Contrapoints

[Chollis]

hi, i'm gay actor Michael Douglas

[Mister Six]

its a bit fucking funny since ive posted numerous times about how Sargon of Akkad is the worst to me both contentwise and politically. and in terms of his behaviour. ive posted numerous long rants singling him out and going on about how disgusting/stupid he is to me. and been applauded for it on CaB.

That's fine, but are those people who applauded the ones in this thread? And if so, do you think maybe they just don't remember your previous rants that provide the context for your comments in here? I don't know about anyone else, but I only have the vaguest impressions of individual posters, usually based around their most prominent likes/dislikes and most recent activity, and I'm not making mental notes on what specific opinions they've expressed about stuff going back months or years (or even weeks) unless it really surprised/repelled me.

Again - and I might be forgetting something, but I don't think I am - within the context of this thread, what most people saw was a rant about PT's shitty philosophy videos and rants equating her repeatedly with Sargon, without explaining that Sargon also does philosophy videos, and that you are equating them purely on the level and quality of their philosophy-focused output.

I'll wager most people here haven't seen Sargon's philosophy/ethics/history videos and just know him as a cunt who says horrible stuff. That's the lens through which people less engaged with this subject are going to view that comparison. So it just needs a little bit of context to explain that you're making the comparison purely based on the similarities in the quality (or lack) of their output, not equating "annoying horsey drama student/bad philosophy 'teacher' YouTuber" with "horrible racist cunt YouTuber".

[Video Game Fan 2000]

if it's me and yer granny on twitter
it's ratio

MAN WATCHING VIDEO
THE HEART KEEPS ON TICKING

THE RATIO

[Video Game Fan 2000]

I'll wager most people here haven't seen Sargon's philosophy/ethics/history videos and just know him as a cunt who says horrible stuff. That's the lens through which people less engaged with this subject are going to view that comparison. So it just needs a little bit of context to explain that you're making the comparison purely based on the similarities in the quality (or lack) of their output, not equating "annoying horsey drama student/bad philosophy 'teacher' YouTuber" with "horrible racist cunt YouTuber".

sure. i can agree with this.

but its something surprises me since so much online discourse is about these hate figures and what they do, how they fit in, the effect they have, etc. to me not knowing/caring that Carl Benjamin's empire is built on shitty educational content and pseudohistorical lecture/podcast content is a bit like not knowing that Alex Jones is a radio conspiracy theorist or Andrew Tate gives business advice. its what he does. my point in its entirity is that you can't seperate that out from the "bad behaviour" - so when there's a big overlap between attitudes on the hard right and squishy progressives, specifically as it relates to the elevation of certain forms of personality-based media, that's notable to me. its the centration around personalities who are good, trustworthy, etc. thats most worthy of comment i think. that the arguments are supposedly about "educational content" but it comes down quickly to attacking/defending entirely based on personalities. part of the equivalence is in the deliberate exploitation of that tendency for notoriety and income.

its another way contrapoints was salutary, the way she managed to make bank by playing in dialogue with this and making it part of the satirical side of her videos without ever really sinking into it. to be critical it was always ironic as fuck and often noncommital on some serious issues as a result but you couldnt say it wasnt smart or funny. even now when i really dont like her stuff much anymore, she's managed to stay aloof for the most part

[Mister Six]

but its something surprises me since so much online discourse is about these hate figures and what they do, how they fit in, the effect they have, etc.

Maybe you're spending too much time in these arenas of online discourse? To those outside it, Sargon's just some shit they heard about on the news, or were warned away from years ago. There's not much reason for most people here on CaB to engage with his output, so we didn't. And that stuff didn't filter down from the more leftist/right-wing Youtuber discourse stuff on Twitter or wherever. 

(And I didn't know Andrew Tate gave business advice - I thought he was more about the manosphere grift of telling young boys and clueless teens to treat women like shit.)

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Maybe you're spending too much time in these arenas of online discourse? To those outside it, Sargon's just some shit they heard about on the news, or were warned away from years ago.

i used to. but years ago, i think its was probably because i was ill and it was tangently related to the political side of the things i was studying then (views on gender and postcolonial stuff mainly) and my partner was doing a doctorate on contemporary feminism at the time, so we were both deeply mired in it out of necessity... and online extremism was like THEE hot topic in every conference i attended for a few years. couldnt get away from it, and i think sense of "oh no, we're going to fuck this up aren't we?" in Contrapoints videos just after that period adequately reflects the prevailing gloominess around both 'the discourse' and 'discourse' in general as way of understanding things. i cannot overstate how much it penetrated real life political stuff for a period between 2013 and 2018ish, it was inescapable. everything was twitter facebook tumblr. it was the wave of the future, the last thing and everyone was fixated on it all the time. wokeness kind of killed off the seriousness in a way, clearly marks the point of irrelevance where the wave of the future just became of the humdrum same old.

one of my biggest memories of the time was being out drinking with my partner, and we were discussing contrapoints, specifically laughing about the Golden One stuff... one of the party of young students behind us overheard and started loudly making "i identify as an attack helicopter" type jokes in english in response to hearing me mention Contrapoints. which was my moment of, jesus this really has permeated real life in a way thats going to be impossible to undo

im still pretty interested in radicalism and extremisms in popular media. but im definitely not nearly as in touch with it was i was a while back. its actually pretty stressful when you know a shit-ton about something like online white supremacy or misogyny as a political extremism, and see how fucking bad it is then when you're exposed to the superficial and convenient ways its spoken about by people who are by and large insulated from the negative effects because of status and class. i think the dismal inefficacy of this approach specifically around Trump and Brexit, and how obvious/unsaleably false the liberal narrative around all that were, really punctured it. so in a certain sense its not early as bad as it was when it comes to the amount of useless shit discourse around online radicalism. you still see people make up things from whole cloth and the guardian go "wow, really" about it all but not as often as 2016/2017 

yeah and Andrew Tate's whole thing is "making it" - that's the come-on,  how he's became so insidious. part of his deal is proposing "courses" at "hustler university" (its like a pyramid scheme) on business, how make money, how to manage finances, how to keep customers and manage employees (aimed towards people who will never ever get employees) ... then once your part of it he starts with the hardcore misogyny and conspiracy theories. the shocking stuff in video clips is pretty calculated, its meant to raise his notoriety as someone ((they)) don't want you to listen to, the meat and potatos of the woman hating is mundane and grim, real case of the banality of evil. its not alwas the viscerally shocking shit you might expect from his image. its a lot like scientology and other traditional cults. they offer a pamphlet on relaxation techniques, then they offer you sessions where you do personality tests... and crank it up until you're ready to believe the conspiracy stuff around psychologists and income tax which is all a lot more mudane than the space opera, psychic power stuff might lead you to believe. i think its really important to understand exactly what these guys are selling to make them so popular, and not just rely on the cartoon version you get in liberal bubbles or in the guardian or huffpo or wherever. you only see the surface level a lot because online media doesnt want you to see how complict everything can be just an inch beneath the top soil, at least complicit in the sense of sharing the same ecosystem built on outrage and in-group/out-group frot(h)ing.

[Mister Six]

i cannot overstate how much it penetrated real life political stuff for a period between 2013 and 2018ish, it was inescapable.

Yeah, I remember that. I was pretty heavily involved in Facebook progressive/so-called leftist groups from about 2015-2017/18 or so, and they drove me a bit loopy. Just full of absolute arseholes using decent political viewpoints to excuse all kinds of shitty behaviour, directed at "the other side", their supposed allies, anyone who looked at them funny. The worst mix of know-nothing idiots, mostly aged 18-24, probably, all cosplaying as Maoists demanding "self-crits", or liberal melts, or whatever. Endless knee-jerk reactions passed off as intellectual discourse. Bad-faith takes. Drama.

I got so addicted this stuff I'd walk home tapping out long arguments in the shitty little Facebook app, and would rant about it to real-life friends who'd look at me with confused/concerned faces.

Eventually, I realised that most people genuinely didn't know or give a shit about all this stuff - even when it filtered up through lazy journo hack cunts, it was just something they saw on their way to the next photo story leering over Cindy Crawford's teenage daughter or whatever - so I sacked it off. And I've been much happier since. YMMV and all that.

[FeederFan500]

Tate's misogyny gets focused on because it's undeniably terrible in the eyes of most people so an easy win for media reporting on it. It's why Dapper Laughs got rumbled for saying "gagging for a rape" to an audience member rather than generally being a twat around women in Sainsbury's or on a station platform for the lolz. Rape is shocking and bad, treating women like objects is bad in the case of Tate. Taking apart Tate's aspirational content is more difficult to make a story of but it's what keeps people watching, because How to be Successful has more money in it.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

yes, its impossible answer the question "why does Tate have such a hold over young teen boys" without recognising that part of his gimmick is presenting misogyny as a direct outgrowth from financial freedom and self-responsibility, and the outward sign of a man who is likely to make it.

i dont think you can silo the aspirational content from the course from the misogyny from the conspiracy theory. he's successful because he presents it as continuous. if anything, misogyny is the major thing to aspire to his world: if you treat your employees like shit, swindle your customers then maybe one day you'll wealthy enough to treat women like shit without consequence. part of the difference between him and other grifters who repackage the same Robert Kiyosaki bootstrap self-help is he conspicuously does not endorse hedonism and consumption in the way that other aspirational figures do. there's no point where you can put your feet up after making a milli, wealth is just another treadmill. the other guys all have the message that once you have property and passive income, your own life can really begin. but he's all about the acquisition, but its not really manly if you actively enjoy it. you need to be grinding and hustling all the time. you acquire the luxuries, you don't appreciate them - that would be womanly. in this world misogyny and sexual violence fulfills the place that ostentation blingbling and high living has for others. his image is potent: he's in the luxury private jet or next to the custom car, but he's dressed in a minimalist way. he's got a cigar or a drink. he's not like a rapper covered in gold and luxury products. its about acquisition, more than consumption. its scarily effective place from which to preach about degenerated, decadent society to young working class or immigrant boys for whom burger king is a treat

[pigamus]

I've changed my mind please post another unreadable screed it greatly improves the forum

I've no dog in the fight but a long densely argued post is not 'unreadable'

[dontpaintyourteeth]

agree to disagree. can't really be arsed

[Mister Six]

Tate's misogyny gets focused on because it's undeniably terrible in the eyes of most people so an easy win for media reporting on it. It's why Dapper Laughs got rumbled for saying "gagging for a rape" to an audience member rather than generally being a twat around women in Sainsbury's or on a station platform for the lolz. Rape is shocking and bad, treating women like objects is bad in the case of Tate. Taking apart Tate's aspirational content is more difficult to make a story of but it's what keeps people watching, because How to be Successful has more money in it.

I dunno, human trafficking and rape seems like a reasonable thing to focus on when you're looking at Tate's CV.

That said, from reading around a bit I do agree with this:

i dont think you can silo the aspirational content from the course from the misogyny from the conspiracy theory. he's successful because he presents it as continuous. if anything, misogyny is the major thing to aspire to his world: if you treat your employees like shit, swindle your customers then maybe one day you'll wealthy enough to treat women like shit without consequence.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

more literally, the trafficking is directly integrated into his pyramid scheme scams. its not like there's a legit side as as front then the crimes seperately, its all part of the same recruitment. he grooms people to act as recruiters for his organisation, and milks them for money once they're in. so the pressure is on to recruit more people. that's why it spread so quickly in schools, you're supposed to share and promote it to get ahead as part of the hustler mentality he's promoting. which is different to others in his category, where its about keeping your edge and knowledge is power and all that.

looking at it from the outside you see that he needs the "extreme misogynist" lifestyle in order to make his money. its the image he depends on. but inside his bubble he presents it as just incidental, the shit that comes with mega success. the marks and disillusioned adolescents who fall of it don't see how managed it is, they're groomed into seeing it as the inevitable fruits of the hustle. he's whole thing is not caring, especially not caring about women. every second not spent earning a dollar is wasted. his pose is that he doesn't care about the lifestyle, it just all comes to him because of his mega wealth.

the other part i think is that its meant to make young boys feel weak. the purpose of the more extreme statements, the stressing uncaringness, etc. isn't to make people replicate that exactly. its to make them feel weak, less manly, etc. so they'll become resentful which makes them easier makes for the meat and potatos of it all. in a way its right for the media to focus on the extreme stuff, but its not so good to focus on it in away that overlooks how systematic and ideologically driven it is. and you have to look at the economic side too, the hustle and the promise of respect through wealth, to see why it became as ubiquitous as it did. youngsters may turn to these guys because they're craving respect or intimacy and worried they can't get it, and then the first they hear is that wanting intimacy and respect makes you cuck pussy and you need to be a hustler instead.

[Dex Sawash]

ive posted numerous long rants

This never happened

[ishantbekeepingit]

well annoying these lot being The Face of Transsexuals

Yep, this is my broad takeaway as well.  It's especially galling with PT because it seems like she basically came out and immediately tried to position herself as "the most prominent British trans person" or some-such.  Huge self-regard and lack of respect for the people who were working for decades before she started her internet video show.

But who do we have?  Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees, India fucking Willoughby?  Yasmin Finney, even though she mainly seems to be sticking to her acting career?  It does seem like trans people have been completely shut out of British mainstream media.

[RetroRobot]

I consider everyone involved in this story to be Nick Mullen dabbling in performance art

[jamiefairlie]

Imagine calling yourself Sargon. Just imagine it.

[Cold Meat Platter]

[pigamus]

Imagine calling yourself Sargon. Just imagine it.

If he makes my washing machine live longer I'm not bothered

[lauraxsynthesis]

Page 18 and I still don't know if PT is "skinwalking" Contrapoints

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

get them youtoobers down to skinwalker ranch

[Kankurette]

Yep, this is my broad takeaway as well.  It's especially galling with PT because it seems like she basically came out and immediately tried to position herself as "the most prominent British trans person" or some-such.  Huge self-regard and lack of respect for the people who were working for decades before she started her internet video show.

But who do we have?  Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees, India fucking Willoughby?  Yasmin Finney, even though she mainly seems to be sticking to her acting career?  It does seem like trans people have been completely shut out of British mainstream media.

What's Roz Kaveney up to these days?