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March 29, 2024, 10:51:20 AM

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GC Rowling's Battlefield TERF, part 2: Fantastic Wheeshts and Where to Find Them

Started by Mister Six, April 14, 2022, 09:39:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ferris

Like I say, maybe it's all a misunderstanding in good faith but frankly I don't feel like I'm missing any pearls by applying a BAMO approach.

Kankurette

I don't think JKR was writing in good faith, and even taking her politics out of the equation she's still relying on tired old tropes about trans people.

The Bees

The serial killer in Troubled Blood isn't the most rounded character ever written, most of the info about him comes from one page where the detective is reading a biography and it just sums up about a dozen basic facts. Most of them are standard serial killer tropes (hates his mother, etc) but there are some unusual ones in there, and the fact that she decides to give us no more info about him makes them seem all the more important.

Basically, he masturbates while wearing women's underwear, he once wore a woman's coat while singing karaoke and everyone around noted that he came out of his shell a lot more while doing so, and then there's the part at the end of the book where he gloats about women trusting him when he dresses as one because they think he is gay or trans ("a little bit queer" is how I think it was phrased in the book.)

So yeah, he's three things all at once. He has a fetish for women's clothing, he wears women's clothes to trick his victims, and the coat story hints at the possibility that he may be more comfortable as a woman and therefore may actually be trans. The character only makes sense if you believe that it's possible to be all three at the same time, and that makes so much more sense when you remember that JKR has posh lunches with the kind of people who constantly tweet about how trans people are all autogynephiles AND doing it to trick women And somehow simultaneously actually trans.

Seriously, that coat story is so weirdly placed too. You get one page of info on the guy in the whole book and it's all "he masturbates like this", "he kills this type of woman more" and then.... "he wore a coat once. It was a woman's coat, that's weird right?"

There are other weird things littered around the book too. The detectives discuss the victim having an argument with a women she apparently didn't know around midnight before getting into an unmarked van with her. They agree that, despite having just met her and the fact that the only social interaction the two people ever had was a massive fight, it was likely that the unwritten code of womanly trust was strong enough that she was happy to get into a van with a stranger she hated (as someone who is AFAB I can tell you - am I fuck getting into a weird van with a woman I don't know and also hate just because I don't want to pay for a taxi). The detectives also hilariously come to the conclusion that this was probably one of those oh so common serial killers that dress as a woman rather than an actual woman, despite there being no reason to think this right now.

It was the first adult JKR book I ever read and, yeah, I only read it to see if it was transphobic (it is.) Something that stuck out though was the sheer laziness in the writing, the way that the book was so long but contained hardly any information on anything (and that any info that was drip fed to the reader would later be repeated over and over, lest you missed it or tried to think for yourself at any point). Most of the book isn't about the murder at all, but continues some boring middle class soap opera crap with the main characters that I assume has been running through the previous books. The best part is when the rugged arsehole detective protagonist has a backstory where it turns out his unlikability comes down to his dad not spending enough time with him as a child because he's Mick Jagger.

Anyway, the actual murder side of the story is so bare, and somehow so long, it reads more like a first draft. There's a scene where son of Jagger does his Christmas shopping and the decorations in Liberty get a more in depth description than the murderer did. The book did seem rush released, she said something stupid on Twitter, wrote that essay and then about 4 months later.... book. Like I say, I've not read her other books so I have nothing to compare it to but I find it hard to believe they're all this lazy when they come from someone so successful.

somersetchris

Quote from: Stigdu on June 15, 2022, 11:40:15 PMNot at all. Not intentionally, anyway. How am I trolling?

There's a word isn't there for someone who asks relentlessly disingenuous questions and and then gets all upset when other people get frustrated with it. Is it sealioning?

somersetchris

Quote from: Barry Admin on June 15, 2022, 11:49:23 PMPersonally I think it's a shame someone can't be at odds with the general tone without being immediately suspected to be a troll. If people do think that, they can stop feeding you or put you on ignore :-) and we'll see what happens.

It depends, whether you think that person is coming from a genuine place or this is going to end up in a 'just asking questions' type discussion. I haven't responded that much but I have my own feelings about it - maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I think when someone jumps into a 100-page thread and says 'what does GC mean?' and 'how is JKR transphobic?' - then refuting the evidence that is given - then I become very suspicious. You're in the transphobia thread, you could just read it to find out the answers. I find most of Stidgu's questions to be incredibly disingenuous. I mostly haven't engaged because you've asked us not to but it's been my suspicion since day one and that's my 2p's worth.

somersetchris

#425
Quote from: Stigdu on June 15, 2022, 08:16:42 PMSomeone's been watching Dressed to Kill! I'd hardly call that part extremely transphobic.

Given that it is very hard to argue that JK Rowling isn't transphobic - just look at her Twitter feed - do you really think that she isn't trying to make a point by having a male character dress as a woman and enter women's spaces in order to murder them? That is the GCs' main scare tactic, they're constantly going on about it. 'Women's spaces' is probably their most commonly used phrase.

And yes it is ripping off Dressed to Kill, a film from 50 odd years ago, so that makes her a bad writer as well.

Edit: I hadn't read up to the flounce by this point, so my recent posts are now superfluous, apologies to everyone!


Cold Meat Platter


The Bees

Quote from: somersetchris on June 16, 2022, 11:25:44 PMWhere does she get her incredible ideas from

The serial killer hates his mother, kills sex workers and kills according to some weird logic involving the Zodiac. He and the detective have a psychological showdown at the end. 10/10, the greatest film of 1991 so far.

Dr Rock

I don't think stigdu was a troll, and some people were pretty mean to him. Maybe he could've learnt something.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

I am also uncomfortable with people assuming bad faith on the part of someone who just may not know. The trans posters here are of course not obligated to educate people or even engage with people asking basic/stupid questions. But this isn't a trans specific forum, it's a comedy forum. We're gonna get people who don't know.

How many of us would have bothered to think or learn about trans issues if Graham Linehan hadn't lost his fucking mind about them?

Pimhole

Quote from: The Bees on June 16, 2022, 10:19:06 AMThe best part is when the rugged arsehole detective protagonist has a backstory where it turns out his unlikability comes down to his dad not spending enough time with him as a child because he's Mick Jagger.


Wait, literally? That's... wow.

Thanks for your long post by the way. I love finding out how shit JKR's books are without having to read them.


phantom_power

Cormorant Strike is also a terrible fucking name for a character. But then Harry Potter showed she isn't great at that


Barry Admin

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 17, 2022, 12:36:02 PMI am also uncomfortable with people assuming bad faith on the part of someone who just may not know. The trans posters here are of course not obligated to educate people or even engage with people asking basic/stupid questions. But this isn't a trans specific forum, it's a comedy forum. We're gonna get people who don't know.

How many of us would have bothered to think or learn about trans issues if Graham Linehan hadn't lost his fucking mind about them?

Unfortunately it's a recurring situation on CaB that people think that they can nail previous posters/trolls with a high degree of accuracy.

Seems to me like this can often be more disruptive than the "trolling" though.

Unfortunately there are demented people who will play on the charitable nature of CaB posters to cause shit, but new posters should generally be given the benefit of the doubt. There's not really much keeping the place going, it's amazing that it still is.


The Bees

Quote from: Pimhole on June 17, 2022, 12:52:46 PMWait, literally? That's... wow.


Technically his father is "Johnny Rokeby", a multimillionaire rockstar with tight trousers whose band is still going after 50 years, any similarities with real persons either living or dead are purely coincidental etc etc. But otherwise yeah.

idunnosomename

annoys me how she co-opts Blue Öyster Cult references into her cormorant shite books. like really deep cuts too. hope she paid them and all their lyricists at least

SEEPAGE FROM DEEP, BLACK, BRITTLE
EXPERIMENTS WHICH FAILED
AND TRANSFORMATIONS TOO HARD TO FIND.
"I WAS OVERCOME AND TURNED TO RED."
DUSTER'S DUST BECAME THE SALE.
LUCIFER THE LIGHT. A RESTLESS MOTION
CAME TO MOVE AND THEN SUBSIDE.
IN ENDLESS KNOCKING AT THE DOOR-
IT'S TIME. TYRANNY & MVTATION.
TYRANNY & MVTATION

lol can guess what she reads into that

Pink Gregory

Quote from: The Bees on June 18, 2022, 01:01:39 AMTechnically his father is "Johnny Rokeby", a multimillionaire rockstar with tight trousers whose band is still going after 50 years, any similarities with real persons either living or dead are purely coincidental etc etc. But otherwise yeah.

Johnny 'Rock-a-Bye'?

for fuck's sake


bgmnts

Quote from: Blumf on June 16, 2022, 12:36:02 AM(somewhat back on topic)

How old is the murdering cross dresser trope? Off the top of my head I can think of Psycho as the earliest, and that even goes out of it's way to note that Norman Bates isn't a transvestite, just nutty about him mother.

Silence of the Lambs is an interesting one, doesnt the killer think he's trans but actually isn't?

Kelvin

Quote from: bgmnts on June 20, 2022, 01:04:54 AMSilence of the Lambs is an interesting one, doesnt the killer think he's trans but actually isn't?

I haven't read the book, but in the film, the killer can't pick an identity (not specifically a gender), and Clarice draws a distinction between the killer and "transsexuals" (her language), who she says are typically passive. It's obviously still a problematic depiction, though, as the character struggling with their identity (including their gender), is a serial killer, and in no way sympathetic. To all intents and purposes, the character is trans, and would be viewed by audiences as trans, even if they tried to write around this in the script.

Interestingly, when the film came out, lgbt+ groups protested the film on the basis that they believed the killer was gay and the film homophobic. The Director, Jonathan Demme said in 1991:

QuoteWe knew it was tremendously important to not have Gumb misinterpreted by the audience as being homosexual. That would be a complete betrayal of the themes of the movie. And a disservice to gay people. [Gumb] is someone who is so completely, completely horrified by who he is that his desperation to become someone completely other is manifested in his ill-guided attempts at transvestism, and behaviour and mannerisms that can be interpreted as gay.

He later went on to make Philadelphia, saying (about Silence):

QuoteJuan Botas, who was one of the inspirations for "Philadelphia" said, "You can't imagine what it's like to be a 12-year-old gay kid, and you go to the movies all the time and whenever you see a gay character, they're either a ridiculous comic-relief caricature, or a demented killer. It's very hard growing up gay and being exposed to all these stereotypes." That registered with me in a big way." It's now become a part of the dialogue on stereotypical portrayals of gays in movies.

https://www.slashfilm.com/659186/the-silence-of-the-lambs-controversy-explained/

Mister Six

Quote from: Barry Admin on June 17, 2022, 03:58:26 PMUnfortunately it's a recurring situation on CaB that people think that they can nail previous posters/trolls with a high degree of accuracy.

Seems to me like this can often be more disruptive than the "trolling" though.

Unfortunately there are demented people who will play on the charitable nature of CaB posters to cause shit, but new posters should generally be given the benefit of the doubt. There's not really much keeping the place going, it's amazing that it still is.

I was thinking about this, and I reckon that if anyone sees anyone asking these sorts of questions in the future, they can direct those people to my inbox, where I'll calmly and clearly explain everything to the best of my ability, so that these threads don't get clogged up with arguing, and any genuine newcomers don't get scared off.

king_tubby

Quote from: bgmnts on June 20, 2022, 01:04:54 AMSilence of the Lambs is an interesting one, doesnt the killer think he's trans but actually isn't?

The book goes in to this in some depth (long time since I read it caveat, mind) with the psychologist presenting all kinds of evidence to show that Buffalo Bill is not trans.

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: Better Midlands on June 20, 2022, 12:50:29 AMHilary Clinton on JK Rowling





It's funny how when liberal politicians make these pragmatic appeals about "winning elections at any cost" it's always a pretext for throwing minorities under the bus and promoting reactionary talking points. The "any cost" part never extends to, say, bolstering public services or making it easier for ordinary people to pay their bills or anything manifestly popular like that. Nothing that would require any political courage or conviction or positive campaigning. Just smugly punching down at the most vulnerable people in society like the coward scum they are.

phantom_power

The logical extension to "win at any cost" is to be slightly better than the opposition rather than striving for anything better. To give people what they think they want, not what they might actually need. To pander to the fear and hate spread by the press rather than inspire hope and solidarity

Also, I don't think Democrats, or Labour, or even "hard" left people, elevate these causes. They just respond when people act like cunts to minorities

Barry Admin

Quote from: Mister Six on June 20, 2022, 03:09:09 AMI was thinking about this, and I reckon that if anyone sees anyone asking these sorts of questions in the future, they can direct those people to my inbox, where I'll calmly and clearly explain everything to the best of my ability, so that these threads don't get clogged up with arguing, and any genuine newcomers don't get scared off.

That's a very kind offer, thank you!

Pimhole

Quote from: Mister Six on June 20, 2022, 03:09:09 AMI was thinking about this, and I reckon that if anyone sees anyone asking these sorts of questions in the future, they can direct those people to my inbox, where I'll calmly and clearly explain everything to the best of my ability, so that these threads don't get clogged up with arguing, and any genuine newcomers don't get scared off.

I mean, they could just read the full threads.

jobotic

Worth checking if they post in threads about any comedians other than transphobic ones.