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Morbius (Sony/Marvel vampire movie)

Started by Mister Six, January 13, 2020, 07:48:03 PM

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Mister Six

Oh! The talk of the PS4 game reminded me of Silver Sable, but I guess Spidey doesn't need two white-haired morally ambiguous love interests.

So I guess dig up Scorpion and Shocker again from Homecoming? Although neither of them seem like main villain material. Maybe they can reuse Rhino. He was barely in the Garfield flick, wasn't in No Way Home, and a more comics-traditional approach would differ enough from that daft robot suit that it would seem worth doing.

stonkers

Quote from: Mister Six on April 08, 2022, 07:37:20 PMNot counting No Way Home, the Doc Ocks, Venoms and Green Goblins have all been Sony Pictures (Maguire/Garfield/Hardy) or Sony Pictures Animation (Spiderverse). Marvel hasn't used any of them. But No Way Home might make it awkward to introduce them now, especially as it reinforced Dafoe and Molina as the definitive GG and Doc Ock.

That's what I mean, yeah they haven't done MCU versions but they've done those villains recently so you don't want to go back to the well again. On top of that they've done Electro and Lizard twice within a decade. Arguably Sandman's been done three times.

Reviled as it is I have a lot of nostalgic fondness for the Clone Saga, you could make something out of it but I don't see it as a 2-3 hour film.

The Culture Bunker

I remember a story in the 90s cartoon of Chameleon impersonating Peter Parker to commit some heinous crime, with Matt Murdock acting as the defending attorney but also Daredevil and Spider-Man (unaware of their alter-egos) working together to gather the evidence to clear Peter. Could imagine that being an angle after Charlie Cox appearing in 'No Way Home'.

Mister Six

Quote from: stonkers on April 08, 2022, 10:22:11 PMThat's what I mean, yeah they haven't done MCU versions but they've done those villains recently so you don't want to go back to the well again. On top of that they've done Electro and Lizard twice within a decade. Arguably Sandman's been done three times.

Are you counting No Way Home as the second and third appearances of Electro/Lizard and Sandman, respectively?

What was the other time Sandman was used?

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 08, 2022, 10:35:11 PMI remember a story in the 90s cartoon of Chameleon impersonating Peter Parker to commit some heinous crime, with Matt Murdock acting as the defending attorney but also Daredevil and Spider-Man (unaware of their alter-egos) working together to gather the evidence to clear Peter. Could imagine that being an angle after Charlie Cox appearing in 'No Way Home'.

Great two-parter also involving the Kingpin and his son the Princepin (HILARIOUS).

Spider-Man has never really enjoyed the great selection of short runs that someone like Batman has. It's much easier to recommend Batman books to a new reader than it is to say to someone that they have to basically read the first 38 issues of Amazing Spider-Man and then decide if they want to keep going or not.

You've got Kraven's Last Hunt, which is a classic and could work well if adapted into a film, but most of the memorable Spider-Man runs (such as the Clone Saga, No One Dies, The Other, Superior Spider-Man, even the 80s Roger Stern Hobgoblin stuff) depend on a level of familiarity with the character - it helps having the crazy, impulsive and emotional Green Goblin established to cast the devious calculating genius of the Hobgoblin against, or to understand the complex history of Spider-Man's and Doctor Octopus' relationship (and how his aunt fits in the middle) from Master Planner Saga through Web of Death right up to issue 700 for Superior Spider-Man to work.

Essentially, to get into Spider-Man, you kind of have to read EVERYTHING, but that doesn't lend itself well to cherry picking bits for films. The fact that the Lizard was chosen as the lead baddie when they tried to reset the franchise the first time is testament to that, and even then, they didn't go with one of the best Spider-Man stories (Shed) in which he eats his human son.

Superman has a similar problem, which is why the films struggled so bad for story - his origin story is one of the best, but the rest of the time he works best when he's constantly foiling Lex's schemes - he can't just be stopping Lex doing one thing one time per movie.

Coming back to these Sony films, Venom in particular, it's such a shame that they went ahead and made those films without Spider-Man in them. David Michelinie has always said he was motivated to create a memorable villain who only existed because Spider-Man did, rather than another character whose plots Spider-Man could intercept and spoil after they were already established criminals. Not having Spider-Man in those films, particularly the quite diminutive Tom Holland Spider-Man for Tom Hardy to terrorise, is their biggest problem.

Mister Six

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on April 08, 2022, 11:15:11 PMThey didn't go with one of the best Spider-Man stories (Shed) in which he eats his human son.

Ugh, I hate that kind of edgy stuff in my bright 'n' shiny capeshit. Spidey suits melodrama, but Grand Guignol paternal cannibalism is going too fucking far.

Magnum Valentino

It's a lot better than that, honestly. It's handled in such a way that makes it quite devastating. It's good (not bad). Don't forget that however chipper he in any given period, Spider-Man is primarily motivated by guilt, from Ben to Gwen with a minor player every few years to keep the scales right. There's plenty of quality Peter Parker Angst to be mined from him not being able to stop one of his friends from eating his kid.

I was trying to remember the name of that Spidey "Dark Knight Returns" rip-off, as I think that might be one of the worst comics I've ever read.

Oh, REIGN! That was it. Terrible, terrible stuff. That's the one where you find out Mary-Jane died of cancer from Peter's radioactive spider-jizz.

I'm amazed it was as late as 2006, as it just screams "edgy nineties dark reimagining"

madhair60

Quote from: Mister Six on April 09, 2022, 12:02:32 AMUgh, I hate that kind of edgy stuff in my bright 'n' shiny capeshit. Spidey suits melodrama, but Grand Guignol paternal cannibalism is going too fucking far.

It was an excellent story in a very underrated and creative era for ASM

Magnum Valentino

Yeah the period between the earliest section of Brand New Day (which is somewhat fairly criticised because it embodies the post-One More Day mandate so immediately) and the more celebrated Big Time soft reboot is excellent. There was a superb roster of writers working on a sort of rota and some really memorable singles and two parters between the bigger trade-destined stories.

stonkers

Quote from: Mister Six on April 08, 2022, 11:02:39 PMAre you counting No Way Home as the second and third appearances of Electro/Lizard and Sandman, respectively?

Yes.

QuoteWhat was the other time Sandman was used?

It doesn't really count but the elementals in Far From Home are meant to be versions of Cyclone, Hydro-man, Molten Man and Sandman.

Mister Six

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on April 09, 2022, 07:27:42 AMIt's a lot better than that, honestly. It's handled in such a way that makes it quite devastating. It's good (not bad). Don't forget that however chipper he in any given period, Spider-Man is primarily motivated by guilt, from Ben to Gwen with a minor player every few years to keep the scales right. There's plenty of quality Peter Parker Angst to be mined from him not being able to stop one of his friends from eating his kid.

Yeah, but there's "uncle shot by crook"/"girlfriend tossed from bridge by supervillain", and "Lizard eats his own kid". The latter just has a gross, almost sadistic edge that doesn't appeal to me at all, no matter how well characterised the familial child-devouring is.

Quote from: stonkers on April 09, 2022, 01:00:57 PMIt doesn't really count but the elementals in Far From Home are meant to be versions of Cyclone, Hydro-man, Molten Man and Sandman.

Ah, right. Blimey, were there that many of them? I remember fire bloke and water bloke, but not the others.

Green Goblin is definitely played out, with Dafoe, Franco and DeHaan's versions all having come far too recently, but I reckon we could stand another Doc Ock, if they found a reasonably decent take on the character and maybe left it a little bit... and Spidey 3 Venom was such a nonentity in such a busy film, they might be able to get away with their own version, since he'd presumably be a lot more villainous than Tom Hardy's comedy goo-pal.

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: Mister Six on April 09, 2022, 02:55:44 PMYeah, but there's "uncle shot by crook"/"girlfriend tossed from bridge by supervillain", and "Lizard eats his own kid".

What if he turned to the camera afterwards and rubbed his belly and went "MM-MMM"? Easier sell?

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I assume this is doing quite poorly at the box office. YouTube keeps spamming an advert for it, in which Jared Leto walks around, dressed like a ponce, while allegedly real people tell him how much they enjoyed the film.

Bad Ambassador

So far it's made $105m from a budget of $75m, so it's not exactly a bomb, but it won't turn a profit, particularly with the terrible reviews and word of mouth.

Catalogue Trousers

That's not even close to breaking even at the moment, which IIRC is generally considered to happen when a film makes back double its budget.

dissolute ocelot

Venom 2 made about $500m globally on a $105m budget, about $200m in the US, so despite being considerably better reviewed, it's hard to see it as a great success either. They obviously dropped the budget a bit for Morbius, but it's making porportionally even less. (Venom 1 did better, with $200m from China and $856m globally, but the newer films don't seem suitable for the Chinese morality police and haven't had Chinese releases.) How many more of these films can they make? I really don't understand why people even try to make films.

13 schoolyards

At a guess it seems like Sony is trying to create / cultivate a super-hero niche that's a clear step down in scale and budget from the Disney movies (which most of the time seem a step down from the cash thrown at the Warner / DC ones). One hero, one bad guy, minimal supporting cast, average SFX, 90 minute run time, doesn't have to make a billion dollars to turn a profit but it'd be nice if it did.

It'd probably be a good move if the movies were actually good.

Dr Rock

Hopefully one more sonyverse flop and they'll give up. How about 'The Spider-Slayer' but he's kind of a good guy and never encounters Spider-Man.

Spider-Man has one of the best rogues gallery but they're mostly the ones Lee and Ditko created which kept returning, and they've all been done now (except for Kraven). This presents a bit of a problem for MCU Spidey too.

Memorex MP3

Quote from: dissolute ocelot on April 09, 2022, 08:38:45 PMVenom 2 made about $500m globally on a $105m budget, about $200m in the US, so despite being considerably better reviewed, it's hard to see it as a great success either. They obviously dropped the budget a bit for Morbius, but it's making porportionally even less. (Venom 1 did better, with $200m from China and $856m globally, but the newer films don't seem suitable for the Chinese morality police and haven't had Chinese releases.) How many more of these films can they make? I really don't understand why people even try to make films.
Venom 2 done a fair bit better than Black Widow, Eternals and Shang Chi on close to half the budget of each then? I would imagine the 90 minute run times also represents a play to win over cinemas a bit, being able to fit in one extra screening a day presumably helps the concessions a lot.

Seriously doubt Sony are eyeing sums of over a billion for any of these. As far as big budget films go they're doing fine, Venom was a big success.

No clue who Kraven is, they've JC Chandor directing with a decent enough looking cast, but if it's a dud like Morbius they'll have torched their rather weak brand.

Dayraven

QuoteNo clue who Kraven is
Short version is he's a big game hunter who's decided Spider-Man counts as game.

dead-ced-dead

Sony have been very clever: peddle the B to D list comic characters, budget them around 75 (Morbius) to 100m (Venom), watch the money roll in.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Dayraven on April 10, 2022, 01:47:58 PMShort version is he's a big game hunter who's decided Spider-Man counts as game.

And has no super-powers, uses nets and normal hunting guns - unless Sony drastically change the character, it doesn't lend itself to the cgi they've relied on thus far to mimic the MCU.

Magnum Valentino

Give us the Enforcers - Ox, Montana and Fancy Dan - under the leadership of the fucking BIG MAN. I want nothing more from a Spider-Man film. I don't even care if Spider-Man is in it, if you give me all three Enforcers and the Big Man.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


Magnum Valentino

Kraven is the star of one of the best Spider-Man stories, Kraven's Last Hunt, in which he "kills" Spider-Man because he thinks he can do a better job than him. Problem with that is, on film, that you'd have no Spider-Man on screen for ages, and other characters should be asking "where's Spider-Man?"

madhair60

I want Mr Negative but he doesn't really lend himself to huge spectacle. Just a cool character imo.

I was surprised how much I liked No Way Home as I am tediously anti-MCU, but it turned me around on Tom Holland as Spidey and I hope future films will maintain its tone to some extent.

Not seeing Morbius, fuck that lol

dead-ced-dead

Quote from: madhair60 on April 11, 2022, 08:40:38 AMI want Mr Negative but he doesn't really lend himself to huge spectacle. Just a cool character imo.

I was surprised how much I liked No Way Home as I am tediously anti-MCU, but it turned me around on Tom Holland as Spidey and I hope future films will maintain its tone to some extent.

Not seeing Morbius, fuck that lol

Mr. Negative was one of the main baddies of the first Spider-Man game and he's really good in that.

dead-ced-dead

Morbius dropped an estimated 73% in the US and I imagine it had similar drops worldwide. Even on a modest 75m budget, this isn't turning a profit.

Dr Rock

How about The Spider-Man Revenge Squad?
Spot!
Grizzly!
Kangaroo II!
Gibbon!