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March 29, 2024, 02:53:07 PM

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Everything Everywhere All At Once

Started by phantom_power, December 15, 2021, 08:27:15 AM

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Mister Six

Seems like standard vague CaB "Old man shouts at new thing" whinging that we've had since 2003 at least. Incoherent ALL CAPS unfunny faux-rage concluding with "fuck off". Classic.

(Talking about Shagatha and Sevendaughters here, not olliebean.)

Mister Six

(And by "old man" I mean either an actual old man/woman or a twentysomething affecting an air of furious, seen-it-all-before cynicism.)

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: olliebean on May 27, 2022, 11:14:44 PMOh, right, the "You didn't like it because you didn't get it" argument. Great, thanks for that. Go on then, enlighten us, what was the premise that we didn't get?

Well the premise where doing random things is key to disrupting sequencing in the universe you are currently in so you can jump to another.

Interpreting that as "lol random" would imply someone not really getting that fundamental part of the plot.

sevendaughters

Quote from: Mister Six on May 28, 2022, 03:40:22 PMSeems like standard vague CaB "Old man shouts at new thing" whinging that we've had since 2003 at least. Incoherent ALL CAPS unfunny faux-rage concluding with "fuck off". Classic.

(Talking about Shagatha and Sevendaughters here, not olliebean.)

It's no more or less noble a position than harrumphing from the vanguard of pop excrement because someone isn't discoursing the badfilm with sufficient reverence. Besides, I thought there was a reasonable point in the middle of mine about how the film feeds on the liberal desire for things to change without really contributing anything other than a shrug and a be-kind-and-understand sentiment. Where's your analysis beyond omg it was rilly good multiverse bumcream?


Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 03:47:54 PMWell the premise where doing random things is key to disrupting sequencing in the universe you are currently in so you can jump to another.

Interpreting that as "lol random" would imply someone not really getting that fundamental part of the plot.

What you've identified as a 'premise' (the initial state of affairs that drives our engagement) is actually a narrative device, such as the kind we have seen in films like Beetlejuice and The Matrix and Hook and a lot of horror where Thinking It Makes It Real. Only here it was used explictly as a site of comedic interest and to slightly paper over any incredulity at the premise (see earlier definition). I mean, maybe I missed a particular subtext latent in the whole buttplug fightscene gag that interrupts my curmundgeonly reading, but it just seemed like a place to stick some random TikTok style shit to pop the marks. You could say the bagel speaks to Derrida and the arbitrariness of the sign but again, I say fuck off lolrandom bullshit.

God I hope we feel so much better for some actual real analysis rather glib posturing and I am sure you'll come back in kind.

TrenterPercenter

#94
It's a narrative device and it is the premise of how the multiverse is traversed. All you are doing here is opining that random acts are superficial for the lols when they are clearly not.

The film is about the main character's unsatisfying life, she makes one big decision to move to America, a risky decision based on love but spends the rest of her life regretting it and thinking "what if" (note she spends her time thing what if but never doing what if).  Decisions in any timeline are related to each other within that timeline, they progress in a predictable sequence to create coherency.  The act of being random disrupts this predictability and makes making the jump to another timeline possible.  It's literally explained several times and is the premise of how the multiverse interacts. 
Spoiler alert
It is also a key message in the film, that predictability breeds predictability, that life being more unpredictable can change events and open new possibilities.  This counter exist alongside the daughters world in which emotionally blunt herself to deal to deal with her mother lack of interest in her.  The bagel is her eating disorder ffs, she puts all of her issues into the bagel because "nothing matters", she is trapped in the predictability of nihilism, the bagel is the blackhole of nihilism and self destruction, jubo tobacky has no structure or security from her mother hence hence why see is verseless she can live and exist in any universe or body but she is still trapped by her nihilism.
[close]

These are not just narrative devices they are the premise of the film and what it is about.  It's like saying the gangstars are just a narrative device in goodfellas.

You didn't get it.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 28, 2022, 05:37:32 PMIt's no more or less noble a position than harrumphing from the vanguard of pop excrement because someone isn't discoursing the badfilm with sufficient reverence. Besides, I thought there was a reasonable point in the middle of mine about how the film feeds on the liberal desire for things to change without really contributing anything other than a shrug and a be-kind-and-understand sentiment. Where's your analysis beyond omg it was rilly good multiverse bumcream?

I'll answer this one also.  Shoehorning the liberal stuff in her is really just proving your issues and not the films, she is a relatively poor immigrant laundromat owner that is about to lose it all because of not paying her taxes, there is no liberal fuzz to any of the film (and I'm generally quite attuned to this).  It's not about changing the world it is about changing you it's basically "it's a wonderful life" told through the multiverse, she gains nothing she didn't have before only what she was destroying, none of which are monetary and all of which are the relationships with her family.  If anything it is showing how the capitalist world dominates and alienates individuals from each other making them predictable, trapped and miserable.  It posits the question what if we actually empathised with other peoples worlds, maybe there is some other form of currency here that is seldom appreciated.

You've got this film so wrong.  Sounds to me like you went in wanting a sci-fi Matrix that explains the mechanics of the multiverse when it is a metaphor for life and the human condition - told in a refreshingly funny and humble way.  I can imagine if you were sat there going "look at those shit flashing buttons! a multiverse traveller wouldn't be using a 2005 bluetooth headset as their technology" but that is where it has clearly flown over your head.

sevendaughters

Hmm I think you're so lost in credulity of what the symbols represent and thinking working that out is automatically deep that you can't see why the film's use of them trivialises their whole point. You can keep screaming that people don't get it if you like if that keeps you warm at night. I've seen how you work on other threads, ain't working here.

sevendaughters

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 06:04:35 PMIf anything it is showing how the capitalist world dominates and alienates individuals from each other making them predictable, trapped and miserable.  It posits the question what if we actually empathised with other peoples worlds, maybe there is some other form of currency here that is seldom appreciated.

No it doesn't. It makes the taxman a baddy before saying they're secretly sad and cuddly. Capital isn't alienating people in this world, it is duty and obligation.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 28, 2022, 06:08:12 PMNo it doesn't. It makes the taxman a baddy before saying they're secretly sad and cuddly. Capital isn't alienating people in this world, it is duty and obligation.

This is nonsense, the taxwoman (in the what we are presented as the real world related to us) is never a baddy she is the same as the protagonist, she is trapped also.....this again is literally explained.  It is bizarre you see the film as some pro-capitalist or liberal handwringing like you want the story to be "she was going to lose her laundromat from not paying her taxes, and she did because that is actually what happens if you don't pay your taxes, the end".

That is a different film, this one was about something else.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 28, 2022, 06:05:17 PMHmm I think you're so lost in credulity of what the symbols represent and thinking working that out is automatically deep that you can't see why the film's use of them trivialises their whole point. You can keep screaming that people don't get it if you like if that keeps you warm at night. I've seen how you work on other threads, ain't working here.

"See how you work in other threads" fucking hell.  Mate go and do something else ffs.

It's a film.

sevendaughters

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 06:16:39 PMThis is nonsense, the taxwoman (in the what we are presented as the real world related to us) is never a baddy she is the same as the protagonist, she is trapped also.....this again is literally explained.  It is bizarre you see the film as some pro-capitalist or liberal handwringing like you want the story to be "she was going to lose her laundromat from not paying her taxes, and she did because that is actually what happens if you don't pay your taxes, the end".

That is a different film, this one was about something else.

The multiverse in this film is an impressionistic device and shorthand to visualise internal conflict and ultimate reconciliation with the emotional realities of the text. No, there is no 'bad guy' as such, it is not as basic as all that, but narratively the tax office is an antagonist who can tritely be dealt with on realising their humanity. I am sure this comforts a lot of people and doesn't uphold the status quo at all.

You keep guessing at how I saw the film or what I wanted it to be - I like completely incoherent films that don't have sensible mechanics. The over-explanations in The Matrix are annoying. I'm just talking about how I thought they played out here. I just thought the way they were used here were trite and the emotional tenor was pretty basic bitch.

Glad you liked it.

Apolgies for the other post and I will probably take your advice.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 28, 2022, 06:25:42 PMThe multiverse in this film is an impressionistic device and shorthand to visualise internal conflict and ultimate reconciliation with the emotional realities of the text. No, there is no 'bad guy' as such, it is not as basic as all that, but narratively the tax office is an antagonist who can tritely be dealt with on realising their humanity. I am sure this comforts a lot of people and doesn't uphold the status quo at all.

I'm not guessing how you saw the film, you are telling me, and to me it seems from what you are saying you didn't get the film..  I assure you if you had a compelling argument (especially about liberal flubber) I'd listen (fuck me I'd be all over it like an ill fitting sweater did you read the Don't Look Now thread?), but you haven't, you've got an opinion, and what appears to be a jaded one (bagel?).  I mean the film isn't about dealing with the tax office??, and how love can conquer paying your taxes? It's wild that you think that is what the film is about (considering how ultimately unimportant that part is) and are focusing on.

You don't like the film, I can only point out to you that your arguments here don't really make sense to the film as I see it, which is probably something to do with our multiverses. 

Perhaps try sticking something up your arse and watching it again.

sevendaughters

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 06:58:08 PMI'm not guessing how you saw the film, you are telling me, and to me it seems from what you are saying you didn't get the film..  I assure you if you had a compelling argument (especially about liberal flubber) I'd listen (fuck me I'd be all over it like an ill fitting sweater did you read the Don't Look Now thread?), but you haven't, you've got an opinion, and what appears to be a jaded one (bagel?).  I mean the film isn't about dealing with the tax office??, and how love can conquer paying your taxes? It's wild that you think that is what the film is about (considering how ultimately unimportant that part is) and are focusing on.

You don't like the film, I can only point out to you that your arguments here don't really make sense to the film as I see it, which is probably something to do with our multiverses.


sigh I don't think the film is 'about' those things: again, I am identifying narrative devices and how they amount to a trivialisation of what it is about (for me: on such slender boughs life breaks, generational and fillial loyalty is fraught, duty creates habituation - but y'know, interpretation and all that) you are telling me that my identification of them is what the film is about.

It absolutely is liberal comfort food like pretty much all big ticket American productions.

QuotePerhaps try sticking something up your arse and watching it again.

It didn't help the first time, but if you insist.

Dickie_Anders

I balk pretty easily at the typical "look aren't we conscientious and liberal" American films and I never got that feeling with this one, bar one or two cringey lines. The main character didn't feel like a sanitised Hollywood version of an immigrant.

I think a lot of the criticism seems to be that underneath the silly aplomb of the premise the actual messaging has been done before, which I agree with. But I think the application of it to this sort of character specifically is pretty unique. Unless someone can point me in the direction of another film centred around a Chinese-American middle-aged woman going through divorce, struggling to accept her child's sexuality, being frustrated by multiple failed ambitions and in general struggling with immigrant life in modern multicultural America. 

The idea that a film can cover all those themes earnestly like this one does and still "lack depth" is strange to me, as some of the criticism seems to suggest. But I can concede that it may seem silly to apply a massive multiversal premise to such mundane struggles. But I think that's probably the whole point, it's a silly film and it revels in it. 

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 28, 2022, 07:08:09 PMsigh I don't think the film is 'about' those things: again, I am identifying narrative devices and how they amount to a trivialisation of what it is about (for me: on such slender boughs life breaks, generational and fillial loyalty is fraught, duty creates habituation - but y'know, interpretation and all that) you are telling me that my identification of them is what the film is about.

But you are channelling all that into the tax office? Which isn't really relevant.  tbh I don't really know what you are on about you've identified some themes, but I don't think they are the main themes of the film ("slender boughs life breaks" wtf?) but regardless it's your demonstration of the "trivialisation" of these themes that I really think is in question.

It's lol random - no that is part of the plot
Ooooh it's not a plot, it's a "narrative device"
Eh? no mate it's part of the plot, it doesn't matter that you just call it something else, it is explained and has relevance to why they are doing it.
It's like the tik-tok
You wot?
It's like tiktok just random stuff
Wait a minute we just went through this
but the bagel is lol random
it isn't it is representing
Spoiler alert
the daughters eating disorder
[close]
Ok well just forget all that what is really important is the tax officer is tritely dealt with by realising her humanity
The tax officer? part of premise that empathising with others and minor part of the film
Yes but <insert needlessly long word>
<shrug>
liberal comfort food mate.

I can't see any trivialisation here, it's a light-hearted silly film with a message that sometimes all you can do is be silly and think about the people around you.  There isn't any distraction from any real life problems, there is no attempt at panacea, if anything it is "a" study on mental health and human condition of regret - I can't fathom the commentary here on liberalism it just doesn't exist in this film, it's like you've made up argument that doesn't exist which is probably why you are struggling to make any sense around it.

You just didn't like the film for some reason you don't need to explain this.


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Dickie_Anders on May 28, 2022, 08:20:50 PMI balk pretty easily at the typical "look aren't we conscientious and liberal" American films and I never got that feeling with this one, bar one or two cringey lines. The main character didn't feel like a sanitised Hollywood version of an immigrant.

Exactly.  It's painting a completely inaccurate impression of the film.  I think even the twee elements in the film work because it quite clearly doesn't take itself seriously but just wanted to present a positive message - and even having to say that makes it sound like this is some "message film" which it isn't either.  It's just daft and fun.

olliebean

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 03:47:54 PMWell the premise where doing random things is key to disrupting sequencing in the universe you are currently in so you can jump to another.

Interpreting that as "lol random" would imply someone not really getting that fundamental part of the plot.

As the person who actually made the lolrandom comment in the first place, I did get that part of it and that wasn't what I was describing as lolrandom. It was more, lol they've got sausage fingers, or lol it's like Ratatouille but with a raccoon.

TrenterPercenter

I dunno these were just other universes and for this kind of thing I thought it was quite funny.  I could take or leave the sausage fingers but the ratatouille raccoon (a call back joke to her misremembering the film earlier on) was great the way it developed.  It's no different from creative jumps in things like Red Dwarf or Futurama in their primes.  Plus it worked because all the actors pulled it off well (even the raccoon, which was purposely not cgi'd and kept a ridiculous puppet).

it was daft but these things both related to the story, there is a whole second order interpretation that we are witnessing the lead characters mental breakdown, either way this isn't really what lolrandom is usually taken as being examples of.

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 28, 2022, 05:54:08 PMIt's a narrative device and it is the premise of how the multiverse is traversed. All you are doing here is opining that random acts are superficial for the lols when they are clearly not.

The film is about the main character's unsatisfying life, she makes one big decision to move to America, a risky decision based on love but spends the rest of her life regretting it and thinking "what if" (note she spends her time thing what if but never doing what if).  Decisions in any timeline are related to each other within that timeline, they progress in a predictable sequence to create coherency.  The act of being random disrupts this predictability and makes making the jump to another timeline possible.  It's literally explained several times and is the premise of how the multiverse interacts. 
Spoiler alert
It is also a key message in the film, that predictability breeds predictability, that life being more unpredictable can change events and open new possibilities.  This counter exist alongside the daughters world in which emotionally blunt herself to deal to deal with her mother lack of interest in her.  The bagel is her eating disorder ffs, she puts all of her issues into the bagel because "nothing matters", she is trapped in the predictability of nihilism, the bagel is the blackhole of nihilism and self destruction, jubo tobacky has no structure or security from her mother hence hence why see is verseless she can live and exist in any universe or body but she is still trapped by her nihilism.
[close]

These are not just narrative devices they are the premise of the film and what it is about.  It's like saying the gangstars are just a narrative device in goodfellas.

You didn't get it.

And even if that wasn't the case, there's nothing wrong with putting in goofy stuff just for laughs. "I didn't find it funny" is a completely reasonable response, but "I didn't find it funny and therefore it is bad (and something something memes)" is just inane.

(And the sausage fingers paid off when that universe allowed Evelyn to use her feet with unusual dexterity, so even that wasn't just some throwaway bit of whimsy.)

I have criticisms of the film (unclear plotting in the denouement, an overlong second act, far too much exposition and then weirdly repeating that exposition shortly afterwards, and I didn't like the bagel either - that actually did seem like lolrandom whimsy to me) and there are plenty more valid criticisms to make besides, but "Urgh it's lolrandom" isn't one. At least, not as anything other than a personal preference.

TrenterPercenter

It is a very weird film to provoke such a reaction.  I was hyper critical of Don't Look Now because the characters were so over-cooked and despite being a farce it took itself too seriously (leading too, as predicted, it becoming instantly forgettable and fileable away under Hollywood fluff on issues).

This film isn't trying to save the world or make any such grand statements, it's just a look on life and the perils of looking inward and all the psychological gubbins that comes with numbing oneself to the world.  It isn't trainspotting and it isn't trying to tell an extreme tale of alienation, just like Indiana Jones isn't really telling the extreme story of the Nazi's.  The bagel seems wholly relevant to me both acting as the black hole and something to store problems in, but maybe I've just got bit more insight here in how things like that work.

There is a lot going on in this film that deserves a better analysis than the superficial lolrandom or liberalism (which is just bizarre).  It's anarchic and daft, not sure these are terrible things in trying to communicate it's messages which are ultimately twee, but are as another poster pointed out very much needed at this time.  It was also brilliantly acted, I could have just watched Yeoh, Hsu, Wang and Hong just do the family schtick for 2hrs and been happy.

olliebean

The thing which most bothered me about the sausage fingers, actually, was the cutaway to the moment when evolution had decided that sausage fingers, rather than evolutionarily advantageous normal fingers, would survive. As though evolution had just picked (lol) randomly, rather than by natural selection as it actually works. One can almost imagine some anti-Darwin evangelist citing it as an example of how little sense the evolutionary argument makes, and if everything arises as a result of random mutation how come we don't all have sausage fingers?

Dickie_Anders

I'll be honest, I think it was just a joke

olliebean

The sausage fingers universe was a joke, and I could have run with that. Trying to justify its existence, and getting the justification so wrong, just killed it for me.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: olliebean on May 29, 2022, 11:29:35 AMThe thing which most bothered me about the sausage fingers, actually, was the cutaway to the moment when evolution had decided that sausage fingers, rather than evolutionarily advantageous normal fingers, would survive. As though evolution had just picked (lol) randomly, rather than by natural selection as it actually works. One can almost imagine some anti-Darwin evangelist citing it as an example of how little sense the evolutionary argument makes, and if everything arises as a result of random mutation how come we don't all have sausage fingers?

<Picard-head-in-hand.jpg>

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 29, 2022, 07:58:59 AMThe bagel seems wholly relevant to me both acting as the black hole and something to store problems in

I missed your observation that it's a metaphor (or literalisation ad absurdum) for Joy's comfort eating in the face of depression, which is a really good one, and I hereby retract my complaint about the bagel.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mister Six on May 30, 2022, 02:41:08 PMI missed your observation that it's a metaphor (or literalisation ad absurdum) for Joy's comfort eating in the face of depression, which is a really good one, and I hereby retract my complaint about the bagel.

Yes you might have noticed that her mother relatively early on in the absence of of being able to communicate proper with her daughter tells her that she needs to eat more healthly food because she is getting fat. 

There are loads of beautifully tragic bits in the film that Yeoh recalls, we shouldn't necessarily take everything that happens as a thing really occurring it is all at the same time imo very much a representation of her breakdown and realisation of what is important in life.

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 30, 2022, 05:48:28 PMYes you might have noticed that her mother relatively early on in the absence of of being able to communicate proper with her daughter tells her that she needs to eat more healthly food because she is getting fat. 

There are loads of beautifully tragic bits in the film that Yeoh recalls, we shouldn't necessarily take everything that happens as a thing really occurring it is all at the same time imo very much a representation of her breakdown and realisation of what is important in life.

Why not both?

I forgot about the calling her daughter fat thing because that's just what so many Chinese parents are like to their kids, often regardless of how much weight they have put on. I just registered it as a lovely little detail and didn't take it as an actual indication that Joy was eating too much.

Mrs Six is Chinese, and spotted loads of authentic details in the writing, dialogue and even set design. It's a very lovingly crafted movie.

SOMK

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 29, 2022, 07:58:59 AMIt is a very weird film to provoke such a reaction.  I was hyper critical of Don't Look Now because the characters were so over-cooked and despite being a farce it took itself too seriously (leading too, as predicted, it becoming instantly forgettable and fileable away under Hollywood fluff on issues).

This film isn't trying to save the world or make any such grand statements, it's just a look on life and the perils of looking inward and all the psychological gubbins that comes with numbing oneself to the world.  It isn't trainspotting and it isn't trying to tell an extreme tale of alienation, just like Indiana Jones isn't really telling the extreme story of the Nazi's.  The bagel seems wholly relevant to me both acting as the black hole and something to store problems in, but maybe I've just got bit more insight here in how things like that work.

There is a lot going on in this film that deserves a better analysis than the superficial lolrandom or liberalism (which is just bizarre).  It's anarchic and daft, not sure these are terrible things in trying to communicate it's messages which are ultimately twee, but are as another poster pointed out very much needed at this time.  It was also brilliantly acted, I could have just watched Yeoh, Hsu, Wang and Hong just do the family schtick for 2hrs and been happy.

Talking about art in terms of narrative devises, premises and so on, is a problematic critical framework in and of itself because you are reducing various parts to functionality, much like if you were discussing a car engine (granted culture is fucked because it's cultivated by institutionalised educational systems which presume materialistic frameworks that deny the possibility of a transcendental quality). This film is phenomenal because it transcends such concerns, like how the sausage fingers universe is a joke, grotesque, humanising, whilst it communicates some of a the fundemental values the film is conveying all at once, but it's also completely unique on it's own terms, it 'functions' on its own, but it also fundamentally does something in the film no other part does. I certainly wouldn't call the ultimate conclusion 'twee', happily ever after is only twee if the richness of what came before makes it feel unearned or if it's at odds with the film itself or the subject matter, recovering from suicidal ideation and black depression and embracing life itself is only twee because of how the mass culture exploits these things with shite like 'mental health awareness day', such that anything that tries to be earnest and stir emotions (heavens forbid) can be dismissed as trite or twee just because mass advertising culture constantly burglarises genuine heartfelt culture. Twee is how reality TV is edited so that H-from steps milking a dog gets reframed as a heroes journey southpark-esque "I learned something today" fake cathartis to cover up the often exploitative bottom-of-the barrel banging-it-out nature of such endeavours, that's 'twee'.

'Twee' is essentially what Greenberg called 'kitsch', as opposed to the avant-grade, it's a hollowed out aspect of mass culture that has the artifice of expanding consciousness (that is to say provoking new kind of awareness and by extension compassion in the viewer) but none of the substance, this film is gloriously avant-garde, fairly sure you'd have to breakout your Jordowsky DVD collection to find a 'major' English language film as avant grade as this (like maybe the last few minutes of Speed Racer could give one part of this film a run for its money, maaaaybe), it is amazing and heartening the fucked up world culture we live in can even produce something like this, I didn't think we had in it us as.

Probably the best adaptation we're ever going to get of Grant Morrison's 'The Invisibles'.

Mister Six

Quote from: SOMK on May 30, 2022, 06:41:21 PMWords

Probably my favourite CaB post in recent memory, except for this:

Quote from: SOMK on May 30, 2022, 06:41:21 PMProbably the best adaptation we're ever going to get of Grant Morrison's 'The Invisibles'.

Actually, that was The Lego Movie.

TrenterPercenter

@SOMK that pretty much sums up how I felt about it.  Great post!