This anti-Trump's visit protest

[phantom_power]

Is it protesting that Donald Trump exists? He'll still exist after the protests. Is it a protest that the country that elected Obama twice and probably would have elected the first Jewish president if they'd been given the chance is a majority nazi country?

Are you being deliberately disingenuous here? If you are then fair enough, you do you, but if not then I would worry about your mental faculties or at least your clarity of thought. There is a whole raft of troubling stuff between "benign country" and "majority nazi country"

[garbed_attic]

I think this is a big reason why he gained and holds power.  We're being encouraged to think that opposing Trump is like opposing rain.  It's not.

Trump is the figurehead on a juggernaut that is chaotically mowing down our culture in an apparently random and meaningless way.  It's not random, just made to look that way so's no one can get a bead on it. Capitalism is dying and this tank is leveling the ground, splitting and isolating opposition, in preparation for a brave new empathy-free world where greed is god and nothing, nothing, is off limits. 

Everyone with any sense at all must oppose it.  Standing together and showing that we share common values and culture that we will not allow to fall is the right thing to do because it will show people everywhere that we will resist and they can too.  Trump is winning because we are not taking this (him) seriously.  This is not a shower of rain, it's a (human and fallible) shower of cunts that must be stopped if we value our peaceful lives.

Can I quote this on my FB please, Buellers?

[garbed_attic]

Because we keep believing that civility equates to goodness.

I keep seeing this lately... but how on earth is Trump civil???

[Buelligan]

Can I quote this on my FB please, Buellers?

You can do as you like with it my old darling.

[garbed_attic]

Well they might if you happened to mention when and where it was happening ....

July 13th. Assembling at 2pm outside the BBC building in Portland Place, marching to Trafalgar Square.

[greenman]

But this is a false equivalence and you know it. True, there should have been more outrage at Salman's visit, but it's different with Trump because of the country he represents. He is the president of the most powerful country in the west,  for better or worse the most important ally of the UK as far as our military interests are concerned (which I totally oppose) and this supposedly democratic country the west looks up to is quickly sliding towards tyranny and fascism.

So no, although of course we send the red carpet out for other despots and human rights abusers, it is totally different when such people are the president of the US. Context is everything, and the context here is the most powerful country in the world is hurtling towards fascism and the UK government seemingly doesn't give a shit.

That is something worth protesting about.

The Saudi's and the Chinese both play massive roles on the world stage, have far more questionable human rights records than Trump, aren't democratic and in the former case are a close UK ally(and the latter a close economic ally).

When you protest simply at Trumps visit I think you naturally setup the equivalency, protesting against the special relationship(or perhaps specific issues involved with it such as joint military strikes) would perhaps be more appropriate.

As with so many of these discussions I think what it comes down to many here thinking that Trump is being setup as some unique threat to a status quo that was otherwise acceptable. A rallying point for centralist establishment types to feel some righteous indignation about whilst totally failing to enguage in any kind of reflection that perhaps their own idealogy is what helped give rise to him. Pointing out the hypocrisy in the lack of protest at similar visits I think is very valid.

[Danger Man]

First place Trump visited after becoming President. The KSA.

He knows.

[Buelligan]

As with so many of these discussions I think what it comes down to many here thinking that Trump is being setup as some unique threat to a status quo that was otherwise acceptable.

That's not how I view it at all.  consider, Britain, Europe, the West, we don't take our political or cultural cues from China or Saudi Arabia do we?  No we do not.

Then think about idea that, rather than the status quo being acceptable, it's more correct to think of it as simply where we're at right now.  It's a point on an arc of travel. 

Many people fervently hope that the further we move along that arc, through time, the more Now, the point we're at, the status quo, will improve for everyone - not just so's we take more holidays and can afford to update our phones annually but so's little kiddies don't get washed up dead on holiday beaches in the Med or starve or die of shitting themselves or die of work or lose their limbs by treading on something unspeakable or breathe in pollution or nerve gas or the smell of their own dead parents (all of this and more is the status quo right now for a lot, lot, of people as I'm sure you know and it's not acceptable).

Moving forward along that arc of social progress towards something better is extremely important.  When someone like Trump comes along, with the intention of stopping progress, even reversing it or worse, changing direction and accelerating towards a darker even more terrible Now, every good-hearted person that gives even a mild fuck and has half a brain must prevent it.

[greenman]

That's not how I view it at all.  consider, Britain, Europe, the West, we don't take our political or cultural cues from China or Saudi Arabia do we?  No we do not.

Then think about idea that, rather than the status quo being acceptable, it's more correct to think of it as simply where we're at right now.  It's a point on an arc of travel. 

Many people fervently hope that the further we move along that arc, through time, the more Now, the point we're at, the status quo, will improve for everyone - not just so's we take more holidays and can afford to update our phones annually but so's little kiddies don't get washed up dead on holiday beaches in the Med or starve or die of shitting themselves or die of work or lose their limbs by treading on something unspeakable or breathe in pollution or nerve gas or the smell of their own dead parents (all of this and more is the status quo right now for a lot, lot, of people as I'm sure you know and it's not acceptable).

Moving forward along that arc of social progress towards something better is extremely important.  When someone like Trump comes along, with the intention of stopping progress, even reversing it or worse, changing direction and accelerating towards a darker even more terrible Now, every good-hearted person that gives even a mild fuck and has half a brain must prevent it.

We seem to take plenty of cues from the Saudi's and the Chinese to me when it comes to bloody middle eastern military interventions and ruthless capitalist races to the bottom.

Your dealing with an environment though were the importance of those things has been deliberately belittled by much of the establishment in favour of slick PR politics which Trump obviously contradicts far more than Xi or Salman. I mean again its the argument made 1000 times on CaB isn't it that you can be in favour of political correctness but still feel its being used as a mask by much of the establishment.

[Buelligan]

Yes that is obviously apparent but you're failing to see, we are not being presented with a choice of perfect or imperfect. 

Being so fastidious that you'd stand back and allow Hitler, for instance, to run Britain, because Blair was an authoritarian bitch may give one a momentary feeling of satisfaction but, in the longer term, it will result in an appalling price paid.  This is also obvious.

[greenman]

Yes that is obviously apparent but you're failing to see, we are not being presented with a choice of perfect or imperfect. 

Being so fastidious that you'd stand back and allow Hitler, for instance, to run Britain, because Blair was an authoritarian bitch may give one a momentary feeling of satisfaction but, in the longer term, it will result in an appalling price paid.  This is also obvious.

I mean that's basically the line people are being critical of isn't it? not that there in favour of Trump but they believe he's being built into some unique Hitleresque monster so dangerous that the focus on absolutely anything else is pointless, no time to point out hypocrisy with other unopposed visits, no time to comment on the reasons for his rise.

[Alberon]

There's time for both.

Trump is dangerous, but he's a strutting buffoon like Mussolini. The real worry is that he'll usher in the next Hitler.

[SteveDave]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trump-uk-visit-tube-strike-london-underground-piccadilly-line-rmt-union-a8417186.html

The US ambassador in London has said Mr Trump will not avoid visiting London despite the expected protests, saying demonstrations would not deter the "thick-skinned" president.

"He will definitely be coming to London," Woody Johnson said in an interview in April.

[Buelligan]

I mean that's basically the line people are being critical of isn't it? not that there in favour of Trump but they believe he's being built into some unique Hitleresque monster so dangerous that the focus on absolutely anything else is pointless, no time to point out hypocrisy with other unopposed visits, no time to comment on the reasons for his rise.

As Alberon rightly says, there is time for both.  And also time to refect on the possibility that if Trump is not a unique Hitleresque monster people may have wasted some time but what if he is?  Or as Alberon says, he'll usher in the one who is?  What if those arguing in favour of arguing and staying home are wrong?  How will that sit with resistance to the status quo? 

On balance, is it really better to stay home and tut?

[greenman]

As Alberon rightly says, there is time for both.  And also time to refect on the possibility that if Trump is not a unique Hitleresque monster people may have wasted some time but what if he is?  Or as Alberon says, he'll usher in the one who is?  What if those arguing in favour of arguing and staying home are wrong?  How will that sit with resistance to the status quo? 

On balance, is it really better to stay home and tut?

I'm not seeing calls for staying home from everyone being negative and equally I'm guessing a lot of those speaking in favour of it are not going to be doing the protesting themselves either. Ultimately a net forum is going to relate far more to the tuting or not part.

Many would say that the environment that birthed Trump which exists somewhat in this country as well giving us Brexit is actually much more dangerous than Trump himself and that the focus on him helps to obscure this.

[bushwick]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

Can we borrow that sonic machine off the Chinese that gives people headaches?

[Buelligan]

I'm not seeing calls for staying home from everyone being negative and equally I'm guessing a lot of those speaking in favour of it are not going to be doing the protesting themselves either. Ultimately a net forum is going to relate far more to the tuting or not part.

Many would say that the environment that birthed Trump is actually much more dangerous than Trump himself and that the focus on him helps to obscure this.

They might say it but it would be easier to sympathise with them if they gave examples - clear examples - of what they mean.  And it would be useful if they explained exactly what people should do to put things right.  IMO, this discussion is like someone suggesting that we abandon environmental controls on industry because the US is out of the Climate Change Thing.  Sounds all very indignant and careful now and the result is that those who don't care if they destroy the planet as long as they profit get an easier ride. 

Please explain to me what the positive aspect of doing nothing about Trump is.

I'm sorry, I can't address your first paragraph because I don't understand it.

[Twed]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgqM1L6EsUM

[greenman]

They might say it but it would be easier to sympathise with them if they gave examples - clear examples - of what they mean.  And it would be useful if they explained exactly what people should do to put things right.  IMO, this discussion is like someone suggesting that we abandon environmental controls on industry because the US is out of the Climate Change Thing.  Sounds all very indignant and careful now and the result is that those who don't care if they destroy the planet as long as they profit get an easier ride. 

Please explain to me what the positive aspect of doing nothing about Trump is.

I'm sorry, I can't address your first paragraph because I don't understand it.

Well I would say perhaps a greater realisation of a need for change from the pre Brexit/Trump status quo and/or greater awareness of their values potentially being manipulated to try and maintain that status quo. I feel that for example a lot more of the drive for this protest comes from the latter than was the case with say the Iraq war protests.

My point that was that many of those making such comments haven't said "stay home" and that the nature of this forum is obviously going to be about more indepth discussions about politics.

[Pdine]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMvqtuomaR8

[Buelligan]

Well I would say perhaps a greater realisation of a need for change from the pre Brexit/Trump status quo and/or greater awareness of their values potentially being manipulated to try and maintain that status quo. I feel that for example a lot more of the drive for this protest comes from the latter than was the case with say the Iraq war protests.

It would be great if you could be more specific about this.  All of it seems like an internal dialogue, which is fine, how does it translate into physical change, what actions are needed and from whom?  And is it possible to engage in those actions whilst opposing Trump - is there something about opposing Trump which, in your opinion, undermines change?

Edit to add:  Also, I'd like to understand what benefits are achieved by not opposing Trump.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

Won't it keep everyone else in the hotel awake as well, most of whom are probably totally decent people?

[greenman]

It would be great if you could be more specific about this.  All of it seems like an internal dialogue, which is fine, how does it translate into physical change, what actions are needed and from whom?  And is it possible to engage in those actions whilst opposing Trump - is there something about opposing Trump which, in your opinion, undermines change?

A physical change in how you vote? in potential other political involvement? on how you spend your money on what? maybe take part in other protests less favoured by much of the establishment as well?

[Buelligan]

Is it impossible to do those things whilst opposing Trump.  How does opposing Trump impact on those things?

Won't it keep everyone else in the hotel awake as well, most of whom are probably totally decent people?

Don't worry Fambo, it'll be block-booked by spooks, narcs and nazis, how do they sleep anyway?

[greenman]

Is it impossible to do those things whilst opposing Trump.  How does opposing Trump impact on those things?

No but I'd say it is possible to be limited from doing those things by over focus on Trump.

[Buelligan]

That's fine, it's a worry but is it a big enough worry to justify undermining people's desire to unite over this?  I really don't think it is. 

I really do feel that this careful now approach is exactly why empathetic decent people and their desires for a more egalitarian world order and being steadily pushed off the pavement.  Ground must be stood now, I'm not joking.

[Fabian Thomsett]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trump-uk-visit-tube-strike-london-underground-piccadilly-line-rmt-union-a8417186.html

Yeeeeaaaasss General Strike! One out all out!

[Fabian Thomsett]

Class War are planning an all night noise protest by his hotel. That's a good un I think, air horns, drums and music all night to keep the cunt awake.

All 12 of them?

[Isnt Anything]

July 13th. Assembling at 2pm outside the BBC building in Portland Place, marching to Trafalgar Square.

thank you