrying, even if they weren't really doing anything to alert attention other than being black.

If you perform enough "random" checks on people you're bound to find people who have reasonably lost their id/wallets.