Genesis

[Lumiere]

In my opinion, Genesis are one of the best bands ever. Literally, there's something for everyone in their back catalogue - from lengthy, mad, Pink Floydesque suites (Supper's Ready), crazy prog (almost anything from Selling England By The Pound), mellow art-rock (Duke) and thrilling arty pop (Invisible Touch). I'm a fan of Collins solo work as well, no matter how much of a fool I might look like for being one.

Your thoughts?

[the hum]

The general feeling is they deteriorated after Gabriel left.  I feel the rot more set in after Steve Hackett left - Trick of the Tail is marvellous.  There's a few good things on Duke and Abacab, everything after that I really can't be bothered with.  But like you say, something for everyone.  Genesis 70-76 and Genesis 77 onwards are pretty much two different bands.  As for Collins' solo work, um no, just no.  If I ever met him I think I'd have serious tempation to hit him, and tell him to shut his annoying face and get back behind the skins.

[Lumiere]

If I ever met him I think I'd have serious tempation to hit him, and tell him to shut his annoying face.

As would I. He forced my best friend's father off Warners.

[Lumiere]

There's a few good things on Duke and Abacab, everything after that I really can't be bothered with.

Their self titled record and Invisible Touch are well worth checking out if you like those records.

[lankinpark]

I feel the rot more set in after Steve Hackett left - Trick of the Tail is marvellous.  

I can't believe I registered just to talk about Genesis... Evenin' all.

I'd personally rate Trick more highly than a lot of the Gabriel stuff (Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme both have their share of filler, although their highlights are bloody high). As for the rot setting in, it was a gradual process. Trick obviously displays the loss of certain elements of the band's sound (imagine Gabriel singing Robbery, Assault and Battery), but manages to overcome that. Then Hackett is phased out and the only major instrument is Tony Banks's synth. Which makes it much more difficult to pull off an entire album of quality Genesis music.

Then Phil Collins starts writing songs, and we're fucked really.

Having said that, Abacab is a damn fine experimental synth-pop album, and it's not until We Can't Dance that a Genesis album is dominated by mediocrity.

N.

[imitationleather]

Heh. Hehehehehe. I'm out of the "NME-worshipping new bands only, thanks" group for sure now...

Well, Genesis have been a guilty pleasure of mine for a while now. There's never been a Genesis album that I've listened to and thought, "Oh gawd no! That's rank from start to finish!" But then again, I've never heard We Can't Dance.

I was first pointed in their direction by Suttonpubcrawl a few years ago (I gave him NewOrder, he gave me Genesis) and the first album I got, Selling England by the Pound, is still my favourite.

What does everyone think of their 1997 effort, Calling All Stations? Personally, I think it's a very nice LP that went back to their prog roots. See? It was Collins dragging them down all along! Apparently it's often derided in the Genesis community (something I have no dealings with whatsoever, because I don't have a beard), which shows what a bunch of jive suckers they are.

[lankinpark]

There's never been a Genesis album that I've listened to and thought, "Oh gawd no! That's rank from start to finish!" But then again, I've never heard We Can't Dance.

It's by far the worst Genesis album, and it's way too clogged with Collins songs, but even they're at the higher end of his spectrum. A couple of great songs, and the rest is midly diverting MOR balladry. I can listen to it without vomiting.

the first album I got, Selling England by the Pound, is still my favourite.

Mine too. Firth of Fifth is sheer bliss, if you ignore the lyrics.

What does everyone think of their 1997 effort, Calling All Stations?

It's okay. There are a couple of obvious wannabe singles on there (Congo, Small Talk), but interestingly they're the weakest moments and they're not all that weak. I don't miss Collins' songwriting at all. The proggier stuff is decent, if not exactly mindblowing. It would have been interesting to see them build on it.

There's a brilliant b-side from that era called Banjo Man. It's a jolly little song that really works with Ray Wilson's voice, and actually pisses all over most of the album tracks.

[imitationleather]

Hoh. So I can't delete that post in the morning anymore then!

I'd say that ...And Then There Were Three is by far the poorest album I've heard by them (and I've heard them all apart from that one about having difficulty about strutting your stuff on the dancefloor). Infact, I think I've only ever listened to it once. The next few albums, which are from the era that people always say is when they "went the way of the pear", are far better. Hell, I even like Genesis quite a lot.

Ah yes, Banjo Man. Suttonpubcrawl sent that to me a while ago and I remember enjoying it. I'll have to dig it out again...

I'm off to my home by the sea so I can be an illegal alien now.

[the hum]

What does everyone think of their 1997 effort, Calling All Stations? Personally, I think it's a very nice LP that went back to their prog roots. See? It was Collins dragging them down all along! Apparently it's often derided in the Genesis community (something I have no dealings with whatsoever, because I don't have a beard), which shows what a bunch of jive suckers they are.

Haven't got it, but from what I've heard from it it's a fairly inoffensive but somewhat dull record.  I too have never frequented Genesis forums but I think there was a strong feeling at least among some that, er whatever his name was...the bloke from Stiltskin, should've been given a longer chance with the band.  Banks and Rutherford apparently decided to call it a day following poor sales.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

I'd definitely argue with the idea that Gabriel leaving was where the rot set in. A Trick of the Tail is an excellent album and Wind and Wuthering is one of my favourites although not many people seem to share that opinion. I think it (Wind and Wuthering) combines proper prog era Genesis songs with a much more polished and practiced sound than they'd ever produced before. Things seem a lot tighter and less hit and miss.

I don't even think that Hackett leaving was what did for them. If we ignore And Then There Were Three which is turgid and dull apart from one or two interesting songs (and even they seem to be missing something), Duke, Abacab and Genesis are three really good albums. Duke and Abacab are both excellent, Duke being more prog-like while Abacab has some more minimalist, experimental electronic things on it (an interesting direction which they didn't really explore much after that album). Incidentally, I really like Whodunnit from Abacab, but most Genesis fans seem to hate it. Genesis (the album) is sliding more towards the simplistic pop end of things, and has some filler in it.

Invisible Touch is where the decline really begins. If you want to argue with this, just listen to In Too Deep and you'll see that you are WRONG. It's like it came off a Phil Collins solo album. We Can't Dance is so bad I've never managed to listen to it fully. Collins's singing is at its most bizarre and strangulated sounding on that, which leads me on to a new point.

Has anyone else noticed the bizarre, Victor Yushchenko's face like transformation in Phil Collins's voice? I don't know how to describe the difference, but if you compare some of the earlier songs he sings (first few albums with him as lead singer, For Absent Friends and that rubbish thing off Selling England by the Pound) to anything from Duke onwards (but especially Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance), there is a massive change for the worse.

[the hum]

Ray Wilson

Aye, that's the fella.  Wanted to call him Tony there, which would've been quite wrong.

[imitationleather]

Has anyone else noticed the bizarre, Victor Yushchenko's face like transformation in Phil Collins's voice?

Yes. It's like Brian Potter's voice in Phoenix Nights compared to Brian Potter's voice in Road to Nowhere. Sort of like he's forgotten what he's supposed to sound like and so is impersonating himself.

Offensive to the ears!

[lankinpark]

I'd say that ...And Then There Were Three is by far the poorest album I've heard by them

Oooh no. It's got some horribly weak songs, but there are some damn fine moments. Undertow? Burning Rope? Deep in the Motherlode? Follow You, Follow Me is one ot their better pop efforts.

It's better than Wind and Wuthering, anyway. Is there any excuse for putting All in a Mouse's Night and Afterglow on an album? I think not...

Hell, I even like Genesis quite a lot.

Heh. Mike Rutherford says the first side of that album is the best thing he ever recorded and I'm almost inclined to agree. The second side lets it down massively though. I hate Illegal Alien with irrational passion.

[Lumiere]

Selling England by the Pound, is still my favourite.

It's not my favourite Genesis LP, but it's probably the best to come out of the Gabriel years. Tight riffing, great drumming, speedy, seamless progression...sumptuous prog.

What does everyone think of their 1997 effort, Calling All Stations?

I picked it up for £2.99 in Selectadisc and have never looked back. Some bloody brilliant moments on there, yet it's almost universally hated. To be fair, there are some naff moments, but I like the sound - the 80s Genesis being sodomised by the earlier prog Genesis.

EDIT: I was going to post something about Calling All Stations in my originaly post, but I thought I would recieve a drubbing.

I think the panning CAS recieved was largely due to some of the poppier  numbers (Congo, while a fantastic tune, sounds a bit too like Duran Duran) and Genesis' insistence that CAS was an absolutely amazing album (their claims that their new, generic sounding new singer bettered Gabriel annoyed a fair few people, too). It was also, strangely, due to the lack of Collins.

[The Region Legion]

For me, the live album "Seconds Out" effectively ends my enjoyment of Genesis. Phil Collins, somehow, manages to make the Gabriel material his own in a way on it - certainly not as good, but at least an acceptable version. After that, I have no interest (despite owning all of them on CD.. I kept trying, but it was not meant to be).

[tony peanuts]

They're on Mark Radcliffe's Radio 2 show tonight I believe, talking up the best of album.

[Nearly Annually]

Imagine how much better the world would be if, say, a young Fish had wandered past when they were wondering what to do for a singer after Gabriel's departure.

I'm a fan of Collins solo work as well, no matter how much of a fool I might look like for being one.

[Ambient Sheep]

OMG how did I manage to miss this thread until now?

The general feeling is they deteriorated after Gabriel left.  I feel the rot more set in after Steve Hackett left - Trick of the Tail is marvellous.

I'd definitely argue with the idea that Gabriel leaving was where the rot set in. A Trick of the Tail is an excellent album and Wind and Wuthering is one of my favourites although not many people seem to share that opinion.

I do!  I too am in the "Fine until Hackett left" school - and I have a good mate who's a fellow fan who thinks so too.  I think the "rubbish-post-Gabriel" thing is one of them received opinion thingies that's actually bollocks.

"One for the Vine" and most of the B-side ("Blood on the Rooftops" onwards - "All in a Mouse's Night" is just "Robbery, Assault and Battery" revisited as far as I'm concerned) are wonderful.

"Trick of the Tail" is a great album too apart from the title track - however my opinion on that might be flawed as I first heard the album on a cassette copy as a teenager that a mate did for me and he left it off to fit it onto a C90.  When I finally heard it years later I was very disappointed.  Coincidence?  Maybe.

I'd say that ...And Then There Were Three is by far the poorest album I've heard by them

Oooh no. It's got some horribly weak songs, but there are some damn fine moments. Undertow? Burning Rope? Deep in the Motherlode? Follow You, Follow Me is one ot their better pop efforts.

Agreed, but...

It's better than Wind and Wuthering, anyway. Is there any excuse for putting All in a Mouse's Night and Afterglow on an album? I think not...

"All in a Mouse's Night" I can agree with, but "Afterglow"?!?  Wash your mouth out, sir!  If nothing else, it contains the resolution of The Genesis Chord(TM).  This is an in-joke between Gazeuse and I, apologies if you don't get it.

I have to admit I've never heard any of the other post-Hackett albums, but going from what taste-sharing mates have said, they're cack.  I do mean to investigate them one day, especially "Genesis" which is supposed not be not so bad.  I have to say I *did* love the single "Mama", and duly bought it at the time.

(I gave him NewOrder, he gave me Genesis)

Heh, I did much the same with a mate, a longgg time ago.

[the hum]

Imagine how much better the world would be if, say, a young Fish had wandered past when they were wondering what to do for a singer after Gabriel's departure.

Apparently Banks and Rutherford did consider him after Collins departed, but Fish himself wasn't interested.

[lankinpark]

"All in a Mouse's Night" I can agree with, but "Afterglow"?!?  Wash your mouth out, sir!

Bleh.

I listened to Wind and Wuthering earlier, just to check that I wasn't making my opinions up. Afterglow isn't all that bad, but it's kinda dull and sits uneasily with the rest of the album. Too simple. It just plods along in the vague direction of a crescendo, but then gives up before it gets there. And the fact that it comes after what would have been the perfect climax to the album (Unquiet Slumbers... pulling the Los Endos/Duke's End trick of revisiting tracks) makes it feel horribly tacked on.

I've heard people complain that Your Own Special Way kicked off the inevitable decline into mush, which seems like a very odd way to see things. YOSW is a decently crafted and very pretty song, whereas Afterglow is slow and simple, and led entirely by the vocals. Which is exactly what was wrong with later albums.

The rest of the album is better than I give it credit for, though. I like the fusion bits, and it's a shame that side of the band had to die (although it might have been hard to pull it off with a drum machine and no lead guitarist). Blood On The Rooftops is gorgeous, too. Essentially, it's only Tony Banks letting the side down (again - his two tracks were the weakest by far on Trick... as well).

[fbb bastard]

Imagine how much better the world would be if, say, a young Fish had wandered past when they were wondering what to do for a singer after Gabriel's departure.

Apparently Banks and Rutherford did consider him after Collins departed, but Fish himself wasn't interested.

didnt fish appear on one of their solo albums? i think it was banks effort. i seem to recall a video from it featuring d.w. dick messing around on a bike while banks played on in the background.

and for the record i have always considered "seconds out" to be the genesis album to beat all others with collins nowhere near as annoying as he would later get doing sterling work. a full bands muscle behind gabriel's ideas and imagination hit the motherlode (no pun intended) with the version of suppers ready on S.O.

[Ambient Sheep]

I've heard people complain that Your Own Special Way kicked off the inevitable decline into mush, which seems like a very odd way to see things. YOSW is a decently crafted and very pretty song...

Hmmm, I'm afraid I'd tend to agree with the other people - at least about the song itself.  (It probably didn't kick off the decline into mush, because Selling England has a similar track on it - I forget the title because on my old cassette copy my friend just labelled it "Phil Collins Crap", and although I now have the album on vinyl and CD it's not stuck in my head! - and that didn't cause a decline.)  Maybe it's because of an embarrassing event in my teens, but every time I hear YOSW I just have this urge to throw up into the nearest receptacle.

On the other hand, I disliked "Ripples" (off of Trick of the Tail) back then, and now I really rather like it.

Essentially, it's only Tony Banks letting the side down (again - his two tracks were the weakest by far on Trick... as well).

Which is why it all plummeted downwards after Hackett left... :-)

By the way, I find it interested that nobody's mentioned The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway yet.  Often toted as their magnum opus, I generally found it to be a complete pile of self-indulgent shit, with about three good songs on it.

[the hum]

didnt fish appear on one of their solo albums? i think it was banks effort. i seem to recall a video from it featuring d.w. dick messing around on a bike while banks played on in the background.

Indeed, can't remember the name of the album or the single, but the latter hit about no.68 in the charts or something.

and for the record i have always considered "seconds out" to be the genesis album to beat all others with collins nowhere near as annoying as he would later get doing sterling work. a full bands muscle behind gabriel's ideas and imagination hit the motherlode (no pun intended) with the version of suppers ready on S.O.

That was the album that got me switched onto them.  Borrowed my brother's vinyl copy about 5-6 years ago.  The version of The Cinema Show on there in particular is just superb.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

"Trick of the Tail" is a great album too apart from the title track - however my opinion on that might be flawed as I first heard the album on a cassette copy as a teenager that a mate did for me and he left it off to fit it onto a C90.  When I finally heard it years later I was very disappointed.  Coincidence?  Maybe.

This is the second time I've encountered someone saying that Trick of the Tail is a bad song. I don't understand this because I think it's really good. Hmm, I suppose there's not much I can really say other than that.

I have to admit I've never heard any of the other post-Hackett albums, but going from what taste-sharing mates have said, they're cack.  I do mean to investigate them one day, especially "Genesis" which is supposed not be not so bad.  I have to say I *did* love the single "Mama", and duly bought it at the time.

If you like And Then There Were Three, I'd imagine that you'd certainly like Duke. It seems to me that Duke is rather similar to And Then There Were Three, but a lot better made. The style of the songs and the sounds they use aren't all that different, but the actual quality of the songs and the way they play them is better on Duke.

I'd say that ...And Then There Were Three is by far the poorest album I've heard by them

Oooh no. It's got some horribly weak songs, but there are some damn fine moments. Undertow? Burning Rope? Deep in the Motherlode? Follow You, Follow Me is one ot their better pop efforts.

Deep in the Motherlode is admittedly a very good song, but Burning Rope? That's dreadful prog by numbers. It sounds like they thought "oh, we're supposed to be a prog band too, better put a prog extravaganza on here" and then followed a "make your own prog song" instruction list. Follow You Follow Me is alright but a bit dull. I do like Down and Out, but it's a sort of guilty enjoyment where I'm thinking "this isn't really a good song, is it?".

By the way, I find it interested that nobody's mentioned The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway yet.  Often toted as their magnum opus, I generally found it to be a complete pile of self-indulgent shit, with about three good songs on it.

I was going to mention it but you beat me to it! I've read that they themselves felt the material was a bit too stretched out and that they didn't really have enough to fill a double album. I think that between a third and a quarter of it might have been left out if it were made today. Some tracks were probably included because they had to fill two LPs, whereas today with the bigger capacity of CDs you wouldn't need to make it a double album if you dropped a few songs (and there are certainly a few songs that wouldn't be missed much if they were dropped!).

That said, I'm not sure what the relationship was between Peter Gabriel's rather bizarre story and the music. Was the story fitted to the music or was it the other way round? Did songs have to be included for the benefit of the story? I know that he wrote the story separately from the rest of the band, who wrote the music themselves without much (any?) input from Gabriel.

I personally think that the album has some good songs, but they're not up to the standard of good songs from other albums before or after, and there is lots of filler. The guitar is also a bit too quiet and ends up buried under the keyboard, which was apparently frustrating for Steve Hackett. So the high points aren't very high and there are lots of low points.

[Lumiere]

Duke.

Just listened to this one again. Bloody astonishing art-pop. Ambient Sheep, it's £4.99 in the HMV sale - you have NO excuse.

[lankinpark]

By the way, I find it interested that nobody's mentioned The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway yet.  Often toted as their magnum opus, I generally found it to be a complete pile of self-indulgent shit, with about three good songs on it.

I really like The Lamb, although not in a drooling progfan "It's a double album and I don't get it so it must be great" sense. I just think there are some great songs on it. The title track and The Carpet Crawlers steal the show, but there are a few understated beauties as well - Cuckoo Cocoon, Lilywhite Lilith, Anyway, The Lamia... Add a decent epic-ish track (In The Cage), some pretty instrumentals, something genuinely new (Back In NYC) and the synth riff from Riding The Scree, and that's an overall success, I'd say.

Okay, it's bloated, pretentious nonsense and the second disc is horribly padded (The Light Dies Down On Broadway, anyone?). Sure, you could lose a handful of songs without noticing. And no, I can't really defend The Waiting Room. I'd never pretend The Lamb was the masterpiece it was meant to be, but you could create a pretty solid hour-long album out of the mess.

Deep in the Motherlode is admittedly a very good song, but Burning Rope? That's dreadful prog by numbers. It sounds like they thought "oh, we're supposed to be a prog band too, better put a prog extravaganza on here" and then followed a "make your own prog song" instruction list. Follow You Follow Me is alright but a bit dull. I do like Down and Out, but it's a sort of guilty enjoyment where I'm thinking "this isn't really a good song, is it?".

I dunno. I like Burning Rope, but then I am deliberately overlooking Tony Banks's usual failings - bollocks lyrics and over-reliance on formula. I think it's a decent second-rate prog song, and an improvement over One For The Vine and Mad Man Moon. Plus, it comes straight after a song about a snowman, which can only help matters.

Down And Out... yeah, it's not quite all there, is it? One of those where they've obviously tried, but to make it work you'd have to unravel the whole thing and put it back together again differently. Nice lyrics though. It's always interesting when bands sell out and write songs to justify it - that's why The Missing Piece is my favourite Gentle Giant album.
[/quote]

[the hum]

Heh, must say this thread has re-awakened my interest a bit.  Just ordered Foxtrot from amazon.

[Silver SurferGhost]

I'll take the Walter Gabriel era over the Michelle Collins era any day, me. But then I'm a fool for my Rock Nutters. I do wonder if I'd have liked the later version more if I had any regard for PC as a human being though. Turn it on Again was the last new song of theirs I liked, unfortunately, and Seconds Out was where we parted company for me, too.

Funnily enough I was also going to mention Lamb until Sheepy dissed it (no, I see no irony in my phrasing there, carry on) but he's right as usual, it has only got about three great songs under it's bloated carcass (Carpet Crawlers, Cuckoo Cocoon and for my money, Back In NYC).

Nobody's mentioned their first live album yet, have they? Pad it out to gig length with some of the stuff off the Archive box set (most notably that loverly version of Supper's Ready) and you've got a right cracker there. Then there are those early 70s non-album tracks, the excellent Happy The Man and Twilight Alehouse. Shirley room could be found for those on Nursery Cryme and/or Foxtrot ? Anyway, early Genesis. Pomp and circumstance. They made me prog-bonkers.

So, here's my concerted effort to turn this into a list thread:

Favourite Albums
Nursery Cryme
Foxtrot
Selling England By The Pound (apart from the PC abomination as mentioned)
Genesis Live

A CDful of Favourite Songs
Watcher of the Skies
Happy The Man
Harold the Barrel
For Absent Friends
The Return of The Giant Hogweed
The Battle of Epping Forest
I Know What I Like
Seven Stones
The Carpet Crawlers
Supper's Ready
Harlequin
The Musical Box

[dust]

I'm a child of the 80s so my only real exposure to the band has been Genesis and Invisible Touch - I had both albums on one C90 tape and practically wore it out as I loved them so much.  I listen to them these days and kinda cringe though I still think the epics "Home By The Sea" and "Domino" are completely fab.

*awaits rotten fruit and veg to be thrown*

So, what older Gabriel stuff would people recommend to me as I'm obviously completely uneducated ;)

[Lumiere]

Selling England By The Pound.

It's considered by most to be the peak of the Gabriel era. Amazing instrumentation, great lyrics ("Me? I'm just a lawnmower. You can tell me by the way I walk."), and their most rounded album. Lots of fun.

Their other good Gabriel albums (Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Lamb Lies Down On Broadway) are excellent, but feature some filler. SEBTP is completely bereft of any filler.