Record Player?

[Beagle 2]

I'm desperate to start a vinyl collection, as all my listening is done on my computer these days and I miss the physical form of music. CD's are just so naff and tacky and I just don't see the point when I can get the same quality on download. I love browsing second hand record shops and see stuff I lust after all the time, but I aint got anything to play them on yet! So I'm looking to get a turntable, budget up to a hundred squids. What's the best bet? Maybe one of these USB chappies so I can put it through my computer, I don't actually own a stereo any more...

[nrgroom]

I've got one of these:

http://www.firebox.com/product/1401/USB-Turntable?aff=1272&gclid=CMnS5onHuJcCFQhOMAodcFaOTg

I'm no expert on hi-fi, but you get a good sound quality, it's easy to set-up via your PC, plus the software lets you rip the audio to mp3 etc etc. I bought an extension lead, cos I have to put it on a separate table away from my computer due to space issues.

On a related note, on my way back from the Job Centre, I picked up Seamonsters on vinyl for one shiny pound coin. The slight crackly sound adds to the whole experience on some albums, this being a particularly good example.

[Beagle 2]

Yeah I'm thinking one of those sorts of things might be the best bet. I mean, aesthetically something like this woulld be lush:

http://www.robertopiecollection.com/Application/Products/steepletone/record-players-GB.asp

But I bet the sound quality is bobbins.

[The Region Legion]

Well if you don't own a stereo then you really only have a USB turntable as a choice unless you want to go out and buy an A/D converter of some type (like a music production device). Any turntable you buy is going to need a phono preamp as well to get the signal up to listening levels (and even then it sometimes needs an extra push).

However, I'd very much recommend a stereo. These things don't need to be expensive and don't need to be top-of-the-line new to be good. I bought a second-hand turntable for £25 a few months ago - a Pioneer PL-15D - replaced the cartridge/needle and I'm left with a better turntable than my £300 Rega P2 (the best new model at that price range). The same holds true for amps and speakers. I reckon for the price of a USB turntable - around £100 - you could probably set yourself up with a sweet vintage sound system, probably minus the speakers and phono preamp (although some amps have them built in).

If you don't want to go for that, at least consider a second hand turntable with a phono preamp with USB output - NAD and Pro-ject do ones, but I don't know how they work (ie. you might have to put a program on your PC into record mode to hear the output, as it's designed as a standard phono preamp first and a way to digitise your vinyl second).

[NoSleep]

Well if you don't own a stereo then you really only have a USB turntable as a choice unless you want to go out and buy an A/D converter of some type (like a music production device). Any turntable you buy is going to need a phono preamp as well to get the signal up to listening levels (and even then it sometimes needs an extra push).

...

If you don't want to go for that, at least consider a second hand turntable with a phono preamp with USB output - NAD and Pro-ject do ones, but I don't know how they work (ie. you might have to put a program on your PC into record mode to hear the output, as it's designed as a standard phono preamp first and a way to digitise your vinyl second).

I think the idea of putting together a decent deck with a phono preamp and an audio interface is a good route to go. The cheapness of USB Phono decks will reflect the sound you'll get from them. You may end up regretting the outlay when you have to redo the whole lot to find that extra warmth that went missing.

I'll leave the hifi experts to suggest a deck and preamp (a Planar deck sounds like a good bet and I have an old TEAC preamp myself), but for the audio interface I suggest you take a look at the Lexicon Alpha, as it will enable you to control the input from the deck to the computer; something you would be unable to do with a USB deck. There are better audio interfaces, but they can cost as much as you're looking to spend overall.

[23 Daves]

I could be talking completely out of my arse here, but the Firebox mentioned above does seem to use one of those cheap red "snap-on" plastic cartridges to hold the stylus - and decks like that have always had a slightly iffy sound quality in my experience.  Of course, it could be that these are favoured by companies producing low budget players and the stylus has little to do with the overall effect, but it's always made me suspicious.... if my fears are groundless, please let me know, because it has put me off many a purchase.

I would honestly go with the option of getting a proper stereo set up - second hand, if need be.  I bought a CD Recorder years ago, back before I had a PC capable of burning CDs (yes, it was a long time ago) and I'm actually still using that to convert vinyl to a digital format.  The results are still the same, and in some cases much better.  I've heard some really awful, top-heavy vinyl to PC rips in the last few years, and in most cases I find myself thinking that I could do a lot better with the set-up I've got.

CD Recorders are expensive and impractical for somebody starting out from scratch, obviously, but I'm sure there's some software you can get that hooks up ordinary stereos to PCs... erm... anyone?

[Marty McFly]

23 Daves mentions my second hands.

Yes, second hand is definitely the way to go, especially when it comes to vinyl. that is, of course, valid for hardware and software. Probably about 65% of my vinyl has come from car boot sales and charity shops. it's amazingly cheap as well as amazingly cool.. nothing beats the LP experience. (joints optional)

while I love hearing those clicks and pops when just listening to records, when transferring rare unavailable on CD material to the computer I do my utmost to remove them, which isn't all difficult when you know how to spot them in an audio editor. I also use a program that is by and large incredibly effective at removing noise in an automated fashion, which is a real timesaver.

my current turntable is a Dual 503-1 that I got on eBay for the grand sum of £27. though it doesn't play at 78rpm the sound quality is much much better than my old deck, one of those cheap midi-sized Sony models that's too small to fit a whole 12" on - and is currently selling at about £90 new on Amazon. eBay, of course, has some real bargains (though P+P tends to be a fair amount for a turntable), as does Gumtree. I'd say that for around £75 (including P+P) you can get a really nice sounding vintage turntable, so £100 will be more than plenty. if your town has a Salvation Army shop, go and have a look.. the one in Norwich has the occasional record player and also amplifiers. Cash Converters and similar places too.

as Daves says - get a proper stereo set up. a half-decent amp with line (or 'tape') inputs and outputs can easily be connected to your sound card with the right cables; get an amp with a phono input, obviously, or you'll have to shell out for an external pre-amp. if you're determined to run the record player directly into your PC all the time, you'll definitely need a pre-amp.

[The Region Legion]

Talking of cracks and pops, you can get rid of those with a very interesting method I discovered elsewhere. Wood Glue.

That's right, Wood Glue. You cover the surface of the record in a PVC glue, wait for it to dry and peel off the layer. All the miniscule particles of dirt lift off with the glue and you have a practically new copy of your ancient second hand vinyl. Most pops and clicks are caused by this and not scratches as most assume. It really is a remarkable transformation.

[weekender]

Coo, that's interesting (no, really!).

I was going to say that I think depending on your budget, there might be two possibilities:

1) A cheap stereo player for all your old second-hand vinyl which you can pick up very cheaply;
2) A good record player for all your good vinyl that you want to treasure and get the full experience from.

I mean, that's what I do, but if The Region Legion's thing works then there's no need to consider this.

Hmm, I picked up a copy of a record from my childhood called 'All Aboard' a few years ago, and the quality of the vinyl was shocking for pops and clicks.  I never really looked into it and gave up on the record (it was 20p), but I might try the Wood Glue technique at some point and see if it works (it was 20p).  No reason to doubt TRL, but until someone else has tested it I wouldn't recommend pouring any sort of glue over your vinyl :)

[NoSleep]

I've never heard of using PVA Wood Glue to clean a record, but it sounds feasible. I may try it on something that doesn't matter and see how it goes. I've always used Isopropryl Alcohol and soaked it up with a Permaclean Duo-Pad; the Permaclean brand cleaning fluid is a bit costlier, and there's several recipes for mixing up a mix of Isopropryl Alcohol, Detergent & Distilled Water around if you Google.

[The Region Legion]

Alright bastards, if you don't trust me, here's some pictures of me doing it to a Busta Rhymes 12" that started crackly and came out like a CD.


Here's the pattern I usually start with, then I spread it around with a credit card, although you'd probably be better off doing it with a soft paintbrush instead since the card can be a little imprecise and if you have little flecks seperate from the main chunk of glue it's a bitch to get off.


Fully covered - the black spots are places where the glue was a little thinner and dried quickly.


Almost dry...


And that's what I'm talking about. That's all invisible grime that the glue has lifted out of the grooves.


Carefully peeled off, you can get it in one.


Admittedly, I still haven't done it on anything valuable in fear of completely botching it somehow but I'm sure it would be fine and it should go without saying to NOT do this with 78s, acetates etc. because the stuff they're made of is different and could react badly with the glue. Records from the 50s onwards should be fine, and everything from the 70s onwards definitely will be.

[rudi]

That. Is. Amazing.

[NoSleep]

I'm sold as well, although it lacks the instant gratification of using alcohol, and must be time/space consuming if you have a batch to clean.

[23 Daves]

I presently own a Sherwood PS 9700 record player, by the way, which was dirt cheap brand new (about 120 pounds if I remember rightly) and has served me very well.  I'm not sure if they're still made, but they've got a very strong, bass-heavy sound, and I did meet one DJ once who had one in his lounge for listening (rather than mixing) purposes.

Interesting stuff with the wood glue - the idea of doing it puts the fear of God into me, but I might just give it a go one of these days when I've got a spare few minutes.

[actwithoutwords]

That looks incredibly satisfying. I have a few records that need a clean alright, I might try that just for the pleasure of peeling the skin off.

[NattyDread]

If I was looking for a brand new inexpensive turntable I'd be seriously tempted by this:
http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/3682
Looks like a bit of a bargain.

I'd heard of the wood glue trick but never tried it as I was worried it wouldn't come off in one piece. Trying to pick off little bits would probably scratch it to buggery. Those pics make it look easy though so I'll be trying that. Cheers.

[NoSleep]

It just occured to me: If you do get a spot of the glue separated from the main body I can see that it could be a problem to remove on its own. But what if you applied another coat, or even just a strip to the edge, over the offending spot? Couldn't you lift it easily then?

[The Region Legion]

It just occured to me: If you do get a spot of the glue separated from the main body I can see that it could be a problem to remove on its own. But what if you applied another coat, or even just a strip to the edge, over the offending spot? Couldn't you lift it easily then?

Yes, pretty much. The only reason you want to be careful to get it all in the main body in one is because it takes about 4 hours to dry, and that was using a quick-dry glue. I found the biggest problem was when the glue was a little too thin in the groove area, which would then break away when trying to lift it. It would then be stuck in the groove, and trying to get it out with your fingernail would mean literally scratching at the groove itself, rather than the surface. But as you say, put another coat on and it comes out no problem.

I might try and do a sound comparison sometime but it'll probably have to wait until after Christmas - have an original copy of Five Leaves Left that is absolutely knackered back home, very curious to see how much this could affect it.

[Beagle 2]

I think I will go for a USB jobby against all advice here (why did I ask!) simply because I live in a flat small enough to make it pointless getting an oomphy system, I can't be arsed fecking about searching for second hand bits and bobs and I've never been much of a sound quality snob anyway. (Was contemplating this, but actually I imagine that really would be the pits...)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/TRANSFER-VINYL-CONVERT-MUSIC-CENTRE/dp/B00186NJ8A/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229099425&sr=8-15

So most probably this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soundlab-Professional-Turntable-Supplied-Plastic/dp/B000UH0QPW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229100862&sr=1-5

And I want to try the woodglue thing. Looks fun. Might just try it on some cutlery or the cat or something, just for a larf.

[NattyDread]

Aside from the day to day carbon fibre brush, I use this for manky records:


It does a decent enough job, but unless you get a vacuum based machine (or use the wood glue trick). brush cleaning will always push dirt into the grooves. That machine just really loosens them so playing records after they've been through it leaves lots of stoor on your needle. I'll only play them on the decks til the stoor's lifted and they're safe to go near my better cartridge.

A small paintbrush (that's never been near paint or turps of course) is great for cleaning your stylus, if you didn't get one with it.

[The Region Legion]

most probably this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soundlab-Professional-Turntable-Supplied-Plastic/dp/B000UH0QPW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229100862&sr=1-5

Yeah, that does actually look alright. Others to look out for include the Stanton T.90, which is an attempt to make a USB turntable and a competent DJ turntable in one (only heard it once but was alright, bit more expensive though) and this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Numark-USB-TURNTABLE-AUDIO-INTERFACE/dp/B000G3FNVM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229108632&sr=8-3

Which is by Numark which is a brand you can usually rely on.

[23 Daves]

I might try and do a sound comparison sometime but it'll probably have to wait until after Christmas - have an original copy of Five Leaves Left that is absolutely knackered back home, very curious to see how much this could affect it.

In a Joe Boyd-related link, I've also got a seven inch copy of the Incredible String Band's "Painting Box" which is practically unplayable there's so much surface noise - would be interested to see what difference a bit of treatment does it.  It does seem quite nastily scratched, though.  I picked it up for next-to-no money.

[The Region Legion]

In a Joe Boyd-related link, I've also got a seven inch copy of the Incredible String Band's "Painting Box" which is practically unplayable there's so much surface noise - would be interested to see what difference a bit of treatment does it.  It does seem quite nastily scratched, though.  I picked it up for next-to-no money.

If they're actually scratches then it'll do almost nothing to make it playable again, but it's possible that a lot of what appear to be scratches are just surface marks.


Also, I forgot to mention, removing the glue creates a lot of static charge on the vinyl so best to get rid of that before playing it.

[Ambient Sheep]

If you don't want to go for that, at least consider a second hand turntable with a phono preamp with USB output - NAD and Pro-ject do ones, but I don't know how they work...

Oooh, does anybody else know any more and/or can recommend one?

I ask because I've been meaning to start a topic along similar lines for ages.  I have a great turntable (Rega Planar 3 with Linn K9 cartridge), nice speakers (B&W 550s), but sadly the Mission Cyrus 1 amp I bought at the same time (1989, I think) went shitty after just five or six years with terminal hum, noisy switches, and disintegrating headphone socket problems, before finally getting "mislaid" during a house move.

So, I've got lots of vinyl that I'm dying to play, and have been contemplating getting a new amp for a while.  I was thinking along the lines of the latest £200-£300 NAD; whatever their updated version of the 3020 is now called.  However last time I looked, a few years ago, their latest amp didn't have its own phono pre-amp, however they were selling one separately for £30 (which seemed a bit cheap for good results, to be honest!). 

So, two questions:

1. What would people suggest as a modern-day Mission Cyrus / NAD 3020 equivalent?  (The Mission Cyrus may have fallen apart, but it sounded fucking brilliant; and a friend had the NAD and that sounded great too, and didn't fall apart.)  I must confess I haven't really got the funds for a brand-new amp right now, but I'd like to know what I should aspire to.

2. Can anybody recommend a good phono pre-amp that's up to the quality of the rest of the kit?  One with USB sounds intriguing (as in a hi-fi bit of kit it'd probably give better results than my PCs integrated soundcard, although I appreciate it's not as good as feeding it into a quality soundcard yourself), but is not essential.

I realise I'm being a bit lazy here, especially as I've done no research at all before writing this, but since (a) it's always good to get personal recommendations, and (b) the thread's right here, right now, at the top of the forum, I thought I'd be cheeky and ask.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


P.S.  That glue trick looks great, I must try it sometime.

[Marty McFly]

2. Can anybody recommend a good phono pre-amp that's up to the quality of the rest of the kit?  One with USB sounds intriguing (as in a hi-fi bit of kit it'd probably give better results than my PCs integrated soundcard, although I appreciate it's not as good as feeding it into a quality soundcard yourself), but is not essential.

http://www.needles-and-spins.co.uk/pd_artcessories.cfm looks like a good bet...

[The Region Legion]

with terminal hum, noisy switches, and disintegrating headphone socket problems

Not that it means much now that you've lost it, but all of those sound like perfectly simple problems to solve. The hum was probably a ground loop, the switches were probably just dirty (open up the case and give them a blast of compressed air) and I don't really know what you mean by disintegrating headphone socket, but if I take it to mean that he socket was actually falling apart then a replacement would have been maybe £1. Best to remember for next time though.


As for gear suggestions, I'd usually go buy a copy of What Hi-Fi, check out the product listings and ratings in the back and choose whichever one they say is the best in a certain price range. They're usually pretty bang on.

[thugler]

I'd avoid the usb route, it won't sound as good. You can get preamps which are connectable via usb anyway. I've got one of those Project ones and have been very pleased with it, it's so much fun thumbing through charity shop vinyl.

[23 Daves]

Not that I want to spoil a good thing for myself, but seven-inch loving whores based in London (and phwoaar! We're all seven inch loving whores round here aren't we, eh, eh?) might want to take a look in the Camden High Street Music and Video Exchange at the moment.  They've got tons of dirt cheap seven inch vinyl, most of it not that great, but plenty of it sufficiently interesting.

I've managed to pick up for two quid a copy of The Creation's guitarist Eddy Phillips doing his racist seventies novelty record "Limbo Jimbo" about a Jamaican immigrant (nice B-side, though), Alexei Sayle's "Allo John Got A New Motor" for 50p, The Cuban Boys "Oh My God They Killed Kenny" for 50p, "Arthur Daley E's Alright" for 25p, and then... pre-fame Elton John covers for two quid ("Skyline Pigeon" on Page One Records in 1970), some rare Charisma stuff for two quid, some American sixties sunshine pop singles for a quid, Earl Brutus singles for two quid, lots of obscure punk singles for a quid a time... the list goes on and on frankly.

The collector's market seems to be in pretty bad shape at the moment, so things that should rake in a small sum of money are going for peanuts now, and I'd honestly say that I feel more grateful that I own a record player now than I have at any point in the last three years or so.  This stuff is just being marked up for less than the cost of a chocolate bar in some cases.  That said, I overheard a friend of the store manager telling him he was "ridiculously underpricing items" a few weeks back, so it might not continue for much longer.

[Beagle 2]

Funnily enough Daves that was the exact shop I was browsing around last week drooling when I finally decided I had to treat myself to one. I know nothing about the market really, the prices seemed all over the place, fpr example some gorgeous Stones stuff that looked really rare and unique going for not much at all, and regular Beatles albums going for loads, when I assumed Beatles albums would be ten a penny. It was all much cheaper than I would have expected though.

[23 Daves]

The Beatles market is a total nonsense at the moment - they're just making up reasons why things are 'rare' now.  For instance, it's a recent trend to price up EMI outsource pressings for more money - so if you've got a copy of "Hey Jude" that was pressed by the Pye or Decca plant rather than EMI due to unanticipated demand, you can sell it as a 'rarity', despite the fact that the content is exactly the same and the only possible difference would be the smoothness of the label and the number of prongs the push-out middle section has. 

I've seen numerous other out-source pressings by other sixties bands in bargain buckets, so why this is a rule which applies only to The Beatles I've no idea. 

Also, touristy bits of London always over-price Beatles stock because they can.  Stores are always filled with people saying "Where are Beatles, please?" and I even get asked by foreigners about Beatles stuff just when I'm browsing and minding my own business, so I think they can get away with stamping their material with any old price they want.

Anyway, yes... cheap vinyl. The great thing about MVC is that if it doesn't sell, they'll keep dropping the price slowly until it does go, so you can almost return to the stores each week gambling on how low things will go.  I work about 100 yards away so it's easy enough for me, mind... not that I haven't made plenty of mistakes.