To christen or not to christen

[mini goatbix]

Congratulations, I would also like to say fuck em none of their business, but I know that some people can be persistently annoying and make life difficult. A friend of mine is in a similar situation, although her relatives are genuinely religious and won't listen to her atheist protestations. She's going to say she believes in baptism, not christening (this is the terminology I was taught, but it may vary depending on religion) which means she can wait ten years or so and anyone who tries to tell her that's wrong is messing with her beliefs. That still involves giving into intimidation because she has to lie in order to be left alone, but for people who can't cope with atheist logic, it means an easier life.

[alan nagsworth]

Say it right and they'll respect your views if they're worth worrying about.

Say it wrong and...

[The Masked Unit]

Tell them that you've found religion and have had a change of heart. Leave it at that for a day or two and then say "Oh did we not mention, we've found Allah and will be going through the relevant Islamic ceremony". At this point they will have no other choice but to go "Ah, we see what you've done there; what you're saying is that you may as well hold a satanic ritual while you're at it because to you, all religious beliefs are irrelevant to you because you don't believe in a higher power. You've made me think about why it is I believe in one version of events over another based on nothing more than place of birth, and in fact I see that it's all a bit silly and renounce my beliefs."

Nothing like a nice bit of simple logic to make a Christian see sense.

[JPA]

I dont think your situation is in any way unusual. My brother is a card-carrying atheist (big fan of Dawkins) and even he got bullied into getting his kid Christened.

Didn't Dawkins say he wasn't against church-based ceremonies (such as Weddings, Funerals etc) even if you aren't a believer? Or did I imagine that?

Anyway, I'd say don't do it. It isn't for the extended family to dictate what you want for your child and they shouldn't be trying to pressure you or bully you into anything.

So another vote for telling them to cunt off here.

[Cerys]

When we took Bethan up to meet SNG's family, her great-grandmother pushed and pushed and pushed for us to have her christened.  Our response was 'no', pointing out that we aren't Christians and we also aren't hypocrites.  I told her that when Bethan is old enough to choose for herself, then if she wants to become a Christian (or whatever other religion she might decide) then she'll have my full support; but that we weren't prepared to have her hauled into a religion that we don't follow and that she's too young to understand.

[Chutney]

t isn't for the extended family to dictate what you want for your child and they shouldn't be trying to pressure you or bully you into anything.

And it sets a precedent - no matter how well meaning, the extended family does have a tendency to stick its oar in when it comes to how you raise the kid.  Don't buckle at the first thing.

[Ronnie the Raincoat]

That's my argument exactly. I think people are just pissed off they don't get to have a big day out next year. Well fuck 'em, me and the baby will stay in and get pissed on our own.

Why don't you just have a big party to celebrate their arrival?  If they really missed the christening stuff, just chuck a couple of water balloons at it and shout, "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU", sorted.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Will baby be refusing Christmas presents and Easter eggs?

[Cerys]

Christmas presents and Easter eggs have sod all to do with Christianity, expecially since both festivals were subsumed into the Grand Commercial Year-long Buy Stuff Fest.

[Goldentony]

Will the child refuse the Lethal Weapon box set?

[thepuffpastryhangman]

Easter has nothing to do with Christianity? Wha?
Wouldn't 'the least hypocritical approach be to let baby decide for itself, when it's old enough, whether or not it wants to indulge in chocolate symbols celebrating Christ's resurrection?

[Lfbarfe]

Not necessarily. Some religious people hold these sort of secular events in even more contempt than no christening at all.

Indeed, but Viero said that his and his girlfriend's rellies aren't terribly religious, just traditional. Y'know, people who tend to go to church 3 times in their lives: hatching, matching and despatching.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

First floor

hatching, matching and dispatching,

going up.

Reminds me of the Are You Being Served? theme song.

[falafel]

Easter has nothing to do with Christianity? Wha?
Wouldn't 'the least hypocritical approach be to let baby decide for itself, when it's old enough, whether or not it wants to indulge in chocolate symbols celebrating Christ's resurrection?

Because everyone knows Jesus was buried with a rabbit.

[SOTS]

There's absolutely no way you should go through with this. It's not just the faff and bullshit of the christening but also the irritating pressure afterwards. My friend's younger brother was christened at a local church and her family now have to deal with the bloke from the church turning up on the doorstep asking why they haven't been attending. It's just not worth it.

My parents never christened me and i'm pleased they didn't. The family can fuck off. You're the parents and it's your decision!

[Gradual Decline]

Easter has nothing to do with Christianity? Wha?

Egg-based ceremonies pre-date Christianity, y'know.

[sproggy]

Wait until the sprog is old enough to make the decision itself.

It's totally hypocritical to get the kid christened if you're not Christians, so leave it and cite that as the reason.

[Viero_Berlotti]

Will baby be refusing Christmas presents and Easter eggs?

No, of course as an atheist I have absolutely no 'moral compass', so I'll justify christmas presents and easter eggs by saying it's what Grandma would have wanted.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

I'm sure a lot of people's Christmas and Easter have no religious dimension whatsoever. They're an excuse to get together and eat too much and be jolly and generous. May as well happen then, when everyone else is at it. And of course both have their roots in pre-Christian events. I'm not exactly on side with the people who canonized Saint Valentine, but I'll bung my boyfriend a card and a poem on February 14th without feeling like a hypocrite. I don't think a religious Christening - specifically a welcoming into the Church - is comparable to any of the above. Unlike a Christening, they can all breeze happily past without religion rearing its head at all.

[Johnny Yesno]

Congratulations Viero. I'd say definitely don't cave in. I agree with the idea of stating to your family that you are neither a Christian nor a hypocrite. If it helps any, ever since I became aware of the concept I have been unwaveringly pleased that I was never christened.

[Tiny Poster]

I'm sure a lot of people's Christmas and Easter have no religious dimension whatsoever. They're an excuse to get together and eat too much and be jolly and generous. May as well happen then, when everyone else is at it.

Which is why many Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims etc participate in Christmas celebrations - it's seen as cultural, not religious.

[Serge]

In my own family, my parents have had neither me nor my two brothers christened - and this was quite something back in 1968 in the case of my eldest brother and it did cause quite a bit of upset between my parents and some relatives.

Same here, neither my brother or I were christened, though I think the only people my parents got any flak off were 'friends' of the family rather than relatives. I don't think any of my family are religious, certainly none that I can think of.

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

Oddly enough, although my parents are devout christians and the rest of the family are pretty traditional, I can't imagine any of them being put out by me not having a child christened (in the unlikely event I have children, anyway). There's definite advantages to being the "weird one" in your family. Plus, since they view christenings as an important religious sacrament and are not retards, I think they would get the point behind unbelieving parents wishing to avoid them

[The Boston Crab]

I imagine if it were your own family doing the pushing, you'd feel more comfortable telling them - quite rightly - to cunt the fuck off but it's always tricky stepping across the great divide.

I can't help but be quite irritated on your behalf at these interfering do-no-gooders, given that my girlfriend's family feel very liberated in 'advising' us how to live our lives at every step. It got to the point where I wilfully 'forgot' my Mandarin to 'solve' the problem and now we're living in the UK, out of reach. Half-kidding there, I did upset her mother on several occasions when I went back a few months ago - and in the long run, it's helped. She's learned much better how to maintain distance and to 'help' when invited to do so. I suggest upsetting your girlfriend's selfish family to uphold your principles. You'll only set a precedent otherwise.

[mook]

agree to get the nipper's head wet, but state that to attend you require a payment of say £200 to be payed in to a trust fund for the child which they can spend however they see fit when they reach 11 years old - see how many of the fuckers, pay up and turn up. or just do what you believe to be right.

[The Boston Crab]

Also, I love mook's idea.

[Cerys]

Seconded.

[Icehaven]

I was christened as a baby. The priest that christened me was killed when his water boiler exploded and blew his house up a few months later. I am a hardline, Dawkins-grade Atheist. Anyway, to the family members pushing for it, suggest either; a)having a nice gathering/party type event instead, which is probably all they really want, that'll probably shut them up. If it doesn't, then plan b) tell them you're considering having not a Christian Christening but the equivalent ceremony for Hinduism, Islam, Judaism or Sikhism (or any other religion that has one) If they question it, just tell them it's as relevant to your beliefs (or lack of) as a Christian christening would be, so you thought you'd do something a bit different. That'll probably be the last you'll hear about it.

[Viero_Berlotti]

I suggest upsetting your girlfriend's selfish family to uphold your principles. You'll only set a precedent otherwise.

I think that's the only way really. I've rocked the boat before so I'll only be enhancing my reputation further, and if I'm truthful I quite like being the awkward one.

Thanks to all for the advice and congratulations. It's ages away yet anyway so I've got time to get all the arguments straight in my head for when the issue inevitably comes up again next year. 

[Saucer51]

A lot of Christenings in this country nowadays appear to be some kind of social gathering rather than a religious rite. I'm sure we all know many people who arrange elaborate christenings for their children but appear not to hold Christian values themselves. I don't mean that they are evil, just not really observant of Christs's teachings, rightly or wrongly.

I'm sure this stands for all other major religions. It's sometimes just a box to tick at census time. I suppose the "best" thing in the sense of fairness is to forego the baptism and allow the child access to religion if and when they choose. School will expose them to it to some extent, even if you don't. As for concerned extended family members, remind them that there are no 3 month old Marxists, so how can there be 3 month old Christians. I'm sure that won't work, but you could also remind them that if there is such a thing as God, he won't judge your child harshly for what you did or didn't do for him/her spiritually.