God "permits" Hitchens cancer

[Artemis]

NT stuff...The John bit isn't literal, people aren't wood, it's talking about moral decay, peer led temptation. The other one is Moses.

Sadly for your argument, the bible, both bits of it, are full of examples of 'God' being a huge cunt towards anyone who he's decided (sometimes apparently on a whim) has warranted his wrath, anger or jealousy. There's not really any explaining your way out of that, you'll just need to accommodate it and accept that if God is now 'love', at worst he doesn't understand the concept, and at best he's inconsistent.

EDIT: Apologies, I've said 'you', there. I meant Christians really. I've not idea if you are one or not.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Good job, rudi - you saved me the bother of doing that myself.

Why not use the Torah (oh, rudi has, a bit) and the Qu'ran if you're not busy?

As for "good job", shouldn't there be a credit attached, or did rudi search those out himself?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The only consistent thing about God's actions and logic in the Bible is their likeness to the behaviour and thought processes of an oppressed minority group.

For a supposedly all-powerful being he doesn't seem to have much of a temperament.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Let's be thankful no nuclear state bases its domestic or foreign policy on Old Testement tubthumping.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Let's be thankful no nuclear state bases its domestic or foreign policy on Old Testement tubthumping.

WHAT ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS JEWS

OH MY GOD BY INCREDIBLE TURN OF COINCIDENCE THAT IS WHAT YOU MEANT


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Artemis - I'm not a master theologian but I can't recall many, if any, NT instances that fit your description.

[Nik Drou]

Artemis - I'm not a master theologian but I can't recall many, if any, NT instances that fit your description.

Acts 5: 1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira are killed by God for the heinous crime of not giving absolutely all of their money to the church.

[jutl]

Acts 5: 1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira are killed by God for the heinous crime of not giving absolutely all of their money to the church.

Strictly speaking it was because they lied, not because they didn't share.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

That's alright then.

I hardly think we need to rely on quoting of the New Testament to prove that Christianity is morally reprehensible. What matters is what their followers are taught to believe by the custodians and indoctrinators of that text and what the consequences of their resulting beliefs are on wider society. Given what we know about it's historical application in Europe, and it's application in modern Africa and the United States, it would be perverse to draw any other conclusion that it's a damaging, useless vestigious mess that degrades humanity on a number of levels.

[jutl]

You're likely to get lynched saying inflammatory stuff like that around here...

[thepuffpastryhangman]

That's alright then.

I hardly think we need to rely on quoting of the New Testament to prove that Christianity is morally reprehensible. What matters is what their followers are taught to believe by the custodians and indoctrinators of that text and what the consequences of their resulting beliefs are on wider society. Given what we know about it's historical application in Europe, and it's application in modern Africa and the United States, it would be perverse to draw any other conclusion that it's a damaging, useless vestigious mess that degrades humanity on a number of levels.

Wot no Middle East?

Yup, enshrining such daft ideas as not killing, nicking, fucking her mate's missus and treating folks as you'd like to be treated has definitely been the downfall of civilisation.

[Jemble Fred]

Yup, enshrining such daft ideas as not killing, nicking, fucking her mate's missus and treating folks as you'd like to be treated has definitely been the downfall of civilisation.

Nice to hear you showing such approval for a Jewish performer with the ultimate in unfair preferential family connections.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yup, enshrining such daft ideas as not killing, nicking, fucking her mate's missus and treating folks as you'd like to be treated has definitely been the downfall of civilisation

Communities themselves created a communal morality by necessity, in order to function properly. This pre-dates Christianity. All Christianity did was appropriate and produce bastardised versions of existing morals and code of laws into their own collective, and act like arbiters; as if they invented it.

That you appear to have been suckered in by this millenia old con-trick doesn't say very much about your critical thinking skills.

[sick as a pike]

perverse to draw any other conclusion that [Christianity is] a damaging, useless vestigious mess that degrades humanity on a number of levels.

Well, I bought two quite interesting gardening books for 50p from a nice man in St Mary's, Elham, and had a brief chat about Arvo Pärt.  What do you think of that?!

[thepuffpastryhangman]

S?-S! - In football terms it's like blaming the game for evils committed by Murdoch.

'Ahh, but without football Sky couldn't have flexed its muscles so convincingly' type thing.

JF - You say "preferential" but if He'd gone with Avalon it wouldn't have taken him 1 976 years to get His show on ITV.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

S?-S! - In football terms it's like blaming the game for evils committed by Murdoch.

'Ahh, but without football Sky couldn't have flexed its muscles so convincingly' type thing

Sorry mate, some issues aren't by default analagous with football, and I think this might, possibly, be one of them.

Fact: Morality predated Christianity

Deal with that or Shut the CaB up.

Well, I bought two quite interesting gardening books for 50p from a nice man in St Mary's, Elham, and had a brief chat about Arvo Pärt.  What do you think of that?!

TRAITOR

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Sorry mate, some issues aren't by default analagous with football,

Lookin' at it now, yeah, it does seem like a fair comparison.

Fact: Morality predated Christianity

Why would you (even) say that if you didn't believe there was a strong link?

Deal with that or Shut the CaB up.

No eggs and chickens here. Would "enhanced" be too positive an each-way term?

[Nik Drou]

Strictly speaking it was because they lied, not because they didn't share.

Yeah, I know, but thought it wasn't really worth splitting hairs about.

Anyway, in regards to this 'debate', any school of thought that encourages charity and goodwill etc is fine by me, even if its ideas are not wholly original.  Unfortunately, with Christianity, as well as other (particularly the Abrahamic) faiths, you also get a whole slew of cultural and theological baggage that poisons diplomacy, entrenches bigotry, devalues rationality and generally provides a big pain to the arse of progress.  I'm also overly glad that people are capable of compartmentalising their frankly sociopathic beliefs, to the point they can shake hands and make pleasantries with those they feel deserve to burn forever. 

I think we're past the point where organised religions can be seen as a credible force for good overall.  Not to deny their many charitable works and organisations, as well as the comfort they can provide to the minds of the disenfranchised.   It simply claims too much from its followers in terms of intellectual autonomy, particularly considering so many of their ideas and positions are self-evidently false.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Strictly speaking it was because they lied, not because they didn't share.

Thanks, that as so quick I missed it earlier. I was gonna look it up. I could look it up anyway, get a bigger picture, but I've got enough information to suit what I was implying now, so why go further?

Yeah, thanks.

[Artemis]

The point remains however, doesn't it.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Yeah, I know, but thought it wasn't really worth splitting hairs about.

Bloomin' non-sharer.

[The Masked Unit]

It always seemed to me that God either doesn't exist, or is a complete cunt hole. Couldn't really give a monkey's which.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I get my moral guidance from Star Trek.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

The point remains however, doesn't it.

It's no more harsh than a really benevolent gangster might be.

There should be a movie with the NT favourites as organised criminals.

Yeah, the point about vengeful remains, I did say "if". I don't know that bit, when it's set etc.

And that's the thing about religion, you don't have to do the bits you don't like.

[rudi]

NT stuff...The John bit isn't literal, people aren't wood, it's talking about moral decay, peer led temptation. The other one is Moses.

Both quoting yer man Jebus, though. He's God last time I checked with a christian.

Why not use the Torah (oh, rudi has, a bit) and the Qu'ran if you're not busy?

No need, it was all there. Don't go starting a separate argument just because you're shown to be wrong in this one.

*looks up*

Oh, I see you have. There's a shock.

As for "good job", shouldn't there be a credit attached, or did rudi search those out himself?

Bit of both. I have two Bibles and a handy Guide to... in my eyeline so I used those and the wonders of the internet for cut n pasting purposes.

[Artemis]

Both quoting yer man Jebus, though. He's God last time I checked with a christian.

I've found it depends on the context. If it's more convenient to get around the fact that God appeared to regret being a cunt when he came down to Earth on that suicide mission, then Jeezis becomes The Son, who came to let people know that his daddy is going to be nice from now on (undermined a bit later on when he makes some pretty nasty comments about people who don't agree with him). However, sometimes Jesus becomes God, when it comes to him judging everyone at the end and all that nonsense.

For every snag there's a loophole.

[rudi]

For a supposedly all-powerful being he doesn't seem to have much of a temperament.

Absolutely. How can an omniscient being become angry? "I gave you the chance (that I knew you wouldn't take) to bloody do as I asked!"

It's almost like there's no fucking logic.

I've been thinking; this guy:

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/environment/profile_rt_rev_ian_cundy_a_fascinating_life_1_130863

seemed like a stand-up guy, doing the Lord's work n shit. A Bishop, no less.

So, I wonder why God "allowed" him to get, and die of, a rare form of lung cancer? This God chap seems a bit of a cunt to me. I think I'll withdraw my offer of worshipping him for no discernable benefit, thanks.

[rudi]

I've found it depends on the context. If it's more convenient to get around the fact that God appeared to regret being a cunt when he came down to Earth on that suicide mission, then Jeezis becomes The Son, who came to let people know that his daddy is going to be nice from now on (undermined a bit later on when he makes some pretty nasty comments about people who don't agree with him). However, sometimes Jesus becomes God, when it comes to him judging everyone at the end and all that nonsense.

Ah sorry, I should have said katlick rather than christian: my lot are fairly firm he's god 24/7.

[rudi]

Well, I bought two quite interesting gardening books for 50p from a nice man in St Mary's, Elham, and had a brief chat about Arvo Pärt.  What do you think of that?!

I think I don't know who the hell Arvo Part is, but I like his vaguely saucy name. Ha! Take that, organised religion!

[rudi]

And now I DO know who he is and I'm about to go and listen to some of his work. I found out on the INTERNET and that's SCIENCE.

I make that 2 - 0 to the GOOD guys, yeah!