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August 09, 2022, 09:04:33 PM

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Buffy/Angel

Started by Magnum Valentino, April 08, 2022, 12:55:26 PM

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mjwilson

I had been assuming that the reboot is dead, but it seems like it might be ticking along quietly in the background. (Or it's been cancelled but they haven't told anyone.)

MojoJojo

Quote from: Mister Six on April 09, 2022, 03:09:24 PMWhich one has the shit Spike rape subplot? Is that 6? Fucking season 6, man.

Yeah, season 6 sucked - Once More With feeling isn't worth the misery. Why on earth they thought making their spunky superhero depressed and wanting to be dead a good idea I don't know. The rest of the gang have all their happiness taken away too. It's like they mistook misery for drama.

That's without mentioning the unintentional implications of the magic/drug stuff, where they seem to have forgotten Willows magic was very tied to her discovering her sexuality.

While season 4 wobbles a lot, I think there is enough good to justify continuing past the blowing up the school ending. Season 6 though... I've not watched season 7.

JamesTC


Spiteface

Season 6 is the worst season of Buffy by far, and Once More With Feeling is the most overrated episode of the entire series, made even worse by the fact that there's still a big plot point crowbarred in (the gang finding out that they essentially tore Buffy out of heaven when they resurrected her). So you kinda NEED some of it for the overall plot arc of the season.

The episode where it seems like she was insane and the entire events of the show existed purely in Buffy's head was awesome though, and would have been a ballsy as fuck finale.  Season 7 is fine and is a perfectly cromulent ending to the show.

olliebean

Quote from: Spiteface on April 10, 2022, 10:57:59 AMThe episode where it seems like she was insane and the entire events of the show existed purely in Buffy's head was awesome though, and would have been a ballsy as fuck finale.  Season 7 is fine and is a perfectly cromulent ending to the show.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire events of the show did exist purely in Buffy's head. The final scene of that episode takes place outside of Buffy's POV, showing her in that world in which the events of the show are entirely in her head. There is no in-universe justification for that scene unless it depicts the true in-universe reality. QED.

Mister Six

Quote from: MojoJojo on April 10, 2022, 10:43:57 AMYeah, season 6 sucked - Once More With feeling isn't worth the misery. Why on earth they thought making their spunky superhero depressed and wanting to be dead a good idea I don't know. The rest of the gang have all their happiness taken away too. It's like they mistook misery for drama.

That's new showrunner Marti Noxon at work. I never understood why Whedon didn't pick Jane Espenson - who was clearly the staff writer with the best grasp of the show's tone, and wrote tons of the show's highlights - to head up the series. Although just now I had a brainwave, and a quick google suggests that, yes, Noxon is more conventionally attractive than Espenson. Not saying she shagged her way into the position, but it wouldn't surprise me if Whedon was more interested in promoting the trim blonde with the nice cheekbones over the bespectacled lass with the strong jawline.

JamesTC

I think it is demeaning to posit that looks got Marti Noxon the role. She had written or co-written 19 episodes by the end of Season 5. Jane Espenson has written or co-written 13 episodes by the same point. Noxon had also has more experience of writing more significant arc episodes. Both were already producers on the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if Joss Whedon did feel more threatened by Jane Espenson. She was the second most popular writer on the show after himself. Though Noxon was no slouch to great episodes either.


While looking at Jane Espenson on Wikipedia, I never realised she had written an episode of Deep Space Nine! A really good one too. Shame she never did more.

Mister Six

Yeah, it's probably a cunty thing to say, but Whedon is actually a cunt, and I meant it more as a commentary on him than them. IIRC, Noxon had form for morose scripts, too - the original version of Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered had to be extensively rewritten to make it into a light-hearted comedy episode.

But yeah, maybe it was more about Espenson being popular and Whedon not wanting to be overshadowed on his flagship show. Or maybe Espenson didn't want the job, or Noxon's pitch sounded better than it was (or Espenson's worse). But Whedon is a cunt, so...

Magnum Valentino

Wasn't one of those ladies married to another one of the writers or am I incorrectly half remembering a commentary?

timbis

Angel is my favourite show of all time. I love Buffy too but I rewatch Angel more. The difference in David Boreanaz is remarkable over the span of the shows.



Magnum Valentino

Just finished series one of Angel (ended strong, I've really grown to appreciate Alexis Denisof as Wesley and Gunn turning up added something new to the mix).

It's doing my head now trying to remember which episode has a baddie who looks like a baddie (possibly a robe, mask, overly sinister) but actually turns out to be a goodie who helps maybe either Angel or Giles to Judas the actual baddie. I thought it was the cunt who gives Cordelia the permanent visions but naw, face made of maggots, actual baddie. Maybe he furnishes them with a text or a dagger or something.

Anyone remember this off my vague description? This lad pulls sort of the Buffy/Angel equivalent of a face turn, to use wrestling vernacular.

Mister Six

Quote from: timbis on April 17, 2022, 09:11:21 PMAngel is my favourite show of all time. I love Buffy too but I rewatch Angel more. The difference in David Boreanaz is remarkable over the span of the shows.

Things improve in Angel when the writers realise that he's a much better comic actor than a dramatic one, and lean into that.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

We watched both series from start to finish over the course of last year. As a contrarian git, I thought it was all rather overrated when it was originally on. It's still not without its problems, but I enjoyed it a lot more this time and was even a wee bit sad when it was all over.

One thing that really stood out this time was how often people's close-ups are out of focus. I've seen 90s Britpop compilations with less blur.

Deanjam

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on April 29, 2022, 07:54:44 PMJust finished series one of Angel (ended strong, I've really grown to appreciate Alexis Denisof as Wesley and Gunn turning up added something new to the mix).

It's doing my head now trying to remember which episode has a baddie who looks like a baddie (possibly a robe, mask, overly sinister) but actually turns out to be a goodie who helps maybe either Angel or Giles to Judas the actual baddie. I thought it was the cunt who gives Cordelia the permanent visions but naw, face made of maggots, actual baddie. Maybe he furnishes them with a text or a dagger or something.

Anyone remember this off my vague description? This lad pulls sort of the Buffy/Angel equivalent of a face turn, to use wrestling vernacular.

In Angel or Buffy? There's this guy in Buffy episode enemies, who pretends to steal Angel's soul to trick Faith, as he owes Giles a favour for introducing him to his wife.


beanheadmcginty

It always delighted me that Buffy had not one, but two people in the end credits with "wank" in their name.

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: Deanjam on April 29, 2022, 11:07:46 PMIn Angel or Buffy? There's this guy in Buffy episode enemies, who pretends to steal Angel's soul to trick Faith, as he owes Giles a favour for introducing him to his wife.



Thank you! My brother got it in like two seconds too.

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on April 30, 2022, 12:07:10 AMIt always delighted me that Buffy had not one, but two people in the end credits with "wank" in their name.

Thomas Wanker's one, who's the other?

olliebean

Brian Wankum, post-production coordinator/supervisor and later associate producer. (Had to look it up on IMDb, my Buffy knowledge is not that encyclopaedic!)

Magnum Valentino

Jumped back into season 2 of Angel after a wee break. Absolutely brilliant run in the first 10 episodes or so. The overall arc with Angel trying to source salvation for Darla, the one-episode plots with Wesley pretending to be Angel or Angel pretending to be a flashy Las Vegas vampire and the hotel flashback episode, the massive leap in quality for guest spots (Mark Rolston, Earl Brown, Tony Todd), it's just been a blast. I've mowed through a rake of episodes in two or three days.

The intensity of the viewing has made something clearer than ever. Cordelia doesn't work. Her Buffy-style patter is extremely grating and doesn't fit into the much cooler tone of the show overall. She's also not had a single storyline so far in season 2 (the episode about her and Gunn is much more about establishing Gunn than Cordelia) and has had two DREADFUL haircuts. It really feels like they don't know what to do with her, which isn't helped by the arrival of Lorne, a much more appealingly warm character who wears the foil of levity to Angel more comfortably and also serves the 'go in this direction' function that previously only Cordelia's visions provided. Also, the speech she gives at the end of that episode where she follows Gunn around all night is just laughably performed. Seems like her heart's not in it, and it makes sense if the show doesn't have anything for her.

It's also just struck me how funny Alexis Denisof is. His reaction having to drink a glass of blood in Guise Will Be Guise is fabulous.

What else? I really like the stoolie Merl and it's nice to see Lindsey get his floppy mop chopped.

Pink Gregory

Fondest memories - getting together with Ms. Gregory, going over on a wednesday night and watching alternate Buffy and Angel - even though it would have been Buffy season 4.

Magnum Valentino

I have similarly fond memories of those double bills, particularly for Buffy season 5 and Angel season 2 as by that stage one or both of the shows was exclusive to Sky so could only catch them at a friend's house. Those episodes that I saw in that context still feel a wee bit better any time I rewatch them.