Has anyone here actually put a record out?

[Nik Drou]

Hiya!!

Basically, I've made myself some music that's more or less mixed and ready to go, so I'm now slowly working through the whole mastering/manufacturing/label design process.  That kind of leads me into this minefield of options, with no real instinct towards what's most suitable. 

Which is the best manufacturing company? How many should I press up? What the hell is a Disco Bag anyway? 

Has anyone gone though this malarky before?  Got any advice/anecdotes/general patter?

[drberbatov]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/1xmusic/distribution/vinylp01.shtml

[El Unicornio, mang]

I've put out four, all of them through cdbaby.net, which is a good one to go through because they also pass your music onto all the digital download places like iTunes and other independent online record stores. Plus you get 60% of the money from album sales, which is very good (considering that artists on labels get about 5% if they're lucky) and 90% on the digital stuff. I still get money trickling in from stuff I did four years ago, and as it's digital I'm not paying for anything like packaging.

I got all the labels and artwork printed up at Kinko's, which is cheap, then just had to cut them out and package them in CD cases that I bought. In future I'm going to do it via a professional CD making place though. Doing it yourself is a lot cheaper though, you just make as many as the site needs (usually 5 at a time)

[Nik Drou]

Cheers for all that, Unicornio, though I was really aiming more for vinyl with this one.  CDs will be easier and cheaper to send out as promos and freebies etc, but it feels like something I could possibly take care of myself to an extent.  It won't look quite as good, but I don't think it'll matter all that much.

CDBaby still looks like a good place to go to set up downloads, so I might go for that.

Thanks for the link berbatov, I'm checking it out now.

[Robot DeNiro]

I'm actually sending a CD off to get manufactured this week, and the place I'm using also does vinyl.  A friend recently used them for what I believe is termed a 'dubstep white label', and he was very pleased with the results.

Their website is here

I'm pretty much in the dark about this sort of thing too, but here are a few things to bear in mind:

- If you want to get your record in the shops, you will need a distributor.  This is the really hard part.  My CD will be distributed by a company called SRD, but I haven't had to set that up myself, as a friend already has a distribution deal with them, and I am using that.  Because of this, I have no idea how you would go about getting a distributor from scratch. 

- No one makes any money out of vinyl.  My friend's dubstep white label sold out (I think he did a few hundred) and he's pleased because he didn't lose too much money.  Years ago I sold a thousand 7 inches and made about a fiver.  So if you want to make a record, do it because it's the only viable format for your genre of music, or because its the first step of your plan for world domination, or because you just want to own your music on a black plastic disc, not because you want to make money.

- There's something about mechanical royalties and the MCPS which I don't fully understand, but I think the manufacturer might be able to advise you a bit about that.  The people I recommended above were very helpful when I asked them a load of dumb newbie questions about this sort of thing.

- With regards label design / artwork, you will probably need to supply this at a resolution of 300dpi and using CMYK colours (rather than RGB).  Again, I know nothing about this really, despite having done artwork for a few releases now.  The only thing I know for certain is that I bloody hate Photoshop.  (Actually, Photoshop probably isn't the best application to use, I should be using Illustrator, but I haven't got time to learn to hate another program.)

- I have no idea what a disco bag is.

[Mindbear]

I keep thinking about releasing a record, and then shy away because I literally know fuck all and failing would be a really bad thing to do on so many levels. Also, the band I want to release are based in america and they're really badly produced, annoyingly, so I'd have to pay for that too I imagine.

And you have to pay for promos. Thats a lot of money!

Btw, Robot De Niro...are you actually Casetteboy? The actual one? I have a friend who's a massive fan, which I thought would be nice to know!

[Robot DeNiro]

Well, there's two of us, so I'm one of the actual Cassetteboys.  And yes, it's always nice to meet a friend of a massive fan.

Paying for your own promos is certainly something to remember, and I guess one of the reasons why small scale vinyl releases will probably lose money.  Records cost a lot more to make than CDs, and probably retail for less.  By the time you've given away a load of stock to journalists, DJs, your mates and records shops, basically you don't stand a chance of making your money back.  Our distributor wanted 100 promo copies of our new release just to give to record shops (I think they said 15 was the absolute minimum, but that would of course have limited the potential sales) and we've given away another fifty or so to the press.  Our stuff doesn't stand a chance of getting played on the radio, but if we were trying to get airplay as well, that would have been another load.

All our promos were homemade CD-Rs, because we were still working on the album past the promo deadlines (generally 2 months ahead of the release date for press, 1 month ahead for the distributor to give to the shops).  So I've got another tip for you - it's no fun burning 100 discs, printing and cutting out artwork, putting stickers on the CDs and assembling the cases all in one day because you're always running late and you've nearly missed yet another bloody deadline.

[djtrees]

Me and a mate have put out a couple of records over the last 12 months, most recently this (EDITED). We got 300 pressed up which included full colour labels and a white disco bag (disco bag is simply the sleeve with a hole in both sides.) We then, well my mate, screen printed a load of vinyl mailers which we put the record into and used that as the cover. I think they look pretty cool...
Record Sleeve + Poster
Then we put in a double sided poster, as seen above and a CDR of the record as well. All this cost about 400-500 quids and we are booting them out from our site at £6.99 plus postage. However we are selling them cheaper at gigs, and sold them even cheaper at our European gigs.

If we sell them all we should make enough money back to be able to press something else up, and we have a few different ideas that we would like to sort out. The good thing about doing this is that it is pretty easy to do on a small scale, and most gigging bands should be able to flog 300 records. I think the fact that it is a split release helps as well, as the two bands can try and flog as many as they can. I think we've got maybe 200 left after it being "officially released" for about a month. The distribution of them is a different matter, as we have been told by a big distro company that they wouldn't be arsed about a release that only has 300 copies, as they need 100 odd to boot out as promos anyway.

Another thing that we have managed to get around is the recording process as both the bands on this release and the people on our compilation had their stuff recorded and ready to go. We are not like a real life grown up record label so we can't afford to put people in the studio, but then people we do stuff with usually have tons of shit lying around that they are more than willing to boot our way.

SPAM REMOVED - NO BUYING OR SELLING.

[Famous Mortimer]

I operated a record label back in the mid-late 90s, and although most of it was tapes, I did do a few 7" singles (one with 555 Records of Leeds, another on my own). I lost a fucking packet on them both, but it was fun so never mind.

EDITED - NO BUYING OR SELLING!

[NoSleep]

I should have guessed that Nik was mostly interested in the vinyl side. I think there's some threads where the subject of pressing vinyl has been raised on here beforehand, which included discussion about manufacturing. In the last 20 years standards have really dropped as the focus has moved away from vinyl. I know it's become a specialist market, but the quality control is no longer there as it was once. In the UK I believe the old EMI pressing plant still runs on the old school basis, and now known as Portal Sound (last time I checked!!).

[NoSleep]

Here's a couple of links on here that might help:

http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8037.msg249287#msg249287
http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5350.msg267528#msg267528

[The Region Legion]

If you want quality, look no further than:

http://www.recordindustry.com/

They do all the vinyl for a company called Tonefloat, most famous for all the Porcupine Tree vinyl rereleases, as well as stuff by Use Of Ashes, Fear Falls Burning, Anja Garbarek and others. Their vinyl pressing is absolutely top quality, based just outside of Amsterdam. Give em a bell and see how much they'd charge, I doubt you'll get better in the UK.

[vdbn]

I started a label three years ago and pressed up 100 ten inch eps. We didn't sort out any distribution. Fifty six of those eps are in two boxes, four feet away from where I am now. Get distribution.

FWIW, the people we pressed the vinyl with are called Curved Pressings and they were very good. We just hadn't thought about distribution. Get distribution.

[Nik Drou]

Wow, certainly a lot to think about there.  Thanks everyone, this is really going to suck, isn't it?

It seems the main reason vinyl is not more cost-effective is that too many need to be given away as promos.  Couldn't you just use CDs for promotion, or is that horrifically naive on my part?

On a side note, is anyone else pretty confused by the state of vinyl nowadays?  I keep hearing how it's dying out (I've seen plenty of independent record shops go), but majors still press the things for every other band and HMV generally still stock a few.  I keep thinking there must be some kind of resurgance down the line, people'll get tired of buying music on a format that can't possibly maintain value (The Enemy's debut is already down to 4 quid on CD, try getting the vinyl of it for that much........on second thought, don't) or have any real physical property.  Or maybe that's horrifically naive on my part.

With regards to distribution, I'm electing not to worry too much about that until I have the record in my hands.  Once they physically exist, I'm not as bothered about how long it takes to get them out there.  Besides, if no-one wants to distribute them, chances are that not many would want to buy the thing either.

[Mindbear]

I think promos are an essential thing if you want to get any press. I mean, I get constantly surprised at the kinds of bands stumping up the cash for EMI to do their promo distribution. No one pays for anything when it comes to giving your record exposure.

I still really want to do this, but it looks like a big headache...

[Nik Drou]

I'll let you know how it goes, Mindbear, but I say do it. 

Oh, of course I think promos are important.  I was just wondering if they really need it to be vinyl.  If i use CDs for promos it will literally save me hundreds of pounds.

[Mindbear]

Well, it depends what genre. Most clubs use CDJ 1000's don't they? I spose certain genres only use vinyl, but for me, if I get vinyl, it tends to sit there and never get taken out, because vinyl is too bloody heavy. Cd's are great for promos.

Be aware as well, promo distribution companies, like Wild, Cool Delta etc, they cost a fair amount too.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Another thing that we have managed to get around is the recording process as both the bands on this release and the people on our compilation had their stuff recorded and ready to go. We are not like a real life grown up record label so we can't afford to put people in the studio, but then people we do stuff with usually have tons of shit lying around that they are more than willing to boot our way.

I don't think studios are really necessary anymore, with all the great home recording kit out there. I spent two months recording an EP in a studio with session musicians and everyone (including myself) preferred the stuff I had knocked up on my laptop on my own in Acid Pro.

The only advantage I can think of is soundproofing, but there's nothing wrong with a bit of background noise. Too much noise reduction makes music sound really sterile and flat.

[NoSleep]

Well, it depends what genre. Most clubs use CDJ 1000's don't they?

Everyone I know is using Serato these days.

[NoSleep]

I don't think studios are really necessary anymore, with all the great home recording kit out there. I spent two months recording an EP in a studio with session musicians and everyone (including myself) preferred the stuff I had knocked up on my laptop on my own in Acid Pro.

The only advantage I can think of is soundproofing, but there's nothing wrong with a bit of background noise. Too much noise reduction makes music sound really sterile and flat.

I'm sure, with the right engineer (I mean me), better results would ensue in the studio. I would have mixed the Acid Pro stuff in the studio rather than attempt to redo stuff with session musicians. I don't know what the original material was, whether it included samples or whatever, but redoing stuff that sounds good already misses a point. A wise man once told me "the first idea: that's the one".

[An Actual Propeller]

I spend the majority of my spare time running a record label and we've had nine vinyls (mostly seven-inch), and four CDs under our belts so far, with a further three vinyls and one CD upcoming later this year.  Despite shifting the majority of our releases on 500/1000 copy runs, we're still about 4 or 5 grand down than what we started.  No complaining though, I've made a ton of friends and artistically it feels as though I'm doing something with my life.

One of the last albums we did, we pressed a thousand, and gave away about a hundred as promos, not using a promo firm, but putting the CDs in Jiffy Bags and posting them ourselves with a handwritten note.  Yes, it takes fucking ages.  We send them two to three months in advance for the press and radio.  About a quarter of them get looked at.  A few end up on ebay.

Getting distribution was a complete pain in the arse for us at first; no distributor would touch us as we had no "names" to sell releases, so we simply phoned loads of shops like Norman, Avalanche, Piccadilly, Rough Trade etc. and posted vinyls to them.  That in itself cost a small fortune.  Only two records have broke even, and one of them was a 13-copy run.  We eventually got distribution with Cargo just over two years ago.

So yeah, be prepared to lose a sizeable wedge of dosh.  Incredibly rewarding stuff all the same, though.

And its great to read a posting by half of Cassetteboy.  I caught cb support Squarepusher at Newcastle Academy a while back, and watching them hold up signs - one saying "Cassetteboy", the other saying "fuck off" - was a joy to witness.  Kudos, sir.  Much better than Squarepusher's slap bass jazz funk snoozefest.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I'm sure, with the right engineer (I mean me), better results would ensue in the studio. I would have mixed the Acid Pro stuff in the studio rather than attempt to redo stuff with session musicians. I don't know what the original material was, whether it included samples or whatever, but redoing stuff that sounds good already misses a point. A wise man once told me "the first idea: that's the one".

Well, you can always get better results. But endlessly polishing something, as you say, is pointless. If it sounds good, leave it as it is. Music from the 60s and before sounds thin and there's noise and the stereo panning is often dodgy and you get distortion on the high peaks, all "unacceptable" with todays recording standards but no-one complains about that stuff. As far as mixing in the studio, I've got enough mixing software such as Izotope Ozone to do it myself. I've been doing it for 12 years so I know how to get it right (Mind, I thought that 10 years ago and listening to that stuff is pretty painful!)

[rudi]

Yeah, I've put a few out.

My advice? Be on someone else's label; sometimes they even remember to pay you.

[NoSleep]

Music from the 60s and before sounds thin and there's noise and the stereo panning is often dodgy and you get distortion on the high peaks, all "unacceptable" with todays recording standards but no-one complains about that stuff.

The thinness was to compensate for the limitations of vinyl (up until the mid 70s), as the reissues of Hendrix's catalogue show: for the first time you were allowed to hear the final result as agreed to by Hendrix. For instance, the UFO effects featured in the opening of the Axis:Bold As Love album now circle the room instead of panning left and right due to excessive compression applied to the post-production master heard for years before the original master resurfaced (I suspect they were kept hidden by Eddie Kramer from the clutches of Alan Douglas during Douglas' tenure as executor of the Hendrix estate).
As far as dodgy stereo placement: well, early Sly & The Family Stone makes far better use of the extreme "panning" (I don't think they actually had pan pots on mixing desks then) compared to the poor stereo mixes of the first Beatles attempts. In actual fact some of those effects could be used quite effectively today. If you isolate certain instruments from one another by panning them extreme left & right you can hear them more clearly if they share frequencies. the only stuff that really benefits from a central placement are stuff that needs to be extra loud in the mix, or bass frequencies, where sharing the load means one or another speaker isn't being pushed too hard.
Regarding the distortion, it's difficult to separate where it is simply error and when it's employed as an effect: I love the blatant distortion on the vocals on many Motown tracks, or the huge blur that is a Phil Spector production.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

It's always nice to read someone's opinion if the they really know their stuff about the subject in question.

[Mindbear]

Everyone I know is using Serato these days.

What is Serato? Is it like Ableton or something else entirely?

[NoSleep]

What is Serato? Is it like Ableton or something else entirely?

http://www.serato.com/products/scratchlive/

If a club is equipped with Serato Scratch, then all you need to bring is a laptop loaded with your tunes. You can even use conventional decks to present your set, as Serato Scratch can synchronize your mp3/wav files to the real world via two vinyl records with a time code recorded on them. This has great uses in the studio, too, as you don't have to wear out your precious old vinyl, scratching with it. Equally, material you have just recorded can now immediately be used by a scratch DJ (you don't have to wait until a vinyl pressing before he can get going).

[Ginyard]

As far as mixing in the studio, I've got enough mixing software such as Izotope Ozone to do it myself.

That's a decent bit of software. I use Waves and UAD1 cards alongside other outboard gear but nothing ever beats handing over your mix to a highly experienced, decent engineer even if you're very good yourself simply because they can hear all the things you're missing; its another pair of ears. And when you're creating music you always have a blindside. The only time I ever do the whole thing from playing to mastering myself is when its for media projects like documentaries simply because budgets aren't as high as they used to be and often you have to hand stems over and these get remixed anyway.

[NoSleep]

That's a decent bit of software. I use Waves and UAD1 cards alongside other outboard gear but nothing ever beats handing over your mix to a highly experienced, decent engineer even if you're very good yourself simply because they can hear all the things you're missing; its another pair of ears. And when you're creating music you always have a blindside. The only time I ever do the whole thing from playing to mastering myself is when its for media projects like documentaries simply because budgets aren't as high as they used to be and often you have to hand stems over and these get remixed anyway.

I hate engineering my own stuff for this reason: it's one big distraction, all that technical stuff. I don't have the same problem when mixing for others: the technical stuff steps out of the foreground as my animal instincts become allowed to function, and I am able to draw some emotion out into the mix. Plus, the artist can go off and play some XBox or whatever and come and comment with fresh ears at a later stage.

[El Unicornio, mang]

That's a decent bit of software. I use Waves and UAD1 cards alongside other outboard gear but nothing ever beats handing over your mix to a highly experienced, decent engineer even if you're very good yourself simply because they can hear all the things you're missing; its another pair of ears. And when you're creating music you always have a blindside. The only time I ever do the whole thing from playing to mastering myself is when its for media projects like documentaries simply because budgets aren't as high as they used to be and often you have to hand stems over and these get remixed anyway.

Well, I probably would do that if I could afford to. It would have to be an engineer who's on the same wavelength though, otherwise you can end up with a diluted version of your music. I make music that I want to listen to myself. Never understood artists who say "I never listen to my own music". If it's not so good that you don't want to listen to it then why even bother? It's like never eating great meals you make.