The Dark Knight Rises

[Noodle Lizard]

The important things the Joker affected were Rachel's death and Dent becoming Two Face. Both of those events are mentioned in TDKR, which is all you need. The end result of his appearance carries through into the subsequent film, so the dramatic impact of the Joker on the story is maintained.

Well yeah, nobody's arguing that he'd somehow been edited out of the plot for TDKR - that plot was written deliberately excluding him.  But what you got was a disappointing end to the trilogy, wasn't it?

[Nuclear Optimism]

But what you got was a disappointing end to the trilogy, wasn't it?

I didn't think so. I enjoyed it. Your personal disappointment is not universal.

Could you give us an example of how you would have liked them to include the Joker? What sample dialogue would have sated you? Shorts of a clunky line that namedropped him for the sake of it, I don't see what they could do. They couldn't bring the Ledger back (obviously), recasting would be out of the question to a great many people, and digitally sticking him in somewhere would be shite, so a throwaway reference (like the novelisation) would have been the only remaining option. And I don't see what value that would bring. And neither do you seem to be able to explain it.

[Noodle Lizard]

I didn't think so. I enjoyed it. Your personal disappointment is not universal.

Could you give us an example of how you would have liked them to include the Joker? What sample dialogue would have sated you?

It'd involve writing a different script altogether rather than just adding one or two lines.  But I don't know.  If I did, maybe I could collect the same multi-million dollar paycheck that the Nolans cashed for such a lazy, poorly-written script.  But thaaaat's my life!

[Nuclear Optimism]

It's a bit rich to criticise them for a perceived failing that you can see no solution for anyway and that many other people don't even think was a problem.

[Noodle Lizard]

It's a bit rich to criticise them for a perceived failing that you can see no solution for anyway and that many other people don't even think was a problem.

Like I said, my solution would be to have a different script entirely, which I'm not going to write (for less than $10).  You could have yer Bane and yer Tate, but the Joker's imprint on the city would at least be referred to and have some kind of influence on the plot.  Fuck it, even within the original script, why not mention him in Gordon's speech where he explains the death of Harvey Dent?  It wouldn't be completely sufficient, but it'd be something at least.

Aside from that, I don't buy the whole "Well if you can't do it better, you can't criticise it" argument, else nobody would ever be able to criticise anything.  I've heard plenty of people saying it was a problem, and as I said earlier, anyone who didn't know the obvious reasoning behind the omission (Ledger snuffing it) might even go so far as to call it a plot hole, if not a confusing narrative error.

[Replies From View]

Fuck it, even within the original script, why not mention him in Gordon's speech where he explains the death of Harvey Dent?

Because they're maintaining that Batman killed Harvey Dent?

as I said earlier, anyone who didn't know the obvious reasoning behind the omission (Ledger snuffing it) might even go so far as to call it a plot hole, if not a confusing narrative error.

These sound like made-up stupid people, to me.

[Noodle Lizard]

But how would the Joker be referenced in this brand spanking new script, is the question.  The solution surely can't be that difficult to pinpoint since the omission is so glaring for you.

You could have yer Bane and yer Tate, but the Joker's imprint on the city would at least be referred to and have some kind of influence on the plot.  Fuck it, even within the original script, why not mention him in Gordon's speech where he explains the death of Harvey Dent?  It wouldn't be completely sufficient, but it'd be something at least.

It doesn't really bother me either way.  It was just one thing that struck me as a bit lazy or evasive among many, many more serious problems with that film.

[Custard]

Another possible reason not to mention The Joker is simply not to draw attention away from the Big Bad of the current film, Bane.

After they've spent nearly 3 hours building up Bane as this big scary threat, it could be counter-productive to suddenly mention and remind the audience of that previous threat who virtually everyone on earth was bound to prefer.

I get what you're saying Noodle Lizard, and I would've dearly loved for The Joker to have been involved in some way or other, an empty cell or a calling card or whatever, but everyone involved didn't want to do that out of respect for Ledger, and I don't think you can really argue with that.

Plus, as others have said, any mention of him could have come across really clunkily. Worse than the "Robin" bit, near the end, which is the only bit of the film I wouldn't mind losing.

[Tiny Poster]

Another possible reason not to mention The Joker is simply not to draw attention away from the Big Bad of the current film, Bane.

Yet they have The Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul turn up (as a ghost or summat). And The Scarecrow appears at the beginning of The Dark Knight. Schuh!

[Custard]

Yet they have The Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul turn up (as a ghost or summat). And The Scarecrow appears at the beginning of The Dark Knight. Schuh!

True, but The Joker dwarfs them all. THEM ALL!!!!1

I honestly think any kind of nod to Ledger's Joker would've made some, if not most think "oh yeah, him. He was much better. Who's this twat in the mask?"

(I loved Bane, and always will. But he's not quite The Joker, is he?)

[Replies From View]

There's a symmetry to a trilogy putting motifs from the first film into the third (see also the image of the circular well).

[Spiteface]

True, but The Joker dwarfs them all. THEM ALL!!!!1

I honestly think any kind of nod to Ledger's Joker would've made some, if not most think "oh yeah, him. He was much better. Who's this twat in the mask?"

(I loved Bane, and always will. But he's not quite The Joker, is he?)

To be honest, all the Joker fanboy/girling put me off that version of the character for a while.  I love Bane too, and all I was really hoping for upon finding out he was in TDKR was that he wasn't as shit as in Batman & Robin.

I do think theere could have beem a mention of him, but the consequences of what he did shaped the third film, so it's not like he was completely wiped from history or anything.

[Johnny Textface]

For any fans of (or people who can tolerate) Kevin Smith, his review is really great:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N4rHxbx4hU (basically just going through the film bit-by-bit from memory)

Is this from a podcast or something I can download? Good Bane impersonation.

[Noodle Lizard]

There's a symmetry to a trilogy putting motifs from the first film into the third (see also the image of the circular well).

Did anyone else hear a loud farting noise in their head when they read this?

[Noodle Lizard]

Is this from a podcast or something I can download? Good Bane impersonation.

Yeah, something like that.  It's hard to keep up with the amount of podcasts he does, but if there's a vaguely geeky movie out, chances are he's done a long podcast on it.

[Spiteface]

It's from SModcast, #218 - The Dark Knight Redux

It's actually the second part of a mammoth TDKR-fest that started on one of Smith's other podcasts Fat Man on Batman, where over the course of 2 podcasts, Smith spoils the entire movie for Scott Mosier who hadn't seen it.

Then there is also this one of FMOB, which Smith did with Ralph Garman which was much more critical:  http://smodcast.com/episodes/ralph-garman-the-diss-knight-returns/

[mjwilson]

I don't see how they could mention him without it seeming contrived.

This is a film which has a passing reference to Killer Croc, it's not worried about contrivance.

[Mister Six]

Re: Smodcast; Shurely 'The Snark Knight Returns'?

mjwilson - What was the reference to Killer Croc?

[Replies From View]

Did anyone else hear a loud farting noise in their head when they read this?

Why?  I like the shape of the trilogy as a whole.  You think it's an affront or plot-hole for the Joker not to have been name-checked, yet you can't appreciate the artistic decision to repeat motifs from an origin story in one that wraps things up?

[lipsink]

mjwilson - What was the reference to Killer Croc?

It's just one line when Blake first goes to visit Bruce Wayne. He says Gordon was injured in the sewers and the cops kept asking if he'd seen any alligators down there.

[Noodle Lizard]

It's just one line when Blake first goes to visit Bruce Wayne. He says Gordon was injured in the sewers and the cops kept asking if he'd seen any alligators down there.

Ahh, that should have been obvious.  I always thought it was a bit of a weird line.

[Noodle Lizard]

Why?  I like the shape of the trilogy as a whole.  You think it's an affront or plot-hole for the Joker not to have been name-checked, yet you can't appreciate the artistic decision to repeat motifs from an origin story in one that wraps things up?

No, this time I wasn't referring to the film.

[Mister Six]

It's just one line when Blake first goes to visit Bruce Wayne. He says Gordon was injured in the sewers and the cops kept asking if he'd seen any alligators down there.

Pfff, really? Anyone who thinks that's on a par with resurrecting - however briefly and through whatever proxy - Heath Ledger's celebrated and infamous character is deluded.

[Replies From View]

No, this time I wasn't referring to the film.

Just being an argumentative cock then.  No worries.

[Custard]

Nolan's next project (possibly)

http://sciencefiction.com/2013/01/13/christopher-nolan-in-talks-for-time-travel-film-interstellar/

[Dead kate moss]

The line is just referring to the 'alligators in the sewer' myth surely, not a really obscure reference to Killer Croc. For one thing, alligators aren't crocodiles.

[Noodle Lizard]

The line is just referring to the 'alligators in the sewer' myth surely, not a really obscure reference to Killer Croc. For one thing, alligators aren't crocodiles.

That's what I thought originally, but y'never know. 

[Johnny Textface]

It's from SModcast, #218 - The Dark Knight Redux

It's actually the second part of a mammoth TDKR-fest that started on one of Smith's other podcasts Fat Man on Batman, where over the course of 2 podcasts, Smith spoils the entire movie for Scott Mosier who hadn't seen it.


Then there is also this one of FMOB, which Smith did with Ralph Garman which was much more critical:  http://smodcast.com/episodes/ralph-garman-the-diss-knight-returns/

Thanks for the info!

[Replies From View]

The line is just referring to the 'alligators in the sewer' myth surely, not a really obscure reference to Killer Croc. For one thing, alligators aren't crocodiles.

I wonder if Catwoman saying "You gotta be kidding me" when Batman kicks a gun out of her hand counts as a Joker reference.

[Noodle Lizard]

It hasn't had many nominations, has it?  It's not up for anything at the Golden Globes tonight, don't know about Oscars.

'The Dark Knight' got quite a few, as I recall.