Your opinion on Robbie

[ccbaxter]

I made this pact when I was 19 that I was going to outline him.

Like this?

(picture)

Or indeed...

[JJJJH]

I agree with Whirlybird here. Why choose to listen to this or any other pop music that is essentially compromised in quality to be tailored for mainstream radio?

I don't know, perhaps because some people enjoy the sensations listening to Robbie Williams produces inside them? I personally know people that love Fosters and Carling, not just for the effect, but also for the taste. I hate Fosters and Stella, but love Double Drop and Asahi. It's all ingredients engineered to appeal to someone out there, same as with RW's releases. Though there are a couple of songs he's released I think are good, I hate him for similar reasons to those that other people have mentioned - smugness and crappy songwriting ability mostly. But then again, I'd be bored shitless if all he and everyone else did was write ludicrously abstract melodies and time signatures. You can say he's written a shit song, but you can't teach him or me how to write or listen to a good one.

I appreciate we don't all have time the scour the internet for unheard of bands that are way too cool, but we all have mp3 players and/or computers these days, so there's no excuse really.

No excuse for what? For God's sake, listening to Robbie Williams shouldn't be a guilty pleasure if you like him.

I don't really mind people saying 'I like pop music' as long as it doesn't mean, 'I like exactly whats fed to me on the radio'.

Well what if people instead say 'I like Robbie Williams but not Girls Aloud'? Or even 'I like Robbie Williams and Bumblefoot'?

[Catalogue Trousers]

He's a WANKER.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_5320000/newsid_5326200/5326200.stm

Nice one, Robbie. You tit.

[Neville Chamberlain]

Oooh, I've just done the quiz there!

You got 4 right!  
Congratulations! You are obviously a big fan of the cheeky chappy of pop.

Yeah, obviously. Twats.

[Ciarán2]

He's a WANKER.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_5320000/newsid_5326200/5326200.stm

Nice one, Robbie. You tit.

Sorry, how does a decision made by headteachers make Robbie a tit? I think the kids' "education" is probably doing them more damage than it is good in the long run actually but that's another thread. A day off school? Good, they can go out and play.

This thread is beginning to remind me of a clip I saw on YouTube of Gavin Friday on a chatshow. He was saying (paraphrasing) "look at Island Records, it's pathetic! It used to have Tom Waits and now its biggest act is Sugababes. I mean...I ask you!" For fuck's sake. The idea that Sugababes could not possibly have any worth, that they're uselessness doesn't need to be explained, is irritating enough. But hearing it from Gavin fucking Friday! I mean fair play, he's a marginal artist (as is Tom Waits who I really like), but I still think Gavin Friday's a complete pile of shit. Have you seen the clips of his recent stage show? Jesus wept... But no, what the world needs is more of him and less pop. It does in my arse. I think the balance is just right.

Look at this: Gavin Friday and Guggi on a Belgian chat show. Possibly pissed, in fairness.

And this: The Sugababes are obviously shit, but of course this is entirely acceptable.

[Catalogue Trousers]

In all fairness, Ciaran, if the headmasters made that decision then it's obviously not Robbie's direct fault. But the whole implication that Robbie (or anyone) playing a concert is more important than even a day's education is a bit riling.

[Ciarán2]

In all fairness, Ciaran, if the headmasters made that decision then it's obviously not Robbie's direct fault. But the whole implication that Robbie (or anyone) playing a concert is more important than even a day's education is a bit riling.

Well, I don't think it's saying that really. They don't close the school when Dumpy's Rusty Nuts pass through town. And I don't think it's a value judgement either, like the headmaster's saying "Oh well, Robbie's wonderful. As a mark of respect we'll close the school". Of course it's a practical issue, a safety issue. As such I don't think it reflects on Robbie Williams or his music either way. You could think of a modern day Robbie Williams concert as a local event. Last year where I lived they had to divert traffic and so on for a Meat Loaf concert at Ardgillan Castle. And all the concert-goers descended on the town causing a certain amount of chaos. But before Robbie and Meat Loaf - 10 years ago - it'd happen for Bon Jovi and Bryan Adams, before that for U2 and Bruce Springsteen. These stadium rock gigs are like a modern day version of the Lord Mayor's Show or similar events. When I was a kid, they closed the school because Ireland were playing an important qualifier for Italia '90. A school being closed for football? Outrageous! But they were dead right to do so. And it was an exception, as is the closure of a school because Robbie Williams is in town.

I sympathise with this thread, though, because if it were "Your Thoughts On Bono", I'd animatedly contribute bile to it. But I'm a bit silly for getting wrapped up in Bono-hysteria, and there is something hugely cultural about "hating Bono", if you see what I mean. It's kind of senseless, the levels it reaches. This thread is a similar kind of thing, really, and it's facetious of me really, to talk of Robbie Williams in any positive way here.  But honestly, I find it interesting that I blow hot and cold over Robbie Williams. There've been times I've hated him, and times when I've thought "blimey, that's a good record", or "wow, I'm enjoying reading what he has to say in this interview". Right now, I'm looking forward with interest to his new LP. If it's crap, I'll say so. I though his last LP was ok. But I didn't buy it, I was given it, I wasn't prepared to splash out on a Robbie Williams album, so as you can see, I'm hardly his biggest fan either. But I was a bit riled earlier in the thread by the suggestion that someone who likes Robbie Williams cannot possibly like music really. Why not just admit that that's part of the Robbie Williams hate fan club cult, rather than pop criticism of some kind? I found it such a ridiculous statement that I couldn't let it slide past. I think it speaks volumes about rock snobbery. I can accept someone might really dislike his records, even hate his records - of course I can. But to then go a step further and say "what's more, you don't REALLY like him, you're either lying or you haven't heard enough records"? My eye!

[Peking O]

They don't close the school when Dumpy's Rusty Nuts pass through town.

Ah, good old Dumpy and his Rusty Nuts. A quick google search reveals the boys are still going strong. They've even got a My Space page!

[Whirlybird]

If someone thinks Robbie Williams is anything other than a bland and useless attempt at pop music - and they don't fit into the audience his music is targeted at - then they haven't heard enough music (no lists required here).   Furthermore, they should conciously work on developing their tastes.  Same goes for fans of Balls Of Steel and The Charlotte Church Show.  It's really dull to bring everything down to 'oh it's all a matter of taste...'*, there's good music and bad music, and Williams is an example of the latter.  I'd rather not waste my time listening to bad music, and yes, I do get riled when other people try and justify such.

* And furthermore, it's almost certainly the precise reason this music forum is so damn disappointing.

EDIT:  And why does Gavin Friday merit a "for fucks sake" for preferring Tom Waits to the (bloody) Sugababes?

[imitationleather]

What's good music then, Mr. Taste?

[Cack Hen]

Sorry but that's nothing more than snobbery. Just because you have it in your head that Williams/whatever other pop is shit, it doesn't make it so. That's an incredibly obvious thing to say, but you don't seem to be grasping that.

Assuming the majority of Robbie Williams fans haven't explored music to any great degree, why does that alter the artistic validity of Robbie Williams? How do you know that Angels doesn't move someone just as much as your favourite song moves you?

[Garfield And Friends]

What's good music then

Sparks!

[Whirlybird]

What's good music then, Mr. Taste?

I think I'd probably rather not post one of those discussion-free 'look at me and my great taste' lists, they stink up music forums no end.  But are you disagreeing with the notion that there's good and bad music?  I can't stand this idea that you're not allowed to point at something and proclaim it to be shit.  

And regards the inverse snobbery thing, it seems to me it's really more acceptable now to sneer at people for having 'purposely obscure tastes.'  And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but the reverse should also be true.  MORE snobbery, not less.

[Ciarán2]

Re: whirlybird's last post.

He doesn't just say that, he finds Sugababes so obviously, self-evidently rubbish that he merely needs to mention their name in the same breath as that of Tom Waits' to ram his point home. As if Sugababes and Tom Waits are operating in the same area of popular music, as if you could say "well the reason "Tom Traubert's Blues" doesn't really work is because he doesn't sing in a clear voice and get Xenomania in to remix it", or "Freak Like Me" would have been all the better for having been sung by a drunken lounge-crooner with razor blades down his throat at 4am". I like both Sugababes and Tom Waits because I'm capable of liking two types of thing, what an incredible thought! Sometimes I go to the Odeon to watch a Hollywood summer blockbuster, and sometimes I go to the IFI to wacth an arty Czech film. And I quite enjoy myself at both. I don't think one is better than the other, they're different experiences.

And then, in his live show Gavin Friday performs a version of "Daddy Cool" by Boney M. This is something that gets on my wick. The opinion he apparently expresses in the interview clip is that Sugababes (a pop group, and if you're interested in pop, you may find that they're a bloody good one. I mean he could have picked on Fast Food Rockers) are so irredeemably shite that they merit nothing more than a snigger and a sneer from him. They're dreadfulness doesn't need to be explained. It's a common language shared by everyone present at the interview. Virgin Prunes, Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle* = proper music. Sugababes = "sold out" and crap. And then he turns around and camps it up to Boney M, an act which is the height of pop's plasticity. They were set up by Frank Farian, who later went on the establish Milli Vanilli (while Gavin was being all "arty" and "gothic" and crap with The Virgin Prunes). But no, for the purposes of his live set, pop may be exhumed. He performs a faithful full-on 70s disco version of the song complete with "kitsch" lighting, camp dance routines and smouldering posture. Phrasing the word Daddy in such a way that it sounds a bit, y'now, sleazy, like "he's bringing out the song's dark side, maaaaaan". I can't stand that ironic nonsense. Sorry, I'm ranting now...

Or maybe I am deluding myself and need to "consciously work on developing my musical taste". How can I go about that? Any pointers?

*I mean, Throbbing fucking Gristle for fuck's sake. I have time for them, but they're the absolute outside fringe of pop music. Pop music hardly comes more distorted and fucked up than Throbbing Gristle and this cunt is suggesting that the likes of Sugababes are ruining the fun because 'ver Gristle don't have a record deal!

[Whirlybird]

Sorry but that's nothing more than snobbery. Just because you have it in your head that Williams/whatever other pop is shit, it doesn't make it so. That's an incredibly obvious thing to say, but you don't seem to be grasping that.

No, I get that, of course I get that.  But it's so dull.  Yes, I'm advocating snobbery, but also passion.  It's more interesting in terms of discussion, and in terms of fandom itself.

Assuming the majority of Robbie Williams fans haven't explored music to any great degree, why does that alter the artistic validity of Robbie Williams? How do you know that Angels doesn't move someone just as much as your favourite song moves you?

Someone may prefer a 99p McDonalds burger to, I dunno, a finely cooked steak by a world-reknowned chef.  Who's to say they wouldn't enjoy the steak more if they worked on developing their palette?

[Ciarán2]

Also, I'm not at all saying that nobody has a sense of good and bad music, but you're suggesting that what you hold to be good/bad must hold for all.

[Cack Hen]

Ok, but why does it matter that they may or may not be living in ignorance? You could say that too many people are like this, and that's what's wrong with music today - but that's a seperate issue. My point is, why should their opinion be less valid simply because of their supposed ignorance? They're still enjoying the song just as much as you enjoy your favourite song, so they have every right to claim Robbie Williams is a fantastic artist who makes beautiful music.

For the record, I hate him. But that's not really relevant.

[Ciarán2]

Someone may prefer a 99p McDonalds burger to, I dunno, a finely cooked steak by a world-reknowned chef.  Who's to say they wouldn't enjoy the steak more if they worked on developing their palette?

You are ELW10 and I claim my Big Mac voucher.... ;-)

[Whirlybird]

Sometimes I go to the Odeon to watch a Hollywood summer blockbuster, and sometimes I go to the IFI to wacth an arty Czech film. And I quite enjoy myself at both. I don't think one is better than the other, they're different experiences.

I think, again, you're presuming my stance to be an anti-pop one (Cack Hen seems to be doing the same).  It most certainly isn't, I love pop music.  But I love great pop music.  Presumably the Hollywood summer blockbusters you watch are good examples of that genre.  That's all I'm saying...that Robbie Williams isn't a good example of the genre of pop music, and shouldn't be held up as such.  Life's too short for bad music.

Or maybe I am deluding myself and need to "consciously work on developing my musical taste". How can I go about that? Any pointers?

Listen to styles of music that you're not that keen on, that challenge and puzzle you.  Or go and root through the collection of 78's and cylinder recordings on sites like archive.org.  Listen to some world music.  Go and listen to some hot jazz sides.  Spend your time more fruitfully than wasting it on Mr Williams.

[Whirlybird]

Someone may prefer a 99p McDonalds burger to, I dunno, a finely cooked steak by a world-reknowned chef.  Who's to say they wouldn't enjoy the steak more if they worked on developing their palette?

You are ELW10 and I claim my Big Mac voucher.... ;-)

Well it's funny, because I read something he said in Comedy Chat a few weeks ago, something about people posting page after page about Time Trumpet or the like, but ignoring the reiusse of some Monty Python records.  And I tutted and rolled my eyes...and then I quickly realised that, yes, i do the exact same thing with this forum!  Six pages on 'the fat dancer from Take That' and barely a mention of the likes of Silver Apples or Pere Ubu, it's a disgrace :-)

So yes, we're in agreement it would seem.  

I mean, there's not a man woman or child on this board who isn't snobby about something!  Whether it be Big Brother, McDonalds, Robbie Williams etc, we all have things we turn our noses up against, and what's wrong with that?

[Whirlybird]

Ok, but why does it matter that they may or may not be living in ignorance? You could say that too many people are like this, and that's what's wrong with music today - but that's a seperate issue.

It's not though, is it?  I'd rather The Kids had something genuinely fucking brilliant to get excited about.  

My point is, why should their opinion be less valid simply because of their supposed ignorance?

If they are ignorant, then does that not automatically make their opinion "less valid"?  (Or at least less informed, which makes me wonder about the value of such an opinion).  It's not the kids I'm on about anyway, I already said that if you're in that target audience, then fine.  It's the people who should know better that concern me.  If someone in Comedy Chat said 'yeah, but Balls Of Steel is quite funny at times, and it's only a telly show' then they'd get torn strips off them, so why isn't there that amount of passion in this part of the board?  Passion almost seems to be seen as a bad thing here...ooh, be careful not to tread on the toes of anyones taste.  I don't see how that can make for good and healthy discussion.  

For the record, I hate him. But that's not really relevant.

Why do you hate him?

If you know how good music can be, and the passion it can arouse in you, then why settle for less?  Robbie Williams isn't a good example of pop music, that's all I'm saying.

[Cack Hen]

Alright, hate is a bit strong. But I find his music exceedingly dull and I usually hate dull music more than I hate outright bad music. If you can distinguish the difference.

And yes, I'd agree that he's not a good example of great pop music but maybe I just don't see something that somebody else sees. Some people find The Pipettes to be completely pointless and boring, yet I really like them. I just don't think these things are as black and white as you make out.

Also, there's passion, and then there's derivative snobbery. I have absolutely no problem with you saying why you believe The Pipettes (for example) are a bad band, but there's no point attacking the people who enjoy them. That's not a healthy debate, and it's one that's going to loop. It's not so much that I would find that offensive, but rather I would consider it an invalid argument against the music itself. I wouldn't say I've got a particularly vast musical knowledge (relatively speaking), but I can obviously tell a world of difference between The Pipettes (for example) and The Ecstacy of Saint Theresa (for example). Yet, I like both them equally and for completely different reasons. So surely I'm a living example of somebody who is at least aware of the world of different music out there, yet still enjoys a variety of music, which includes mainstream pop?

[JJJJH]

Someone may prefer a 99p McDonalds burger to, I dunno, a finely cooked steak by a world-reknowned chef.  Who's to say they wouldn't enjoy the steak more if they worked on developing their palette?

How about this radical concept... people liking the cheap burger and the expensive burger... at the same fucking time!

[gazzyk1ns]

I was sat in the bath on Sunday afternoon, and as the shitty radio in there can only really pick up Radio 1 without annoying interference, I had the official chart show on. It was the first time I'd heard it for years, and whilst I knew it would be cack, I was genuinely shocked at how bad most of the stuff was... especially Williams' new single. I usually don't mind accidentally having his stuff on in the background (as opposed to, say, 50 Cent, for which I would stop doing what I was doing and prevent it from entering my ears) but the pile of shit that he's churned out there is incredible, it's like he's performing a little experiment to see how dire he can be before even the 12 year-old girls stop and say "Erm, hold on, this is ludicrous...".

Actually, two things; firstly, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually was doing that, to amuse himself. I know he said a couple of years ago that he had run out of material and felt that after whatever single he was talking about, he'd only be able to release crap. I think he'd probably love to to be remembered as the person who was so popular that he could release anything and it would be successful, too... which brings me to my second point. This single (it's called 'Rudebox') was a new entry; and it came in at number 30. A couple of years ago, a new Williams single coming in at that sort of position would have been unthinkable, wouldn't it? Maybe people are starting to ignore him.

[Whirlybird]

I just don't think these things are as black and white as you make out.

But I think you know that they are, at least on a personal level.  There's no value in saying 'let's just agree to disagree.'  Especially on discussion forums.  

Also, there's passion, and then there's derivative snobbery. I have absolutely no problem with you saying why you believe The Pipettes (for example) are a bad band, but there's no point attacking the people who enjoy them. That's not a healthy debate, and it's one that's going to loop. It's not so much that I would find that offensive, but rather I would consider it an invalid argument against the music itself. I wouldn't say I've got a particularly vast musical knowledge (relatively speaking), but I can obviously tell a world of difference between The Pipettes (for example) and The Ecstacy of Saint Theresa (for example). Yet, I like both them equally and for completely different reasons. So surely I'm a living example of somebody who is at least aware of the world of different music out there, yet still enjoys a variety of music, which includes mainstream pop?

Ok, that's interesting.  However - again - I don't have an anti-pop stance.  Just an anti-bad-music one.  

And should we really seperate the music and the fan, shouldn't the people it's aimed at be taken into consideration?  Look at it this way, The Daily Mail is a problem, but so are the people who buy it.

[Whirlybird]

Someone may prefer a 99p McDonalds burger to, I dunno, a finely cooked steak by a world-reknowned chef.  Who's to say they wouldn't enjoy the steak more if they worked on developing their palette?

How about this radical concept... people liking the cheap burger and the expensive burger... at the same fucking time!

Are they on Atkins or something?

[Cack Hen]

And should we really seperate the music and the fan, shouldn't the people it's aimed at be taken into consideration?  Look at it this way, The Daily Mail is a problem, but so are the people who buy it.

Yeah but they're not the root of the issue. As we all know, the best debates are to be had at the root of the matter.

[Whirlybird]

And should we really seperate the music and the fan, shouldn't the people it's aimed at be taken into consideration?  Look at it this way, The Daily Mail is a problem, but so are the people who buy it.

Yeah but they're not the root of the issue. As we all know, the best debates are to be had at the root of the matter.

I'm not sure I agree though...they're creating the demand, after all.  I think you can't really seperate them, the right-wing paper needs right-wing twits to peddle fear to, and the right-wing twits need something to fear.

[sam and janet evening]

I actually heard that 'Rudebox' thing last night and here's the thing...
Whatever you may say about it - Ham-fisted (yup), Charmless (actually I think it has a certain silly charm, but ok), tuneless (pretty much) - it's not bland is it? I mean certainly not in the context of modern chart music. It's really quite a bizarre thing, it also borders on being a (intentional) comedy record. These are I would suggest quite admirable things for someone in Mr Williams' position.
I defended Williams' fans earlier on in this thread (someone called them 'cunts' for singing along at Live8) and don't really want to give the impression that I'm a big fan of his, but I do think that as far as modern chart pop goes his heart is usually in the right place. He tries stuff that may well leave him looking stupid (Rudebox being a good example, and before someone jumps in and goes "ah, but he knows he's untouchable in the meedja, bear in mind that the Sun -which has more sway over (what is thought to be) his fanbase than any music mag - absolutely savaged this thing a few weeks back), he does things that are interesting (Trippin') and he does things that have been given some though ('Advertising Space' which I didn't much like, but at least it had some sort of thought behind it). He can be truly detestable when he's being lazy - 'Sexed-up' being the worst offender I can think of - I accept, but I fail to see why he gats such a savaging round here.

And again the contempt levelled at people who do happen to like him staggers me. But there you are.

[gazzyk1ns]

I think it is bland, because the only bit which doesn't sound ridiculous to me is the chorus, but that's the first half of the 'Rock DJ' chorus after it's been through an electronic filter in Cool Edit '96. I've grabbed it and upped it so people can have a listen (link), I'd be interested if anyone doesn't think it's horrendous (heh, I don't mean to be rude sam and janet, you know what I mean).