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Started by bgmnts, September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PMAre there actually any people out there who just outright refuse the notion of hard work, regardless? Have you met anyone like that?
Quote from: holyzombiejesus on September 07, 2021, 02:41:01 PMI hate hard work. I'd like nothing more than being able to sit on my fat arse doing fuck all, all day every day. Doing fuck all > job you like > death > job you hate
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PMEven the laziest fat cunts like me would be happy doing the graft if we actually had agency over our work, good conditions and shared in the fruits of labour.
Quote from: metaltax on September 07, 2021, 03:38:28 PMIf you have all of that it's not hard work, it's just work.
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 03:39:00 PMWell, you know what I mean by hard work. Intense work or demanding work.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 07, 2021, 03:51:24 PMDefine "work" then we can talk about what hard, intense and demanding mean.My hunch is that a cost-benefits analysis is what might cause young British workers to have an aversion to some kinds of work. If a potential benefit of work is getting, say, a foot on the housing ladder and a pension which will keep you in comfort in your old age, how much progress towards that goal will spending a summer picking soft fruits in a Marches farm get you, and is the experience of the job worth that progress? If a potential benefit of work is around ideas of agency, satisfaction in a job well done, providing wider benefits to society, how far towards that does the same summer job get you, and is it worth it?Some forrins may have different views on the costs and/or benefits than some young British workers.
Quote from: Buelligan on September 07, 2021, 03:36:48 PMNot sure I agree. Why do people have hobbies like restoring shite or allotmenting or clock making or you know, loads of stuff like that? If they all wanted to sit on their fat arses, why are they poncing about with metal detectors or putting up bat boxes? Asking for a friend.
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 04:01:14 PMYou are definitely thinking about it in a more pragmatic and real world way than me I'm just being a bit vague and utopian. Like if you told a young person, or anyone really, that they could graft all week but they'd own the means of production and benefit from the fruit of their labour, rather than just lining rich cunts' pockets, would they ever say nah I just wanna lie down all day?
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 07, 2021, 04:05:43 PMWhat if they collectively owned machinery that could do the work for them? Does that sound more utopian?
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 04:06:33 PMWell of course but there would always be jobs.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 07, 2021, 04:20:14 PMI'm not sure what this utopia is where the options are 1) graft all week, receive co-ownership of the means of production AND labour fruits in return, or 2) lie down all day.Personally I'm in favour of something like UBI where option 1 is "do some form of paid work if you want to", and 2 is "lie down all day if you want to, or any other unpaid option e.g. stargazing, volunteering, wanking".Whether or not you own the means of production, directly enjoy the fruits of your own labour, or line the pockets of a rich cunt become academic in that sort of world, because employment isn't the necessity that it is in the current world.
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 04:27:45 PMWell of course! We would all have a social safety net and UBI etc but there are surely very few people out there who would only want to veg out on the sofa for 40 years? Don't we all sort of want to create or produce something?
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 07, 2021, 04:36:13 PMWhat are people creating when doing hard labour though? You can tell yourself it's useful, if you're ploughing the field or something (which is more than can be said for paperwork creators in offices in many cases) but I find it doubtful people would do it to give themselves purpose. I think the idea with UBI is it would liberate them from having to do labour and fill up their time with side-hustles they actually enjoy.
Quote from: bgmnts on September 07, 2021, 04:38:02 PMBut then if that's the case then that means only the monetary incentive would get people working most jobs, most of the actual needed jobs. I'd like to think most of us would pitch in regardless.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 07, 2021, 04:56:12 PMI honestly don't know, and the point of UBI is that it shouldn't matter. I think that some people probably would only want to veg out, but to go back to the OP I don't see that as being a uniquely British attitude towards the idea of creation and production. I would say that I do see the attitude from the OP among British workers, but I think it's down to things like the housing situation in the UK, austerity in the UK, and plentiful[nb]Or some value of plentifulness[/nb] supply of cheaper labour from outside the UK.
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 07, 2021, 03:58:45 PMThe 'hard, labour intensive' jobs they are referring to often have awful pay and conditions and the only reason the associated businesses operate is because of being able to recruit people for whom the pay is still superior than a better job in their home country.
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 07, 2021, 04:28:32 PMHow we get from a consumerism propped up by cheap labour to there is another thing, but a political voice is a start.
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