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Shooting #24601

Started by bgmnts, May 15, 2022, 10:28:22 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

QDRPHNC


Ferris

Quote from: Zetetic on May 27, 2022, 01:54:25 PMGiven everything discussed - the endemic institutional racism and classism of America, the huge number and diversity of guns already in people's hands (legally and otherwise), the nature of the US's two party system - what does "stricter gun control", of the kind that can actually be enacted and will then be implemented, actually look like and what effect can it have?

State level: magazine capacity limits, safe storage laws (ie you need a safe and trigger locks), restrictions on ammunition purchases and blocking the sale of new body armour. Licensing for open/conceal carry, and increasing age limits to 21. Federally: a buy-back program with no moratorium that pays $100 over the retail price no questions asked, mandatory universal background checks with no gun show loopholes, and red flag laws that means the ATF can take your guns.

It won't stop everything because the place is so militarized (you can make your own ballistic armour and modify firearms if you really want to), but pass all of that and it'll make it harder for at risk people to arm themselves and you'll see a difference. That would have stopped Sandy Hook and Columbine (stole firearms from parents because they weren't locked up) and this shooting in Texas (underage).

The problem is that so much of this is regulated at the state level and every Governor/senator wants to be president. That means they have to debase themselves in front of the Republican primary electorate (who are functionally insane), so while you might make some progress federally (though maybe not) progress will stall in the states and you end up with a patchwork of laws. If someone wants to, they can cross state lines with firearms that are technically illegal but basically impossible to detect until it's too late.

As @buzby points out, nutcases will pivot to pistols or pistol calibre carbines so then you have to start trying to restrict them... it's a mess.

Uncle TechTip

I feel like I don't want to hear anything the police have to say about this, they can't be trusted. Instead the families, witnesses, survivors at the school.

Enact a gradually rising age limit on bullets like New Zealand and smoking.

Zetetic

Quote from: Paul Calf on May 27, 2022, 02:34:58 PMIt can't be solved in a week with a couple of laws, but it's better to start than not start, right?
I don't know.

I increasingly do think that the main effect of gun control in the United States has been to criminalise their open possession by certain groups, and that it's not really possible to do much more than that given the conditions of the United States.

They're so limited in what laws you can make, and the implementation and enforcement of those laws is bound up with institutions and existing systems that are thoroughly discriminatory.



Zetetic

If we now see an end to the legal gun show loophole, I imagine it'll be because a) the relevant constituencies have now had enough time to accept that the background checks are as thoroughly orientated towards keeping legal guns out of the hands of black and hispanic people as their design implied, and b) it'll still be trivial to maintain a practical loophole anyway.

prelektric

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 27, 2022, 09:34:26 AMHere's a pile of worthless, self serving vague hippy verbosity from Russell Brand on this subject that is completely inadequate and helps in no way (on that last point it's a lot like this post from me mocking it).

'for me, the gun law aspect of this and the firearms stuff of this.. I'm sure there are many many opinions on that.. but I feel we have a deeper conversation'


Jesus H Christ, this is potentially the worst, utterly pointless hand-wringing self-serving shit I've seen for a good while. He really is a shit.

Cheers for that - I'm off for an alcohol chemical cosh just to forget I watched it.

idunnosomename

Quote from: touchingcloth on May 27, 2022, 04:43:54 PMThe one time I visited the US, it was always in my mind that literally anyone could have been carrying a hidden gun.
i bet it was you dirty old bollocks

Cerys

Breaking news from the BBC -

Quote"It was the wrong decision" for police to delay tackling gunman who shot 19 children and two adults in their classrooms, says Texas security chief

YOU DON'T FUCKING SAY!

steve98

Lawyer's ears pricking up.

JamesTC


WhoMe

No indication yet on why the police believed the active shooter phase was over, other than it gave them an excuse not to go in and challenge the guy whilst waiting for backup...
Evidently the only thing that'll stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun who doesn't shit his pants when push comes to shove.

Dex Sawash

Quote from: buzby on May 27, 2022, 09:27:58 AMThere were also devices called Drop In Auto Sears

There's a whole store for those at the mall


shoulders

Quote from: WhoMe on May 27, 2022, 10:35:42 PMNo indication yet on why the police believed the active shooter phase was over, other than it gave them an excuse not to go in and challenge the guy whilst waiting for backup...
Evidently the only thing that'll stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun who doesn't shit his pants when push comes to shove.

A person with no emotions. A robot. Robots with guns in school car parks.


Alberon

We can relax everyone. The Good Guy With A Gun idea actually works. Though in this case it was a woman.

QuoteA female party-goer stopped a potential mass shooting in the US when she pulled out her gun and fatally shot a man who had opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle on a crowd, police say.

The gunman had been asked to stop speeding shortly before he came back and targeted the group of 30 to 40 people in Charleston, West Virginia.

Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives.

The suspect had driven by the area earlier on Wednesday evening when he was warned to slow down because children were playing.

He returned armed with an AR-15-type rifle and opened fire from his vehicle on the birthday-graduation party outside the apartment complex in the city.

Mr Hazelett told a news conference that the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background. She has not been identified.

"She's just a member of the community who was carrying her weapon lawfully," he said. "And instead of running from the threat she engaged with the threat and saved several lives."

The woman remained at the scene after the shooting, and is co-operating with investigators.

Charges will not be filed against her, police say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Phew! I, for one, am very glad this whole issue has now been solved.


Martin Van Buren Stan

So she did more than the 19 cops outside Robb. Good for her I guess.

JamesTC

How long until a good guy accidentally shoots somebody that they think are a mass shooter?

Zetetic

9 tweets on policy and training for Uvalde "law enforcement" responding to this sort of thing:
https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530357140191186944

ersatz99

Quote from: JamesTC on May 28, 2022, 09:53:00 AMHow long until a good guy accidentally shoots somebody that they think are a mass shooter?
Reminds me of that mass shooting at the Las Vegas concert. The singer said he rushed backstage to get his gun which he always took on tour only to realise he didn't want the police turning up amid the chaos and seeing him holding a gun.The self defence argument in this case would have made matters worse.

pigamus

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 28, 2022, 09:51:30 AMSo she did more than the 19 cops outside Robb. Good for her I guess.

I bet this story won't be weaponised by bastards!

Butchers Blind

If only those ten year olds had guns.

touchingcloth

Quote from: Alberon on May 28, 2022, 08:19:46 AMWe can relax everyone. The Good Guy With A Gun idea actually works. Though in this case it was a woman.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Phew! I, for one, am very glad this whole issue has now been solved.

Ban not being a woman who isn't at a party and doesn't have a gun.

Martin Van Buren Stan

Quote from: JamesTC on May 28, 2022, 09:53:00 AMHow long until a good guy accidentally shoots somebody that they think are a mass shooter?

Pretty sure this happened but I can't remember the exact details. A guy shot a shooter then the cops turned up and shot him a few years back.


JamesTC

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 28, 2022, 11:33:57 AMPretty sure this happened but I can't remember the exact details. A guy shot a shooter then the cops turned up and shot him a few years back.



Ban misunderstandings.

touchingcloth

Could any of these big bangs have happened if not for the Big Bang? Ban the emergence of space, time, and matter.

JamesTC

Quote from: touchingcloth on May 28, 2022, 11:38:58 AMCould any of these big bangs have happened if not for the Big Bang? Ban the emergence of space, time, and matter.

They've been trying to ban that from the education system for years.


Martin Van Buren Stan


Interesting analysis here
He talks about how cops have it drilled into them that everyone is armed and out to get them. Hence why they sometimes shoot unarmed people, but run and hide from armed people.

I'm not anti cop generally but their response here was utterly sickening and these guys found out in the worst possible way that they're in the wrong job.  I wonder if it was a form of bystander effect or if they genuinely thought it was a hostage situation. It seems almost miraculous that he "only" managed to kill 21 people in an hour too.

Blumf

Quote from: touchingcloth on May 28, 2022, 11:38:58 AMCould any of these big bangs have happened if not for the Big Bang? Ban the emergence of space, time, and matter.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."

Paul Calf

REMEMBER WHEN THERE WAS NOTHING?

touchingcloth

Quote from: Blumf on May 28, 2022, 12:28:14 PM"In the beginning the Universe was created. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."

Jeremiah?