Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial

[TrenterPercenter]

bit grim all this is it.  I'm not particularly interested in it all but I've mentioned before this will collapse into misogyny, of course it would, and counter to this it will fall into misandry.  Simple fact is both men and women are very capable of lying, abusing and in lots of cases are not reliable witnesses to their own crimes.

Moving away from these reductionist and sexist notions of humans is key.

[TrenterPercenter]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/22/metoo-is-over-if-we-dont-listen-to-imperfect-victims-like-amber-heard

They perhaps forget that the project of #MeToo – the whole point – was to help imperfect victims. Those who were wearing the wrong thing, or were drunk, or were promiscuous, or loved their perpetrator, or had previously broken the law, or had lied before, or had a bad character, or seemed "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty", as David Brock once memorably described Anita Hill, who testified during Clarence Thomas's US supreme court confirmation hearings in 1991. In fact, perfect victims have never needed feminism, partly because they barely exist.

It's shite like this that absolutely needs binning off "wearing the wrong thing" is the sign of an "imperfect victim".

I think the #Metoo movement is important and this authors last paragraph resonates but the rest of it is appalling doublethink. 

[druss]

Even if Depp is a genuine victim of domestic abuse, the publicity of this trial and whatever ruling it ends with is going to result in more than one woman being killed by their partner.

How is that?

[Pink Gregory]

How is that?

Because if Heard *is* lying, it's a high profile case, spread out all over the press and social media, of a woman lying about being domestically abused.

Granted, that is a thing that happens, has happened and will continue to happen, but I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that after seeing this play out in public so much, that an abused woman might think twice against speaking out as a result? 

If it is the case that Heard is making baseless accusations, theb at the very least she hasn't done women a favour.

and if Depp in fact was abused, would it embolden male victims of domestic violence to speak out?  You would hope so, but at this point of sheer publicity I don't know if it would improve things for male victims without making things worse for female victims.

But then every other factor that goes into domestic violence is far more important than a trial on Court TV.  I just think it's going to have an effect on the public because it *is* so public.

And even then, it's not a charge of domestic violence that's being argued, it's a charge of defamation.

[druss]

I see your point. Whether she was the abused or the abuser (from the blatant lies and gaslighting I suspect the latter), public opinion is that she is lying about it, and that alone might make people less inclined to speak out.

[phantom_power]

They are both actors who make a living pretending to have emotions they don't really have. They can both afford very expensive lawyers who are very good at making their case seem as solid as possible and the other's as weak as possible. I don't know how anyone can be the slightest bit confident to state an opinion about either of them or who is lying/telling the truth or whatever. And why we should be expected to

[druss]

They are both actors who make a living pretending to have emotions they don't really have. They can both afford very expensive lawyers who are very good at making their case seem as solid as possible and the other's as weak as possible. I don't know how anyone can be the slightest bit confident to state an opinion about either of them or who is lying/telling the truth or whatever. And why we should be expected to

One of them is on tape admitting to hitting the other. She also spent seemingly the entirety of their relationship recording him but never caught him saying/doing anything similar. That's enough for most people.

[bgmnts]

They are both actors who make a living pretending to have emotions they don't really have. They can both afford very expensive lawyers who are very good at making their case seem as solid as possible and the other's as weak as possible. I don't know how anyone can be the slightest bit confident to state an opinion about either of them or who is lying/telling the truth or whatever. And why we should be expected to

Except one is on tape being abusive, admitting to being abusive and laughing about the fact she can get away with it.

If this was the other way around we'd rightfully be saying fuck off to any character assasination and justificston for abusive wouldn't we?

[TrenterPercenter]

If this was the other way around we'd rightfully be saying fuck off to any character assasination and justificston for abusive wouldn't we?

Just an imperfect person bgmnts...

[JaDanketies]

I thought, "well, I suppose it's good that there's this high-profile male victim of DV. I was a male victim of DV and I hope other people don't feel so alone and can escape a bit faster than I did."

And then I go on Twitter and I discover that my views are held by barbarian wife-beaters and anyone who thinks Heard is not a saint is a twat.

Seems obvious to me that they're probably both dickheads. I mean, I didn't respond to violence with violence over >99% of the time, but Depp being a confirmed cocaine-addicted alcoholic makes me think he might be slightly faster to temper than me. I'd be surprised if you could be a cocaine-addicted alcoholic and put up with the stuff he said he put up with and still be a non-abusive partner.

I think domestic violence is probably mutual in a lot more cases than ideologues would like to think. Two dickheads together, getting high off rage. Amber Heard or Jonny Depp don't necessarily have to be victims. I'm not saying that it's definitely mutual, either, one of them might have started things literally every time. Not convinced that the justice system will get to the bottom of it either.

Assuming she is a dickhead and it was either mutual or led by her, Heard can get a special hall-of-fame dickhead mention for pretending that she's not a dickhead and is a victim, going around pretending to be an authority on battered wives, fucking psycho shit

[AllisonSays]

According to the charity Living Without Abuse, domestic violence leads to 'two women being murdered each week and 30 men per year' in the UK - I think the first statistic is a slight recontextualization of the fact that two women are killed by current or former partners a week. In that context opining about the mutuality of domestic violence seems slightly wrongheaded, for me.

[Paul Calf]

That's a really confusing way of presenting that statistic. Why wouldn't they say '104 women per year vs 30 men'?

I wish people would take a bit more care when presenting statistics.

[JaDanketies]

Alarming statistics about women facing more risks from violent men than men face from violent women do not mean that DV is not mutual "in a lot more cases than ideologues would like to believe," in fact it's a substantially different question.

The Royal College of Physicians goes further than me and says it is "most commonly reciprocal." 

In fairness I can see that a lot of the Google results are from domestic violence charities and say that actually it's never mutual and in fact it's always men who do it. This was cherry-picked, not only for agreeing with me, but also for being the only obviously ok source.

...

also tbh now I feel like even suggesting that Amber Heard and Jonny Depp could be equally to blame and that nobody wants to ever think both partners are shitheads is taken as somehow minimising the murder of 104 women every year, so y'know DV against men is kinda still a very tough subject to talk about

[TrenterPercenter]

According to the charity Living Without Abuse, domestic violence leads to 'two women being murdered each week and 30 men per year' in the UK - I think the first statistic is a slight recontextualization of the fact that two women are killed by current or former partners a week. In that context opining about the mutuality of domestic violence seems slightly wrongheaded, for me.

The ONS says 177 women were victim of homicide last year (and the year before.  Men and women combined total domestic homicides were 115 which is on trend for the average number of victims per year for the last 5 years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021#main-points

You have a 6 in a million chance of being murdered if you are a woman in England and Wales and 14 in a million if you are a man.

[JaDanketies]

You have a 1 in 6 million chance of being murdered if you are a woman in the UK and 1 in 14 million if you are a man.  Whilst women are twice as likely to be murdered then men, it is still incredibly rare for it to happen.

You got it the wrong way round, men are twice as likely to be killed as women.

"The homicide rate was 9.9 per million population, with the rate for males (14 per million population) more than twice that for females (6 per million population)."

Men are always at a higher risk of all violent crime other than sexual assault than women. And probably always will be. Manly manly men, drinking and fighting and stabbing each other

[TrenterPercenter]

That's a really confusing way of presenting that statistic. Why wouldn't they say '104 women per year vs 30 men'?

I wish people would take a bit more care when presenting statistics.

It's an emotive way of presenting the data, "every week" is relatable, imagine 2 people you know dying every week.  It is hard to contextualise what 104 people are compared to 68 million because it is such a small number.  Saying and one man every fortnight still sounds bad because it is relatable, so it gets presented over a year.

[TrenterPercenter]

You got it the wrong way round, men are twice as likely to be killed as women.

"The homicide rate was 9.9 per million population, with the rate for males (14 per million population) more than twice that for females (6 per million population)."

Men are always at a higher risk of all violent crime other than sexual assault than women. And probably always will be. Manly manly men, drinking and fighting and stabbing each other

Good spot, have removed.

[Butchers Blind]

Well, I just hope when this is all over they can put it behind them and be friends again.

[Pimhole]

Here's that end game in action

[Twonty Gostelow]

Manly manly men, drinking and fighting and stabbing each other

Also fart-lighting tragedies.

[MojoJojo]

I see your point. Whether she was the abused or the abuser (from the blatant lies and gaslighting I suspect the latter),

It's not either/or.

Being single after a long term relationship broke down (with kids), I've really lost the ability to understand why Depp/Heard stayed together. I mean my relationship should have probably ended earlier, but there was stuff like children and money to make it harder. And I understand that it really isn't easy for most people to escape domestic violence.

But with Depp and Heard - they don't have kids and are each extremely wealthy. I'm they have multiple homes already to move into. So I just don't get why they stayed together in what seems to be such a toxic relationship.

I guess we're only hearing the bad parts though.

[Kankurette]

Not thinking Depp is entirely innocent does not = thinking Heard is a saint.

[Noodle Lizard]

But with Depp and Heard - they don't have kids and are each extremely wealthy. I'm they have multiple homes already to move into. So I just don't get why they stayed together in what seems to be such a toxic relationship.

They can be very difficult to get out of, for countless reasons. I won't speculate what theirs were, but I imagine fear and co-dependency play a role in most instances.

In my case, my partner knew exactly how to coax every emotion she wanted out of me - so I'd go from utterly miserable, to fearing for my safety, to pity and wanting to take care of her. People like that can make a certain type of person feel an immense responsibility towards them and them alone to the point where, emotionally speaking, you're on an island with them and they're controlling the weather.

[Dickie_Anders]

I don't know if anyone else is pathetic enough to keep up with this on a day-to-day basis, but the Doc Brown-esque character evaluating Johnny yesterday was hilarious. Just a genius comedy character.

I don't know how anyone can see any kind of wider political thing going on in this trial, these two are too far removed from reality for that. Depp must have been a fucking nightmare to deal with. Just a rich raging addict, I have no sympathy for him at all. I'd sympathise with Heard but it looks like she blatantly falsified a photo of herself with a bruise and also said she'd donate 7 mill to charity and just didn't, lol. The whole thing is obviously a disgustingly expensive farce

[Lord Mandrake]

Pathetic cunt over here, I've binged the whole trial and even got into the legalbytes channel and some body language psueds. It's like a decent Netflix doc.

If I'm on the jury I say Depp is a victim of domestic abuse and defamation. Heards team have paraded a a series of weirdo 'experts' including the absolute maniac mentioned above  and Ambers chums. Their photographic evidence is sketchy as fuck and the widly shown video shows the extent of Depps violence, slamming some cabinets.

She's on tape instigating violence and berating him for conflict avoidence and frankly, on the stand, she came across as a highly manipulative sociopath.

[druss]

The guy yesterday was fucking amazing.

[Noodle Lizard]

Can't believe they called Cosmo Kramer to testify!

(link for those who have a life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po1URDm7l2Q)

[Mister Six]

Can't believe they called Cosmo Kramer to testify!

(link for those who have a life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po1URDm7l2Q)

My god, that was awkward.

[Noodle Lizard]

It would've been a bit broad in a sitcom, wouldn't it?

As much as I think there probably is a lot more nuance to it all than the Deppheads suggest, the quality of Heard's defense has been very poor. I don't know what they were thinking bringing that old lettuce in.

[druss]

They perhaps forget that the project of #MeToo – the whole point – was to help imperfect victims. Those who were wearing the wrong thing, or were drunk, or were promiscuous, or loved their perpetrator, or had previously broken the law, or had lied before, or had a bad character, or seemed "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty", as David Brock once memorably described Anita Hill, who testified during Clarence Thomas's US supreme court confirmation hearings in 1991. In fact, perfect victims have never needed feminism, partly because they barely exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/22/metoo-is-over-if-we-dont-listen-to-imperfect-victims-like-amber-heard

It's shite like this that absolutely needs binning off "wearing the wrong thing" is the sign of an "imperfect victim".

I think the #Metoo movement is important and this authors last paragraph resonates but the rest of it is appalling doublethink. 

Came to post that they showed a video yesterday that had two apparently different photographs of Heard, one showing a bruise and one not, and in the video they super-imposed the photos onto each other and they were exactly the same photo but one had been edited and one hadn't. If the recordings weren't enough for anyone, that's literally cast iron proof that she faked at least one photo of abuse, making it difficult to believe any of them.

Anyway, I glanced at the quoted post before I hit reply and it struck me that the description of the "imperfect victim" is far more applicable to Depp.