Wrestling Thread: the New Generation

[Ja'moke]

"There's no good wrestling in WWE"...

Ali & Mysterio and Joe & Almas just tore the house down.

[BeardFaceMan]

It really is very amusing to read peoples rationalisations for watching WWE. Like saying they still have good matches in amongst all the shit. If you watched 6 episodes of a sitcom for 3 hours and you were entertained by it for 30 minutes and thought the rest was shit, would you really be tuning in next week? And you still can't understand that by carrying on watching you are vaildating that shitness and letting it continue. Can I say again that WWE isn't aimed at wrestling fans in the same way The X Factor isnt for music fans? How the fuck can that be in dispute at this point? Vince doesnt give a fuck about you or what you want. As has been said, everything about the WWE is hot garbage apart from some matches now and again when they actually let the wrestlers work, how on earth anyone who says they enjoy wrestling can say they are looking forward to a WWE is beyond me.

[Ja'moke]

You just sound like an elitist knob.

That episode of Smackdown was genuinely good top to bottom with three high quality matches. And as I said previously, NXT last year was my favourite product going, from characters, storytelling and wrestling quality (Almas v Gargano being my match of the year).

Raw I can take or leave. Usually leave. With it being wrestling you don't have to watch a full show, like you would say a sitcom which has a running plot. If Raw has a highly rated match or segment, I will just check that bit out.

Same with other companies. I didn't fancy watching the entirety of WrestleKingdom, just checked out the matches I was interested in. Same with the recent Impact Homecoming show, heard great stuff about LAX v Lucha Bros, so I just checked that match out.

It's 2019, you can pick and choose what wrestling you want to watch. There are so many ways to watch and so many wrestling companies putting out content. All have highs and lows. Getting mad at people for enjoying WWE is just pathetic.

[Timothy]

Great SD this week. Great wrestling show.

Completely agree with J'Moke.

For AEW: Lets hope their actual show has better production values then the rally yesterday. Oof.

[BeardFaceMan]

You just sound like an elitist knob.

That episode of Smackdown was genuinely good top to bottom with three high quality matches. And as I said previously, NXT last year was my favourite product going, from characters, storytelling and wrestling quality (Almas v Gargano being my match of the year).

Raw I can take or leave. Usually leave. With it being wrestling you don't have to watch a full show, like you would say a sitcom which has a running plot. If Raw has a highly rated match or segment, I will just check that bit out.

Same with other companies. I didn't fancy watching the entirety of WrestleKingdom, just checked out the matches I was interested in. Same with the recent Impact Homecoming show, heard great stuff about LAX v Lucha Bros, so I just checked that match out.

It's 2019, you can pick and choose what wrestling you want to watch. There are so many ways to watch and so many wrestling companies putting out content. All have highs and lows. Getting mad at people for enjoying WWE is just pathetic.

And you just sound like the worst kind of mark. Rationalizing things away so you can keep selfishly watching, that's the pathetic part. That you know that the WWE is ruin by horrendous  people with awful pasts and presents and shitty business practices. All those guys and gals you love watching now and again (because who watches a whole TV show in 2019, amirite? Fucking hell. The fact you can't even sit through a full wrestling show should tell you that maybe WWE isn't for you) are suffering because of you, the shitty things they have to endure, the shitty matches, the shitty promos, the shitty storytelling, are all because marks like you can't bring yourself to turn the TV over. They dont have anywhere else viable to work because people like you keep telling them that the WWE is the place to be, when the one and only reason anyone could ever want to go there now is for the money, people are certainly not going there because the ideas they've been pitched are creatively satisfying. By endorsing Vince and his bullshit you're helping keep the monopoly going.

OK, time to explain like you're 5 why WWE isn't aimed at wrestling fans. Seems such a simple concept and I can't believe it has to be explained, but here we go. The X Factor has lot of music on the show. That show is not aimed at music fans but if you enjoy music theres still stuff in the program that you can enjoy. The X Factor is aimed at the Saturday night light entertainment audience, people are not tuning into that show the same way you would Top Of The Pops for example. They want the backstories and the sobbing and the voting and all the other bullshit. If the people who watched that show were music fans then the winners of the show wouldnt disappear into obscurity after their first album. Because the people dont care about the music, they care about the competition and who is going to win next, the actual music is secondary. That's why the albums are released at Xmas, because that's when people who aren't fans of music buy albums and singles. If you're a music fan, that show is not aimed at you, although there is going to be content in there that you can enjoy. But by watching that show, you're encouraging that kind of 'get famous quick' behavior where people are given the impression that thats what all pop music is like and making it hard for actual music makers to get their stuff out there because people want disposable, forgettable pop stars doing cover versions. And you get more and more of them in favour of actual music because people keep tuning in.

Do I really need to draw the parallels with WWE? Sorry, forgot who I was talking to, of course I do. OK, strap yourself in...

WWE has a lot of wrestling on their shows. WWE programs are not aimed at wrestling fans (lets keep it as Raw and Smackdown to keep things simple). If you like wrestling then there is stuff in the WWE that you can enjoy, but it is not aimed at you. The WWE are a multibillion dollar wannabe mainstream company, their target audinece is not wrestling fans, its non-wrestling fans. Thats how you grow a business, by converting new people. Vince already has the wrestling fans in his pocket, he doesnt need to appeal to you because youre going to tune in anyway (just look at the way you try and justify your cherry picking a shit tv show if you doubt that statement is true). He needs to appeal to the mainstream, to the families, to the kids, thats where the money is now. That's who the show is aimed at. WWE is not aimed at you but there is still content in there that you can enjoy, but by doing so you actually hurt things. You're endorsing their behaviour and business practices, you keep the monopoly going, you make it harder for people to work elsewhere, you're saying its OK to run shows in Saudi with the women and Sami Zayn being told to stay home, you're saying its OK to put Hulk Hogan back on tv and all the other bullshit they pull on a weekly basis. You agree that a lot of WWE programming is garbage and yet you still support it, thats the truly pathetic part. Or will you rationlise that as you supporting the wrestlers and not the company?

[Timothy]

Hope that at least the view is great on your high horse there.

Sjeez.

[BeardFaceMan]

Hope athat at least the view is great on your high horse there.

Sjeez.

It's got nothing to do with being on a high horse, just having my eyes open and realising something isnt for me and not making rubbish excuses so I can carry on doing it. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Thanks for your rebuttal.

[Timothy]

Oh no I understand that. And thats perfectly fine. What I dont understand is the constant need to tell others they should think the same as you do and act like your opinion is fact while it clearly isnt. Just let other people enjoy the great wrestling matches on WWE shows when they want to.

Smackdown was great.

[BeardFaceMan]

Yeah you should just allow them to use the death of one of the most beloved on screen personalities they've ever had as a way of getting Hulk Hogan back on TV, nothing wrong with that kind of behaviour at all as long as you get to watch a few good matches now and again. And I'm not telling you what to think, I'm just telling you what I think, same as you are.

[madhair60]

Fuck up you twat.

[Moribunderast]

Yeah you should just allow them to use the death of one of the most beloved on screen personalities they've ever had as a way of getting Hulk Hogan back on TV, nothing wrong with that kind of behaviour at all as long as you get to watch a few good matches now and again. And I'm not telling you what to think, I'm just telling you what I think, same as you are.

And Khan donated money to Trump and New Japan only treat women as sex objects and Impact don't pay their workers and AAA still let people smash each other in the head with chairs...

I agree wholeheartedly that Vince is a foul person running a fairly foul company but wrestling exists on the back of foul people. Unless you give up watching entirely you become a hypocrite. I hate the WWE product and mention so every now and then here but I try to do so without being sanctimonious because, really, there's no morally good wrestling to support.

[Timothy]

OK, time to explain like you're 5 why WWE isn't aimed at wrestling fans. Seems such a simple concept and I can't believe it has to be explained, but here we go. The X Factor has lot of music on the show. That show is not aimed at music fans but if you enjoy music theres still stuff in the program that you can enjoy. The X Factor is aimed at the Saturday night light entertainment audience, people are not tuning into that show the same way you would Top Of The Pops for example. They want the backstories and the sobbing and the voting and all the other bullshit. If the people who watched that show were music fans then the winners of the show wouldnt disappear into obscurity after their first album. Because the people dont care about the music, they care about the competition and who is going to win next, the actual music is secondary. That's why the albums are released at Xmas, because that's when people who aren't fans of music buy albums and singles. If you're a music fan, that show is not aimed at you, although there is going to be content in there that you can enjoy. But by watching that show, you're encouraging that kind of 'get famous quick' behavior where people are given the impression that thats what all pop music is like and making it hard for actual music makers to get their stuff out there because people want disposable, forgettable pop stars doing cover versions. And you get more and more of them in favour of actual music because people keep tuning in.

Do I really need to draw the parallels with WWE? Sorry, forgot who I was talking to, of course I do. OK, strap yourself in...

WWE has a lot of wrestling on their shows. WWE programs are not aimed at wrestling fans (lets keep it as Raw and Smackdown to keep things simple). If you like wrestling then there is stuff in the WWE that you can enjoy, but it is not aimed at you. The WWE are a multibillion dollar wannabe mainstream company, their target audinece is not wrestling fans, its non-wrestling fans. Thats how you grow a business, by converting new people. Vince already has the wrestling fans in his pocket, he doesnt need to appeal to you because youre going to tune in anyway (just look at the way you try and justify your cherry picking a shit tv show if you doubt that statement is true). He needs to appeal to the mainstream, to the families, to the kids, thats where the money is now. That's who the show is aimed at. WWE is not aimed at you but there is still content in there that you can enjoy, but by doing so you actually hurt things. You're endorsing their behaviour and business practices, you keep the monopoly going, you make it harder for people to work elsewhere, you're saying its OK to run shows in Saudi with the women and Sami Zayn being told to stay home, you're saying its OK to put Hulk Hogan back on tv and all the other bullshit they pull on a weekly basis. You agree that a lot of WWE programming is garbage and yet you still support it, thats the truly pathetic part. Or will you rationlise that as you supporting the wrestlers and not the company?

I think this comment is enough reason not to participate in this nonsense discussion anymore. You don't like it all, we like some of it (have I mentioned the brilliant Smackdown already?), you clearly think that real wrestling fans don't watch WWE, I think that's absolutely smarky bollocks, so let's just agree to disagree. I rather spend my time watching the main event of Smackdown (truly brilliant) for a second time.

[Utter Shit]

Fuck up you twat.

Yep. And that's despite me agreeing that the main product (not NXT obviously) is terrible.

[Ja'moke]

And you just sound like the worst kind of mark. Rationalizing things away so you can keep selfishly watching, that's the pathetic part. That you know that the WWE is ruin by horrendous  people with awful pasts and presents and shitty business practices. All those guys and gals you love watching now and again (because who watches a whole TV show in 2019, amirite? Fucking hell. The fact you can't even sit through a full wrestling show should tell you that maybe WWE isn't for you) are suffering because of you, the shitty things they have to endure, the shitty matches, the shitty promos, the shitty storytelling, are all because marks like you can't bring yourself to turn the TV over. They dont have anywhere else viable to work because people like you keep telling them that the WWE is the place to be, when the one and only reason anyone could ever want to go there now is for the money, people are certainly not going there because the ideas they've been pitched are creatively satisfying. By endorsing Vince and his bullshit you're helping keep the monopoly going.

OK, time to explain like you're 5 why WWE isn't aimed at wrestling fans. Seems such a simple concept and I can't believe it has to be explained, but here we go. The X Factor has lot of music on the show. That show is not aimed at music fans but if you enjoy music theres still stuff in the program that you can enjoy. The X Factor is aimed at the Saturday night light entertainment audience, people are not tuning into that show the same way you would Top Of The Pops for example. They want the backstories and the sobbing and the voting and all the other bullshit. If the people who watched that show were music fans then the winners of the show wouldnt disappear into obscurity after their first album. Because the people dont care about the music, they care about the competition and who is going to win next, the actual music is secondary. That's why the albums are released at Xmas, because that's when people who aren't fans of music buy albums and singles. If you're a music fan, that show is not aimed at you, although there is going to be content in there that you can enjoy. But by watching that show, you're encouraging that kind of 'get famous quick' behavior where people are given the impression that thats what all pop music is like and making it hard for actual music makers to get their stuff out there because people want disposable, forgettable pop stars doing cover versions. And you get more and more of them in favour of actual music because people keep tuning in.

Do I really need to draw the parallels with WWE? Sorry, forgot who I was talking to, of course I do. OK, strap yourself in...

WWE has a lot of wrestling on their shows. WWE programs are not aimed at wrestling fans (lets keep it as Raw and Smackdown to keep things simple). If you like wrestling then there is stuff in the WWE that you can enjoy, but it is not aimed at you. The WWE are a multibillion dollar wannabe mainstream company, their target audinece is not wrestling fans, its non-wrestling fans. Thats how you grow a business, by converting new people. Vince already has the wrestling fans in his pocket, he doesnt need to appeal to you because youre going to tune in anyway (just look at the way you try and justify your cherry picking a shit tv show if you doubt that statement is true). He needs to appeal to the mainstream, to the families, to the kids, thats where the money is now. That's who the show is aimed at. WWE is not aimed at you but there is still content in there that you can enjoy, but by doing so you actually hurt things. You're endorsing their behaviour and business practices, you keep the monopoly going, you make it harder for people to work elsewhere, you're saying its OK to run shows in Saudi with the women and Sami Zayn being told to stay home, you're saying its OK to put Hulk Hogan back on tv and all the other bullshit they pull on a weekly basis. You agree that a lot of WWE programming is garbage and yet you still support it, thats the truly pathetic part. Or will you rationlise that as you supporting the wrestlers and not the company?

Who hurt you?

You just sound like an angry and bitter person. It's not that serious my man. It's just wrestling. People are allowed to enjoy what they want to enjoy.

And you clearly don't read others posts. I said I cherry pick Raw, New Japan and TNA. I watch the full episodes of Smackdown, which I already stated, and I almost always enjoy SD. And I watch full episodes of NXT, which I stated was my favourite overall wrestling product last year, it nailed characters, storytelling, and match quality. No need for me to rationalise why I keep watching WWE. I keep watching because I enjoy a lot of the product. It sounds like you keep rationalising your hatred.

Yes, I know WWE has a shady past and present, but I listen to hip hop and The Beatles, my morals when it comes to entertainment are already out the window. Also, show me one squeaky clean wrestling company and I'll show you a hypocrite. I'm well aware I support WWE, I've been to multiple WrestleManias, and I'm going to NXT UK TakeOver on Saturday.

And, as I've also stated before, a big part of me watching WWE is a social thing. All of my closest friends watch it. We get together and watch the PPVs and have a laugh. We do a monthly PPV prediction league which is fun. We go see shows together when we can.

Lastly, you never say what "wrestling" you think people should be watching. For me, wrestling isn't just two competitors in the ring fighting. It is that, but it's also the over the top characters, the showmanship, the storylines, the twists and turns, etc.

[BeardFaceMan]

I think this comment is enough reason not to participate in this nonsense discussion anymore. You don't like it all, we like some of it (have I mentioned the brilliant Smackdown already?), you clearly think that real wrestling fans don't watch WWE, I think that's absolutely smarky bollocks, so let's just agree to disagree. I rather spend my time watching the main event of Smackdown (truly brilliant) for a second time.

Thats just the fanboy in you reacting. I never said real wrestling fans dont watch WWE, as I said, if you are a wrestling fan there is stuff in WWE for you to enjoy, its just not aimed at you, hence you liking only bits and pieces of it instead of most or all of it. Fucking hell, and people say I don't read posts. They are a mainstream company trying to attract non-wrestling fans as wrestling fans already watch, they dont need to appeal to you as you'll keep watching regardless and just watch  he bits that interest you (as you have been saying over and over). So is that really so outrageous a statement?

[BeardFaceMan]

Lastly, you never say what "wrestling" you think people should be watching. For me, wrestling isn't just two competitors in the ring fighting. It is that, but it's also the over the top characters, the showmanship, the storylines, the twists and turns, etc.

Anything other than watching WWE through laziness, basically. Of course theres more to wrestling than fighting or we'd all be watching MMA. And the fact you love all that stuff about wrestling makes it even more odd you're so into WWE when they regularly do so many of those things so badly. Actually, its probably because you watch the matches in isolation that you can enjoy them because their storylines hardly ever make sense on a week to week basis.

[Utter Shit]

You are chatting an awful amount of shit here BeardFaceMan.

[BeardFaceMan]

You are chatting an awful amount of shit here BeardFaceMan.

Such as? Would be better if we could have a discussion.

[Timothy]

Thats just the fanboy in you reacting. I never said real wrestling fans dont watch WWE, as I said, if you are a wrestling fan there is stuff in WWE for you to enjoy, its just not aimed at you, hence you liking only bits and pieces of it instead of most or all of it. They are a mainstream company trying to attract non-wrestling fans as wrestling fans already watch, they dont need to appeal to you as you'll keep watching regardless and just watch the bits that interest you (as you have been saying over and over). So is that really so outrageous a statement?

Yes. Because the WWE is aimed at both.

[BeardFaceMan]

And Khan donated money to Trump and New Japan only treat women as sex objects and Impact don't pay their workers and AAA still let people smash each other in the head with chairs...

I agree wholeheartedly that Vince is a foul person running a fairly foul company but wrestling exists on the back of foul people. Unless you give up watching entirely you become a hypocrite. I hate the WWE product and mention so every now and then here but I try to do so without being sanctimonious because, really, there's no morally good wrestling to support.

Oh nobody is perfect and part of what makes wrestling so interesting to me is that carny background. But WWE are the worst of the bunch by far. And the difference is that what they are doing now hurts wrestling. People think they are the standard and thats how wrestling should be so are disappointed when they dont get it elsewhere. Their monopoly makes it harder for people to earn a living performing wrestling. They sign wrestlers with no intention of using them just so other companies can't use them. That's why I think it's a bad idea continuing to support them, its bad for business overall. Hopefully AEW can do something about that.

[Timothy]

Hopefully AEW can do something about that.

Competition is always good. But AEW have to up their game if that rally from yesterday is something to go by. That was awful. You can have all the great wrestlers on the world on your roster, and the best bookers on your team, but if you have awful production it doesn't matter at all. See also: ROH.

[Delete Delete Delete]

Moving on from this conversation. How do we think WWE might book its way to a Rondy Vs Beck Mania Main Event. I think Ronda interferes again in Beckys title match costing her the title. Goes on to win the rumble as a late entrant. Then challengeing Ronda.

[Utter Shit]

Such as? Would be better if we could have a discussion.

I can't be bothered going in depth because you're clearly an arsehole, but long story short: thinking WWE is shit is fine, and an opinion I agree with. But it's just an opinion, and you're presenting it as fact in a really snidey, holier-than-thou way. You called someone selfish for watching WWE, for fuck's sake.

Even as someone who thinks it is rubbish and has been for a long time, there are plenty of things to like about WWE if you're a 'proper' wrestling fan, some of which cannot be offered by any other company. The production, the sheer scale, the crowd reactions to genuinely exciting moments are not something that can be replicated by any company other than NJPW, and if you're not au fait with NJPW then you won't quite get it to the same extent.

Short story even shorter: I broadly agree with you, and still think you're being a cunt about it.

[Timothy]

Moving on from this conversation. How do we think WWE might book its way to a Rondy Vs Beck Mania Main Event. I think Ronda interferes again in Beckys title match costing her the title. Goes on to win the rumble as a late entrant. Then challengeing Ronda.

I just hope it won't be Becky vs Ronda at Mania but Ronda VS Asuka. Would like to see Rousey win the Rumble and challenge Asuka for a Champion vs Champion match at Mania. Rather see Becky VS Bliss.

[BeardFaceMan]

Competition is always good. But AEW have to up their game if that rally from yesterday is something to go by. That was awful. You can have all the great wrestlers on the world on your roster, and the best bookers on your team, but if you have awful production it doesn't matter at all. See also: ROH.

Thats always been the problem when it comes to competition for the WWE, the production values rather than the in ring action. People are so used to seeing a slick, well-produced wrestling show that when a new company starts up and they dont get those production values then the content of the show doesnt really matter. ECW are the only company I can think of that really overcame that handicap, they couldnt compete on production values so didnt even try and went for something completely different instead. The difference this time is that it looks like AEW have a lot of money behind them so they may actually be able to make a competitive TV show, production wise

[Timothy]

Thats always been the problem when it comes to competition for the WWE, the production values rather than the in ring action. People are so used to seeing a slick, well-produced wrestling show that when a new company starts up and they dont get those production values then the content of the show doesnt really matter.

That's one way to look at it.

The other (and right way imo) is that WWE's production values and in ring action are great, and that it shows that it's possible to have a great looking wrestling shows on TV, where other companies don't step up their game and therefore lose viewers. It's 2019. I'm not gonna look at a great show on a shoddy stream or with bad camera angles.

It's also absolute nonsense to say that WWE's in ring action is bad. You can not like it, but you can't objectively call it bad.

[BeardFaceMan]

I can't be bothered going in depth because you're clearly an arsehole, but long story short: thinking WWE is shit is fine, and an opinion I agree with. But it's just an opinion, and you're presenting it as fact in a really snidey, holier-than-thou way. You called someone selfish for watching WWE, for fuck's sake.

Even as someone who thinks it is rubbish and has been for a long time, there are plenty of things to like about WWE if you're a 'proper' wrestling fan, some of which cannot be offered by any other company. The production, the sheer scale, the crowd reactions to genuinely exciting moments are not something that can be replicated by any company other than NJPW, and if you're not au fait with NJPW then you won't quite get it to the same extent.

Short story even shorter: I broadly agree with you, and still think you're being a cunt about it.

I'm presenting my opinion as fact? Hehe this is a forum mate, we are all presenting our opinions, you taking them as fact is a reflection on you, not me.

Well again, as I've said over and over, I've never said 'proper' wrestling fans dont watch WWE, theres stuff for you to enjoy in WWE if youre a wrestling fan. So the reason I'm being cunty about it is because people like you react to posts rather than reading them. Engage and reply and I'll do the same.

[BeardFaceMan]

That's one way to look at it.

The other (and right way imo) is that WWE's production values and in ring action are great, and that it shows that it's possible to have a great looking wrestling shows on TV, where other companies don't step up their game and therefore lose viewers. It's 2019. I'm not gonna look at a great show on a shoddy stream or with bad camera angles.

It's also absolute nonsense to say that WWE's in ring action is bad. You can not like it, but you can't objectively call it bad.

I've never said the in ring action is bad in WWE, it's the only good thing about their entire product. But its nowhere near as good as it should be and there are nowhere near as many great matches as there should be considering who they have on their roster. And thats because of everything that is bad about the company, the shitty booking, the crap promos, nonsensical storylines, crap camerawork, that kind of thing. I feel for the wrestlers, they are clearly capable of putting on better matches than they are instructed to, and they want to, but their hands are tied.

Yeah its possible to have a good looking wrestling show on tv but its very expensive, thats where WWE have the edge - cash. Now it looks like there might be someone who can compete with that bankroll.

So you wouldnt have been someone who watched ECW back in the day? You would have turned on the tv and said "this is 1996, I'm not watching this, wheres the pyro? Sure, you've got Malenko and Guerrero putting on a wrestling clinic but the lighting isn't very good is it?" Thats the difference for me, thats why I'd say old school ECW was a show aimed at wrestling fans and WWE is a show aimed at non-wrestling fans.

[Utter Shit]

I'm presenting my opinion as fact? Hehe this is a forum mate, we are all presenting our opinions, you taking them as fact is a reflection on you, not me.

Well again, as I've said over and over, I've never said 'proper' wrestling fans dont watch WWE, theres stuff for you to enjoy in WWE if youre a wrestling fan. So the reason I'm being cunty about it is because people like you react to posts rather than reading them. Engage and reply and I'll do the same.

Everyone is saying the same thing to you. Play the odds, it's likely you're in the wrong rather than everyone else.

[Timothy]

I've never said the in ring action is bad in WWE, it's the only good thing about their entire product. But its nowhere near as good as it should be and there are nowhere near as many great matches as there should be considering who they have on their roster. And thats because of everything that is bad about the company, the shitty booking, the crap promos, nonsensical storylines, crap camerawork, that kind of thing. I feel for the wrestlers, they are clearly capable of putting on better matches than they are instructed to, and they want to, but their hands are tied.

Yeah its possible to have a good looking wrestling show on tv but its very expensive, thats where WWE have the edge - cash. Now it looks like there might be someone who can compete with that bankroll.

So you wouldnt have been someone who watched ECW back in the day? You would have turned on the tv and said "this is 1996, I'm not watching this, wheres the pyro?"  Sure, you've got Malenko and Guerrero putting on a wrestling clinic but the lighting isn't very good is it?" Thats the difference for me, thats why I'd say old school ECW was a show aimed at wrestling fans and WWE is a show aimed at non-wrestling fans.

ECW's production values weren't as good as WWE's, but they were still good. There's even a huge difference between Lucha Underground (good) and ROH (bad).

Look at the AEW rally yesterday. They didn't mic the crowd properly. They announced Jericho and it fell flat. Why does it seem that the company isn't bothered to make it seem like the big deal it really is? How on earth can you contract Jericho and let that announcement fall flat? How on earth can you expect AEW to be succesful when they can't even get the announcement of a big star right?

In ring action is important, but the way you present that action is just as important.