Boomer infestation II: revenge of the wealth-snatchers

[jamiefairlie]

What if you can afford the meal but not the meal plus the tip? If you don't go then the restaurant lose out and the serving staff lose a little bit of job security.

[phantom_power]

What has gone unsaid is the sheer injustice that someone can earn far less in tips just by virtue of working in a less popular or cheaper/lower class establishment, sometimes even doing the same work.

Or if they are just not attractive, charismatic or polite enough to convince people to give them a bigger tip. Some might say those things are part of the job but that doesn't seem right

[Icehaven]

Tipping is a shitshow minefield, the expected percentage varies wildly, if it's a percentage of the bill then larger tables are always going to be prioritised, then if they're split evenly at the end of service that's not fair on either the good staff or the customers that wanted to tip them directly. Most payments are by card now as well so that's a whole new level of awkwardness and complication unless tips are automatically applied, which in turn is obviously going to upset customers who want to tip at their own discretion. You can't win, and there'll never be a national/global consensus so it'll always prompt embarrassment or confusion or argument whatever you do. Bring on the robot waiters.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Or if they are just not attractive, charismatic or polite enough to convince people to give them a bigger tip. Some might say those things are part of the job but that doesn't seem right

I went on holiday with a group and there was a girl (British) with us who said she only leaves tips for good looking waiters. Nothing to do with the quality of the service, literally just "here's some bonus money for having good bone structure". She also edits any group shots she posts on her social media to give pale people suntans so I wasn't entirely surprised.

[katzenjammer]

What if you can afford the meal but not the meal plus the tip? If you don't go then the restaurant lose out and the serving staff lose a little bit of job security.

Quite. Even though I might have enough to pay a 20% tip I'd feel like I'm being ripped off so wouldn't go to places where it was customary very often, if at all

[Ferris]

What if people can afford to eat out but not the tip some trousers?

Must their naked arses not be seen? Well that is prudish because now the restaurant and those waitstaff are missing out on paying customers. Hmm, curious.

Spoiler alert

(Point being: if you can afford 40 quid for some dinner, you can likely afford 45 quid. If you literally can't afford the extra fiver, then you couldn't afford the 40 quid in the first place and I'm surprised this needs saying.)

[close]

[Armed Traffic Warden]

I don't tip. I earn minimum wage. I'll be damned if I'm giving up half an hour to an hours worth of my labour to someone else for plonking some plates down. (somewhat flippant response.)
  It's not my job to make up for the multitude of societal injustices that exist. When I can, I contribute to strike funds, as well as attending various protest events. I don't feel comfortable maintaining an unjust status quo out of my own pocket. It is not a good use of my limited resources. I couldn't give a toss if someone tells me I'm being rude. If everyone stops tipping tomorrow, then the sector would have to reform its wages. What's that? Everyone's not going to partake in such collective action? Well then, I refer you back to my status quo comment.
  For what it's worth I haven't eaten out in years because I can barely afford it, so when I do, it's a special occasion; something tells me they won't come round to my workplace and tip me.
  I'm being disingenuous as my workplace doesn't allow staff to be tipped.
 

[Armed Traffic Warden]

(Point being: if you can afford 40 quid for some dinner, you can likely afford 45 quid. If you literally can't afford the extra fiver, then you couldn't afford the 40 quid in the first place and I'm surprised this needs saying.)

Every budget has a breaking point. I'm surprised this needs saying. Not everyone is going out to a restaurant regularly. For some, it's a special occasion and £5 can indeed be all the difference. If you genuinely think not, then I suggest you've never truly known ongoing financial hardship.
 " but you can afford trousers" It's a very tory thing to say. Think about it.

[El Unicornio, mang]

But I think the point is that in America you factor in the extra when you go out to dinner. When I lived there I would always keep in mind that the meal would be the price + 15-20%. Same with a drink. If I have $4 in my wallet I'm not going to buy a beer because it's actually $5 with the tip and I'm not comfortable not tipping the bartender because that's how the system is (even though I don't like it). Kind of like when you pick something off a shelf in a store, you know you're going to be paying extra at the till because of the tax they add so you have to factor it in (although in that case it's compulsory).

It doesn't matter in the UK/Europe because you don't need to tip.

[Ferris]

Every budget has a breaking point. I'm surprised this needs saying. Not everyone is going out to a restaurant regularly. For some, it's a special occasion and £5 can indeed be all the difference. If you genuinely think not, then I suggest you've never truly known ongoing financial hardship.

My point was you factor these things in, and yes a fiver could be the difference but in a country where you don't usually tip (the UK) that's fine, you don't need to pay the extra.

Where it's a custom to tip to help waitstaff keep their heads above water, then you should factor it in, just as you should factor in the bus fare to get to the restaurant, or the taxi home, or (and this was the ludicrous extension of the point) the cost of laundering and wearing trousers. You could take any one of those and say "ahh but by eating a succulent restaurant meal, does that mean I'm also forced to also do XYZ (which costs money beyond the menu price of the individual food item I'm buying)" to which I reckon yeah, you should absolutely take those costs into account before deciding if you can afford to do something because you might not be able to avoid the extra £££.

Nothing is literally just the cost of purchase, there are (almost?) always associated shoe leather costs involved, depending on context. I don't think factoring those in (or pointing out that they exist beyond literally the ticket price of the item) is some mad tory point but ok.

As for "not truly knowing financial hardship", without wanting to get into it: you are very wrong.

[Icehaven]

I watched that episode of Friends the other day when Rachel's dad takes her and Ross out for dinner then leaves a really stingy tip, and Ross is horrified. I spose in a culture where tipping is virtually mandatory leaving a mean amount is effectively registering your resentment at having to leave anything at all, but at least it's something. 

[katzenjammer]

In North America how come the expected tip percentage has gone up so much? A few years back it was 10% but is now what, 20% plus? It can't be inflation the meal price has gone up by that already.  Just greed?

[El Unicornio, mang]

I think the general rule of thumb has always been 15%. 20% if service is exceptional, 10% if service is shit. It is kind of a passive aggressive way to tell the server you didn't like how they did things, while also feeling not guilty about it because you gave them something. But I guess there is maybe this feeling that "well why didn't I get 20% when I've busted my ass and been really nice?" so it maybe became the norm and 25%+ became the new amount for great service.

[Paul Calf]

What if you can afford the meal but not the meal plus the tip? If you don't go then the restaurant lose out and the serving staff lose a little bit of job security.

The cost of the meal plus the tip is the cost of the meal.

[Paul Calf]

Tipping is a shitshow minefield, the expected percentage varies wildly, if it's a percentage of the bill then larger tables are always going to be prioritised, then if they're split evenly at the end of service that's not fair on either the good staff or the customers that wanted to tip them directly. Most payments are by card now as well so that's a whole new level of awkwardness and complication unless tips are automatically applied, which in turn is obviously going to upset customers who want to tip at their own discretion. You can't win, and there'll never be a national/global consensus so it'll always prompt embarrassment or confusion or argument whatever you do. Bring on the robot waiters.

In practice, large tables are never preferred because group bookings have trouble getting the cost of the meal together, let alone a tip. Waiting staff tend to try to avoid group bookings.

[Paul Calf]

Every budget has a breaking point. I'm surprised this needs saying. Not everyone is going out to a restaurant regularly. For some, it's a special occasion and £5 can indeed be all the difference. If you genuinely think not, then I suggest you've never truly known ongoing financial hardship.
 " but you can afford trousers" It's a very tory thing to say. Think about it.

Then go somewhere cheaper and factor in the tip before you start. Or get used to the taste and texture of pubes.

I can't afford to go to Ibiza Sublimotion. Doesn't mean I can start knocking off bits of the bill until it's in my price range.

[Proactive]

Can the people defending tipping at least acknowledge that it's a fucking awful system, even if we agree that it's only fair to do it in places like America where it's part of the system?

[Fambo Number Mive]

How much are you meant to tip if the meal is good in the UK? I remember going to a posh restaurant in Oxford and tipping 20%, the waiter looked alarmed and asked if the meal was ok. I thought 20% was ok to tip?

Tbh I almost never eat out.

[Gurke and Hare]

Can the people defending tipping at least acknowledge that it's a fucking awful system, even if we agree that it's only fair to do it in places like America where it's part of the system?

Yes, but the people not doing it have to stop pretending that them being tightarses is socialism.

[katzenjammer]

How much are you meant to tip if the meal is good in the UK? I remember going to a posh restaurant in Oxford and tipping 20%, the waiter looked alarmed and asked if the meal was ok. I thought 20% was ok to tip?

Tbh I almost never eat out.

That's the thing isn't it? US habits always creep over to the UK. >20% definitely did not used to be a standard UK tip.

[katzenjammer]

Yes, but the people not doing it have to stop pretending that them being tightarses is socialism.

That's good because literally nobody is doing that.

[Ferris]

Can the people defending tipping at least acknowledge that it's a fucking awful system, even if we agree that it's only fair to do it in places like America where it's part of the system?

Tipping is a fucking terrible system.

Beyond the weirdness and awkward interactions, in a lot of places (including my own province) it can be massively abused by managers and owners - for example, there is no requirement that tips here go to staff. They could just get chucked into the till, and from what I hear this happens a lot in places with people on work visas who don't know enough (or lack the empowerment) to do anything about it. States in the US (and provinces in Canada including Ontario, until recently) allowed owners to subsidize wages with tips - so if you worked 10 hours and got $150 in tips, you "made" $15 an hour and that's above minimum wage so now as the restaurant owner, I can legally pay you $0 out of the business' pocket. Kerr-ching!!

Now, I'm pretty careful about where I eat out whenever I get the chance so I make sure I only go to places that treat their workers well but its an absolute disaster of a concept and I would be delighted if it fucked off. That said, I have to live with it where I am, so I go along with it and try to deal with it as ethically as I can.

[jamiefairlie]

Tipping is like a performance bonus scheme  but paid by the customer rather than the employer. Fucking bizarre. It's only defended because it already exists, it'd be laughed out of town if it was proposed as a new system.

Imagine salesmen getting their bonuses paid directly by the customer.

[Proactive]

Tipping is a fucking terrible system.

Beyond the weirdness and awkward interactions, in a lot of places (including my own province) it can be massively abused by managers and owners - for example, there is no requirement that tips here go to staff. They could just get chucked into the till, and from what I hear this happens a lot in places with people on work visas who don't know enough (or lack the empowerment) to do anything about it. States in the US (and provinces in Canada including Ontario, until recently) allowed owners to subsidize wages with tips - so if you worked 10 hours and got $150 in tips, you "made" $15 an hour and that's above minimum wage so now as the restaurant owner, I can legally pay you $0 out of the business' pocket. Kerr-ching!!

Now, I'm pretty careful about where I eat out whenever I get the chance so I make sure I only go to places that treat their workers well but its an absolute disaster of a concept and I would be delighted if it fucked off. That said, I have to live with it where I am, so I go along with it and try to deal with it as ethically as I can.

I think it would be great if restaurants (in the UK at least, where I see tips as something you're lucky to get rather than it being strictly necessary) made their internal policy clear on the bill/website/wherever, so you know exactly how it gets distributed. Waiting is just one aspect of the dining experience and it'd be nice to know that everyone on that kind of pay scale working in the kitchen etc was getting a fair slice of the pie.

[jamiefairlie]

I think it would be great if restaurants (in the UK at least, where I see tips as something you're lucky to get rather than it being strictly necessary) made their internal policy clear on the bill/website/wherever, so you know exactly how it gets distributed. Waiting is just one aspect of the dining experience and it'd be nice to know that everyone on that kind of pay scale working in the kitchen etc was getting a fair slice of the pie.

But why is that our business? If I buy a car I don't know how that money is distributed amongst everyone that's contributed to it, why is buying food any different?

You buy a product in exchange for money. The price should include all the expenses already factored in.

[Proactive]

I agree entirely, but in leiu of that, this would be better, and if it became the norm to advertise your policy, maybe it would disincentivise bad behavior such as paying minimum wage using tip money etc.

[shoulders]

I guess. Some businesses used to show off about being Real Living Wage employers.*

*Yay, how downright decent of you to pay someone what has been calculated the bare minimum.

[Ferris]

I guess. Some businesses used to show off about being Real Living Wage employers.*

*Yay, how downright decent of you to pay someone what has been calculated the bare minimum.

Bars and restaurants do occasionally open in these parts trumpeting their "don't tip - we pay everyone $XYZ an hour/a living wage^TM so you don't have to!" and the businesses almost uniformly fold within 6 months.

People either try to tip anyway like the fucking idiots they are, or staff go somewhere else where they're paid loadsa money in untaxed tips and make a far better wedge than if they stayed in the $15 per hour no-tip saloon. It's bonkers, you just can't kill the social expectation of hefty tips once it is inculcated with Joe Public.

[jamiefairlie]

untaxed tips

That's the heart of it. If they had to pay tax on all their earnings then support for it would drop rapidly.