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Started by bgmnts, September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on September 08, 2021, 03:25:28 PMReturning to the sub-topic of the current employment landscape, this sort of thing happens too often (from someone I follow on Twitter but don't know personally):This person is a good creative writer with an MA in creative writing and shouldn't have to look for "permanent admin roles" full stop let alone face this sort of shit.Similarly (or oppositely?), my partner has to interview for her own job today. She doesn't expect to get it because she thinks it's all part of a ploy to move her to a far shittier branch office so that someone else can be moved into hers as a way to eliminate an historic job-share complication (which she objected to at the time).Basically, we all too often have to beg for work that is beneath us (but we can't say it is because that's taboo for some reason) and which we only "want" because we have bills to pay. And then be treated like shit by managers. And all the while have act professionally and to pretend to love our work and are grateful for it.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 11:23:47 AMThere is the UBI that pays you a base wage regardless of your whether you are working or not; this is very expensive and advantageous to richer people (it's like the winter allowance for people that don't need it); for them it becomes stored as excess capital and tends to not go back into the economy.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 01:51:45 PMExactly; the idea that all work is worthless is problematic; work is supporting the elderly, disabled and infirm, its educating children, performing surgery to restore someones eye sight, allowing people to travel and see loved ones, making sure the water in your taps keeps flowing and is safe to drink.It isn't that work is bad it is that how the rewards and better working conditions work in the world is badly skewed toward the pursuit of financial gain and not the productive useful societally improving things.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 08, 2021, 03:51:38 PMMy partner is a good creative writer, but we don't have any sort of a safety net for her to write speculatively so she does her own projects when she can and random bits of copywriting, proofreading and "admin roles" to earn money to pay for fripperies like staying alive. It's a recurring story in the creative industries, because talent alone isn't enough to find yourself gainful employment, and almost everyone working in those industries will have some kind of financial support to allow them to pursue a career, especially in the early days.
Quote from: Mobbd on September 08, 2021, 03:56:10 PMYup, that about sums it up. UBI claims to take that problem away. Small business and creative industry become viable.
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 08, 2021, 03:38:59 PMI'm seeing two slightly-related things recurring in this thread:Conflation between inherent benefits of work and inherent benefits of stability."I need some form of [occupation, stability, routine, social contact etc etc] and so do other people too, so that's why we should keep work"I think point 2 could greatly be satisfied on ones own terms by providing point 1 and the removal of the stigma of being jobless (and the conditioning that only jobs can provide point 2). I think if you remove the need for people to work, people will be more selective, so businesses that want to employ people and commune-like self-organising groups that want to do stuff will begin to appear somewhat similar.
Quote from: monkfromhavana on September 08, 2021, 02:47:26 PMI did fill my time with "hobbies of the unskilled kind", which I continue now that I am a *productive member of society*, but I still think that my hobbies are as useless as when I did them as when I was unemployed. Would your average wage slave, if freed from the drudgery, suddenly decide to create art, or read classic literature, or develop themselves? Some would, but I suspect that a lot of people would just go to the pub.
Quote from: Lemming on September 08, 2021, 04:12:19 PMAgreed, I've had the "oohhh god no my life and youth are just slipping away while I'm sat doing fuck all" thoughts while unemployed too, but having a job often induced similar feelings. Social contact and some form of structured activity are definitely the big things that are needed to stay in a good mood and good mindset. Annoyingly, society is currently structured in a way where work is the easiest way to accomplish both of these, but you can still achieve them yourself.
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 07, 2021, 03:58:45 PMThe 'hard, labour intensive' jobs they are referring to often have awful pay and conditions and the only reason the associated businesses operate is because of being able to recruit people for whom the pay is still superior than a better job in their home country.
Quote from: Alberon on September 08, 2021, 07:29:19 PMI don't feel I'd miss the structure of work, the last eighteen months of Furlough, Lockdowns and working from home has shown that.Admittedly, I'd probably be nine to fiveing Final Fantasy 14, but it wouldn't be negatively affecting my emotional state.
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 08, 2021, 07:37:23 PMWhich 9 and 5? When I get time off work I typically end up nocturnal, not sure why that's inherently bad though.
Quote from: Alberon on September 08, 2021, 07:42:18 PMEven through three months of lockdown I couldn't help but wake up at 6.30am no matter how late I went to bed. It's bloody annoying, especially when I know I can sleep in till mid morning and I need to catch up on it, but I'm still awake long before seven.
Quote from: Goldentony on September 08, 2021, 07:52:11 PMread through all this and come to the conclusion work is a fucking complete waste of time invented by cunts thats now too far into the game to tell people who work at wankzones that they've wasted their and everyones elses time
Quote from: Capt.Midnight on September 08, 2021, 05:59:40 PMPrecisely. I have zero sympathy for the employers who created working conditions so vile that they can't recruit native UK replacement staff.
Quote from: Mobbd on September 08, 2021, 03:52:44 PMThat's not right. Sorry. One of the main appeals of UBI is that everyone gets it, even the rich. But the rich lose it again through progressive taxation.
QuoteThe advantages of everyone, including the rich, getting it are that (a) we rid the world of the expensive, onerous and undignified systems currently in place for administering and policing a complex welfare state, and (b) it removes the stigma of receiving state "handouts".
QuoteFolks, I know quite a lot about UBI. Not everything (it's an emerging field) but quite a lot. I am willing to answer questions if people are really interested. I can be a little slow to respond though, so bear with me if you do.
QuoteI agree with you there, 100%. We need to end the ridiculous stigma that those jobs are menial. And we need to pay those people well.
QuoteYes but you need people to do them; how do you construct a society that on one hand gives out money for people to live comfortable lives, with no stigma of not working and pay people enough to look after people that need that support?
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMYes but you need people to do them; how do you construct a society that on one hand gives out money for people to live comfortable lives, with no stigma of not working and pay people enough to look after people that need that support?
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMThis is basically the same as means testing UBI prior to handing it out;
Quoteand by recouping UBI after by taxation you are essentially making a set of bullshit job.......someone that is having to take back money that didn't need to be given in the first place.
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 08, 2021, 09:30:30 PMRound up the rich people and take all their stuff.
Quote from: Lemming on September 08, 2021, 09:32:18 PMOn a purely hypothetical level, UBI might provide a "basic"[nb]tough to define[/nb] standard of living, which wards off destitution and - when combined with robust state services like housing and healthcare - provides a person with whatever we consider essential for a decent quality of life in the 21st century. But it wouldn't be enough to provide people with luxuries and the types of consumer goods that people already strive towards today - cars, tech gizmos, whatever.But with a guaranteed minimum standard of living, people would theoretically be able to approach jobs more on their own terms. I'm not sure what that would look like for most people - perhaps part-time work would become the norm, or working at a job for a year or two before leaving to enjoy your earnings. It might lead to upward pressure on wages, too, as we briefly saw glimpses of in America recently where McDonald's suddenly boosted wages in order to lure people in.Otherwise, I assume many people will work high-stress, unpleasant jobs for the same reasons they work them now - the desire to hang onto what they've got, the desire to attain more, the desire to save enough to move to a new place, the desire to leave their children in a better position, genuinely enjoying the job, etc. I don't mind there being some stigma against (long-term/permanent) unemployment, as long as unemployment isn't accompanied by the threat of destitution.
Quote from: Zetetic on September 08, 2021, 09:45:14 PMIt really isn't, not least in terms of establishing a principle of universal services and a state that works for everyone - rather than hard-working families subsidising dolescum, the latter of which must be subjected to humiliating and distressing processes to prove their scummery (as Mobbd outlines).This makes no sense. Having functioning income and wealth taxes requires jobs[nb]I don't think these are bullshit, myself[/nb], yes - the rate at which you set them won't make much difference to how many jobs are needed.The idea that people working against tax avoidance have more bullshit-y jobs than means-testers - a job which in practice exists only to make difficult lives more difficult - is... difficult to comfortably hold in my head.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:07:56 PMmeans testing does not exist to make people with difficult lives more difficult; it is there to stop people that don't need these funds exploiting the system and directing resources away from those that need it.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:07:56 PMSorry none of this makes sense. UBI is not the only way of removing the problems you cite and means testing does not exist to make people with difficult lives more difficult; it is there to stop people that don't need these funds exploiting the system and directing resources away from those that need it.
Quote from: Zetetic on September 08, 2021, 10:28:43 PMIs this a "bit"?
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 08, 2021, 10:29:43 PMMeans testing isn't cost-free to administer
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