Vinyl: Anyone here never been near it?

[Johnny Yesno]

Cheers NoSleep. I totally agree with your CD versus vinyl arguments, and the info on the sticking vinyl is interesting. I'd not heard about that before. However, one point I'm not sure I agree with is:

It's at the recording stage that you need to concern yourself with frequncies above human hearing. A good transfer of an entirely analog recording and mix to CD is superior in many ways to a recording made entirely in digital.

The way I see it is that if the process is digital all the way then the sound engineer will mix so that the DAT master (recording at 44.1kHz) will sound good. If the original sound sources are digital then this won't be difficult as they will fall within the limits of 44.1kHz digital recording anyway. If the sound sources are analogue then the engineer will use a "best fit" approach. The result is that the consumer gets a pretty accurate representation of how the music sounded in the studio. On the other hand, if an analogue recording is transferred to 44.1kHz digital there will always be some loss, resulting in a different product from the intended one.

So, in short, if we're stuck with 44.1kHz as the sampling rate then recordings should either be analogue all the way or digital all the way.

[NoSleep]

Where these frequencies that go beyond the limit of human hearing become important is when you're multitracking. When two frequencies play together (and that's only the simplest interaction) they create a third combination tone that is the same frequency as the difference between their own frequencies. So a 20Khz and 25Khz will produce a ghost 5Khz, and good musicians will actually recognize this in their music and 'play' to achieve these. Good quality analog recording equipment will register these higher frequencies up to between 30-40Khz. Unfortunately, digital recording (of analog sources, of course) filters all above 20Khz to counter 'aliasing', so the only way you could reproduce this interactive effect would be to make a live two-track recording of any ensemble of musicians where this effect is required. Hence my argument that an all-analog line through to the mastering will sound better transferred to CD than an all digital line.

Of course, if you make your music entirely with digital instruments this will be less important.

I remember reading an article about the Mamas And The Papas where they said they knew when they were really firing on all cylinders because 'Fred' would join in with them... the ghost frequencies actually created notes that gave the impression of an extra member in the group.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

My bedroom at my mum and dad's house is used as their vinyl store.  Whenever I stay round, the morning after I'm usually greeted with the sight of the Three Degrees starting at me.  Vinyl's just nicer I think.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

Much fun was made from switching the speeds around too.

Oh yeah, I managed to do that loads.  My parents have got an old Technics deck, but the 33/45 speed switch broke.  We managed to *repair* it by inserting a pin into the switch.  Then all it took was a load of random fiddling to get to the right speed.  Of course some times it slipped leading to Abba albums being played at 45 rpm, or more disturbingly, my "We all stand together" single being played at 33 rpm.

[Ambient Sheep]

I used to love playing the 12" mixes of Two Tribes at 33.  Gave them a really spooky quality, even if it did then sound a bit stupid when Holly started singing, but by then your head was in enough of a strange place to handle it.

The Wall at 45 was fun too.

Re, the techy debate, I think the fact that most digital studios now record at 24-bit 96kHz says it all, really.  That, and Philips admitting a few years that they got it wrong with the CD-spec, that they should have waited a year or two until the technology would have supported a better sample rate.

[Johnny Yesno]

When two frequencies play together (and that's only the simplest interaction) they create a third combination tone that is the same frequency as the difference between their own frequencies. So a 20Khz and 25Khz will produce a ghost 5Khz, and good musicians will actually recognize this in their music and 'play' to achieve these.

Fucking hell! That is interesting. In that case I take it all back. I thought the occaisional "fat" sound I was hearing during jamming sessions was due to acquiring good weed. I'm a drummer y'see...

I think the fact that most digital studios now record at 24-bit 96kHz says it all, really.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that myself. I could never see the point of recording at 96kHz if the final product was going to be at 44.1kHz. Hooray! I've learned something from an argument today!

That, and Philips admitting a few years that they got it wrong with the CD-spec, that they should have waited a year or two until the technology would have supported a better sample rate.

I missed that. That's really annoying because the whole vinyl landscape has been thrown out of whack for an inferior product.

[Garfield And Friends]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5277574.stm

Fogey Bob Dylan hates CDs, condones illegal digital downloads, oh and his new CD is coming out soon.

[phes]

I bought most of his records at charity shops/jumbles/car boots for under a pound each.

Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone

less whinge, more action, bob.

[Panbaams]

I used to love playing the 12" mixes of Two Tribes at 33.  Gave them a really spooky quality, even if it did then sound a bit stupid when Holly started singing, but by then your head was in enough of a strange place to handle it.

The Wall at 45 was fun too.

Depeche Mode's "Barrel Of A Gun" given the "Spaceman" treatment (a 33 played at 45) sounds good too.

I've got the "Spaceman" 12" at home somewhere, I'm sure you can play the remixes on it at either speed.

[sam and janet evening]

I bought most of his records at charity shops/jumbles/car boots for under a pound each.

Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone

less whinge, more action, bob.

But he says illegal downloads are ok, that's quite a progressive view for an aging rock star I'd've thought (although, I disagree with him).
Plus he's been fairly consistent in his 'fogey-ish' views on music down the years. He may have been the first person on earth to say that Sgt Pepper wasn't much cop (I disagree with him there too), he's rarely name dropped faddish modern bands, and most of his records bear no trace of any post-1965 influences (save for the 80's ones but I think he disowned them even as he was making them).
I don't mean to come across as an uncritical apologist of the man, He says some utter twaddle at times, I just think that these remarks (which I haven't yet read in context) are hardly untypical.
And Modern Times is coming out on Vinyl too.

[chand]

But he says illegal downloads are ok, that's quite a progressive view for an aging rock star I'd've thought (although, I disagree with him).

It's alright for people who can make money out of hawking lingerie I guess.