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March 28, 2024, 11:54:13 PM

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Greybum Muchtransanger - the continuing TERFery of Graham Linehan

Started by Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse, June 03, 2022, 10:47:21 PM

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Quote from: MojoJojo on June 16, 2022, 10:09:14 AMAnd it's really best handled by the managing bodies of those sports

That's my opinion too, I can't be bothered with all the pseudoscience on Mumsnet/Twitter etc as it feels like the same people who were experts on viruses and vaccines a year ago.

Barry Admin

I think one of the key things about the sports issue is the way it's represented by anti-trans activists like Linehan.

The more overtly transphobic people see it all as a ploy - as being more "evidence" of the inherent dodginess of trans women. They always, always represent it as being "mediocre men" who have transitioned purely to dominate sports.

This is the only real reason most men suddenly care about women's swimming, or women's sport in general. Eveyone hates cheaters, and men are particularly competitive because of testosterone, so the transphobic positioning really riles them up.

Whenever I ask them for their solution, they come up with really demeaning, unrealistic shit like "they should have their own category."

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: shoulders on June 16, 2022, 09:56:17 AMPersonally I think the public have that one correct.

In certain sports if you are a woman born with a man's body that does (assuming innate talent and application on the part of the athlete as a prerequisite) provide an unfair sporting advantage over a woman born in a woman's body.
But are we sure about that? What research has been done into the effect of feminising hormones on athletic performance? Is the research sound? Do we need to do more? Does the age at which you hormonally transitioned or how long you've been on hormones make a difference? I ask all these questions in good faith and I'm not ascribing any bad faith to you at all shoulders. Intuitively it seems like "trans women have an innate advantage because they were born men" is true, and I understand why people think that. But this isn't about intuition or political correctness, this is about science. I'm not confident that we've done enough science.

Alberon

The problem is there isn't two neat independent sections of male and female biologically speaking. There are plenty of messy overlaps and outright blurring of the lines between genders (the whole intersex issue for example).

There really isn't an absolutely clear definition of a woman or a man.

When it comes down to biology it isn't nearly as neat and tidy as most people like to pretend.

YouCantWriteTearsJimmy


Found this gem. Not as good as "never smile at an autogynephile" tho'

phantom_power

The governing bodies of each sport should be able to determine what might constitute a competitive advantage in any given sport. I am pretty sure they already have measures in place to minimise this, and from what I can tell in some cases they are pretty strict, enough to disqualify cis women based on things like testosterone levels.

Either way I am much more confident that the governing bodies would make an informed, impartial decision on such things than someone on Twitter with a dinosaur in their name and "pronouns fuck/off" in their bio

phantom_power

Quote from: YouCantWriteTearsJimmy on June 16, 2022, 10:52:39 AM

Found this gem. Not as good as "never smile at an autogynephile" tho'

Not a cult

Desolate bare room, GC t-shirt, bandana(?). Intro far too long

Cuellar

Quote from: Barry Admin on June 16, 2022, 10:28:59 AMWhenever I ask them for their solution, they come up with really demeaning, unrealistic shit like "they should have their own category."

I'm dipping in and out of this thread so it's probably come up but there was a cycling race specifically for trans/non-binary folks recently and even then the headlines were 'trans cyclists beat women'

Dr Rock

Trans women have been allowed to compete in women's sports for about 8 years. Where is this dreaded trans domination? Hasn't happened.

YouCantWriteTearsJimmy

Quote from: Cuellar on June 16, 2022, 10:57:53 AMI'm dipping in and out of this thread so it's probably come up but there was a cycling race specifically for trans/non-binary folks recently and even then the headlines were 'trans cyclists beat women'

It's not about finding solutions, because we already have that. A case by case investigation. Pistorius had a years long legal battle to race ... he has no legs! In the end he could race with non-disabled men. The weight lifter that said "no thank you" was investigated for testosterone misuse, and blamed it on PCOS treatment herself, PCOS itself causes hormonal changes that data shows "... Advantageous for physical performance". Nobody gives a shit. It's no use to try to reason with this, it's far more important to point out the theater around it and convince people they're being played for hate.

somersetchris

Quote from: Kankurette on June 16, 2022, 09:58:55 AMBut a tiny handful of trans athletes isn't ruining women's sport or putting girls off like TERFs claim it is.

In some US states where they have tried to ban trans athletes from girls' teams it has affected literally one kid. Not suggesting it doesn't matter, because that makes it sound like you're changing the law to single out one person. In one southern state that attempted ban trans athletes, the one kid affected was a girl who had started up the hockey team which she was then not allowed to play for - there would have been no hockey team without her.

It's hard to keep track of all these stories but from what I can tell so far, the state governors have been trying to introduce these laws and have been slapped down by the courts - but they will keep trying, across the states there are dozens of bills in progress attempting to restrict trans rights.

Of course, I am sure JK 'if you face any genuine discrimination because you are trans' Rowling will be at the forefront of any protests.

somersetchris

Quote from: Hope of Avalon on June 16, 2022, 09:26:22 AMI find it hard to believe that the Guardian posted this with a straight face.

Also surprised to see it in the Guardian, but it would have been nice to see the correct information presented where the public perception is wrong, such as 'people don't want children undergoing irreversible processes under the age of 18'. A simple 'THEY DON'T' would have been really helpful. This is where transphobic rhetoric has leaked through into the public consciousness and really needs to be corrected.

Jumblegraws

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 16, 2022, 10:41:00 AMBut are we sure about that? What research has been done into the effect of feminising hormones on athletic performance? Is the research sound? Do we need to do more? Does the age at which you hormonally transitioned or how long you've been on hormones make a difference? I ask all these questions in good faith and I'm not ascribing any bad faith to you at all shoulders. Intuitively it seems like "trans women have an innate advantage because they were born men" is true, and I understand why people think that. But this isn't about intuition or political correctness, this is about science. I'm not confident that we've done enough science.
Every paper I've read reviewing the available evidence is at pains to stress the dearth of targeted literature on the subject. Even the one that transphobes like to cite the most - the one that concludes that the guidelines used by the IOC overestimate muscle-mass loss in trans women - states unequivocally that a total ban of trans women from female categories would not be a proportionate response to their findings. And this is along with the usual caveats about the paucity of studies and the lack of controls for other factors contributing to ability in a given sport.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 16, 2022, 10:41:00 AMBut this isn't about intuition or political correctness, this is about science. I'm not confident that we've done enough science.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that there are so many outliers in either group that the idea of an average male or female sports performance index or whatever is less than useful.

Blumf

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 16, 2022, 10:41:00 AMBut are we sure about that? What research has been done into the effect of feminising hormones on athletic performance? Is the research sound? Do we need to do more? Does the age at which you hormonally transitioned or how long you've been on hormones make a difference?

Good a place as any to start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9YAFYIBOU (16 mins)

tl;dr - It's complicated, there's not enough research yet (partly because it's such a small phenomenon, so not much to sample), other biological differences can and do affect the results anyway.

shoulders

Quote from: Alberon on June 16, 2022, 10:43:53 AMThe problem is there isn't two neat independent sections of male and female biologically speaking. There are plenty of messy overlaps and outright blurring of the lines between genders (the whole intersex issue for example).

There really isn't an absolutely clear definition of a woman or a man.

When it comes down to biology it isn't nearly as neat and tidy as most people like to pretend.

Absolutely, and the same goes for physical development during puberty but age categories in sport still exist up to adulthood as there's a general agreement that such banding allows for a limit to promote fairer competition*

The essential messiness you outline is precisely why there's no elegant solution here.


*This isn't intended to be analogous, but it follows from reading the above post

Endicott

Quote from: Blumf on June 16, 2022, 11:52:48 AMGood a place as any to start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9YAFYIBOU (16 mins)

tl;dr - It's complicated, there's not enough research yet (partly because it's such a small phenomenon, so not much to sample), other biological differences can and do affect the results anyway.

I was about to post that. It raised a smile when she asks 'what's fair mean anyway?' and then shows a pic of the two women basketball teams, USA and El Salvadore, at timestamp about 10:45 .


jobotic

Where's that fucking cunt getting photos from people at Unison Conference from?


I was that at this by the way Graham, and I voted for this motion - along with every other delegate.

https://www.unison.org.uk/news/article/2022/06/unison-votes-unanimously-for-trans-equality-in-local-government/

I presume you want trade unions shut down now.

frajer

Great to see a man dishing out a "woman of the week" award. That's feminism, baby.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Better Midlands on June 16, 2022, 03:29:00 PM

I can't help but feel that this is an inappropriate meme slogan for a professional transphobe to use: 



Noticed earlier we've been missing @sophie.pilbeam and her posts of late, shame :-(

Quote from: Barry Admin on June 16, 2022, 03:40:18 PMNoticed earlier we've been missing @sophie.pilbeam and her posts of late, shame :-(

Yes, I hope she's well - hopefully just taking a break


jobotic

I find this really worrying. I don't know where that image has come from but a transphobic member has already challenged our Branch Secretary about the vote, including this picture.

Maybe that delegate is transphobic, but maybe she is a sharer and her partner has forgotten to give her the voting card, or maybe she doesn't feel she knows enough about the motion to vote. Maybe she's just sat down and missed the debate. It doesn't show her voting against.

Now the far-right are sending her picture around praising her and using her as a meme.

Quote from: jobotic on June 16, 2022, 03:33:57 PMWhere's that fucking cunt getting photos from people at Unison Conference from?



Note how it was edited to make it look like it was mainly men voting 'for'


Pimhole

Quote from: Better Midlands on June 16, 2022, 03:55:26 PM

Note how it was edited to make it look like it was mainly men voting 'for'



LOL that's just such a perfect analogy for the entire GC stratagem

retsuza

Quote from: Better Midlands on June 16, 2022, 03:50:44 PMYes, I hope she's well - hopefully just taking a break

Looks like she's still uploading lore and letsplay videos with her youtube partner. She had great posts but I don't blame anyone for wanting to take breaks from these threads especially if they're trans.


somersetchris

Quote from: Pimhole on June 16, 2022, 04:19:46 PMLOL that's just such a perfect analogy for the entire GC stratagem

It's like when they show the men's and gender neutral toilets and just crop out the women's to make it look like there aren't any.