Israel-Gaza Conflict III - This Time It's On-Topic

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

incredibly bald man celebrates 600 deaths at the core of Gaza City, sort of thing they consider Arab Muslims are obsessed with doing.



it's quite illustrative, actually. this guy was far too much of an hellbent wingnut Zionism apologist before 2019 to have any public profile, but since his digging up the "English irony" thing on Jeremy Corbyn he's got the top job in the rescued from bankruptcy Jewish newspaper no one buys. No one mainstream is echoing him on this though (because its a fucking awful war crime)

Read about that earlier. IDF made sure to mention that evil, evil Hamas built their definitely real subterranean terror city near a school for the deaf.

[Kankurette]

Imagine celebrating a city being blown up when you're not involved in the conflict. And I doubt EVERY SINGLE PERSON who died was Hamas.

[RenegadeScrew]

Would be good to summarize as I don't think on any of the threads yet that anyone has argued for anti-zionism actually being anti-Semitism

Thank you.  Yes, the opposite has been mainly argued here.

Kinda difficult to summarise, but he runs through the various guises of Zionism and the history of them, and argues there are different forms of antizionism.  The Q&A is a bit more broad and is better.  I suppose he tries to give perspective on why certain things are "problematic". 

Here is a tweet referring to the lecture that might help some get past the title.  He's not bang on, but he's not a cunt.

[jamiefairlie]

Be careful with your public utterances in our brave new world

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2023/12/21/anti-israel-campaigner-arrested-over-hamas-support-tweet/

The 69-year-old was arrested on suspicion of supporting a proscribed organisation in relation to Hamas. 

[Buelligan]

Are they going to make him inhale helium now, before he speaks?

Still, he's a silly man.  If you want to say stuff like that, make sure you're on the right side.  They'll give you a big job and a seat on Question Time.

incredibly bald man celebrates 600 deaths at the core of Gaza City, sort of thing they consider Arab Muslims are obsessed with doing.



it's quite illustrative, actually. this guy was far too much of an hellbent wingnut Zionism apologist before 2019 to have any public profile, but since his digging up the "English irony" thing on Jeremy Corbyn he's got the top job in the rescued from bankruptcy Jewish newspaper no one buys. No one mainstream is echoing him on this though (because its a fucking awful war crime)

[RenegadeScrew]

Be careful with your public utterances in our brave new world

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2023/12/21/anti-israel-campaigner-arrested-over-hamas-support-tweet/

The 69-year-old was arrested on suspicion of supporting a proscribed organisation in relation to Hamas.

The good thing about these draconian laws being enforced is that self-publicists like this guy will be able to get quite a few miles out of it.  Maybe Sheridan and Galloway will also take advantage.

Greenstein should at least get a few blog posts out of it.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Be careful with your public utterances in our brave new world

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2023/12/21/anti-israel-campaigner-arrested-over-hamas-support-tweet/

The 69-year-old was arrested on suspicion of supporting a proscribed organisation in relation to Hamas.

Yeah they've lamped the head of the Scottish PSC with terror charges and made entering the city he lives in a breach of his bail conditions.

https://www.sacc.org.uk/press/2023/sacc-statement-arrest-mick-napier
https://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/legal-attacks/defence-of-our-rights-is-integral-to-effective-solidarity-with-palestinians

[Buelligan]

Ah but this is all perfectly normal and reasonable.  Just democracy in action.  Just keeping us all safe.  Britain has a right to defend herself.  Listen to this again, keep your ears pricked for the bits about Prevent and Palantir, their mutual friends and ties into British life. 

I just have to draw your attention to this, in case you haven't seen it.  Disturbing is a tiny word for something this big.

Then have a read of this, https://nitter.net/BBCPolitics/status/1718579601616629917

Or this https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64573216

Ask yourself whether it really is the people in small boats coming to your island that are threatening your way of life.  Your sovereignty.

BTW, Trevor Chinn, who gets a mention, was a financial backer of Owen Smith's challenge of Corbyn for the Labour leadership.  He also donated substantially to Starmer's leadership fund.  And to Joan Ryan and Tom Watson.

https://www.thecanary.co/exclusive/2020/04/17/keir-starmer-received-50000-donation-from-pro-israel-lobbyist-in-leadership-bid/

[BlodwynPig]

A shocking lack of systems of systems thinking leading to reactionary jingoism and cowardly retribution backed by the supplicant, deluded, and vainglorious middle.

[RenegadeScrew]

We need more people to provocatively say "thank you" to Hamas and to compare their fighters to those who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto. 

While the dead pile up in Gaza, we can always know we did everything we could.  We can tell the dead children that we drew attention to hypocrisy and created a few heroes for ourselves.

[RenegadeScrew]

A shocking lack of systems of systems thinking leading to reactionary jingoism and cowardly retribution backed by the supplicant, deluded, and vainglorious middle.

Nope, the only thing that causes change is collective action.

[Buelligan]

We need more people to provocatively say "thank you" to Hamas and to compare their fighters to those who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto. 

While the dead pile up in Gaza, we can always know we did everything we could.  We can tell the dead children that we drew attention to hypocrisy and created a few heroes for ourselves.

A joke, yes.  But, you see, I think you're right, we do have a problem with people, searching endlessly for reasons to clutch their pearls and hand-wring loudly rather than facing up to the genocide happening to kids like ours not far away.

You can understand why.  Focussing on outrages like allegedly supporting Hamas is so much easier than trying to stand up for and represent mass murder of starving trapped civilians, including little children and babies - did you know, in Gaza, since the beginning of Israel's defence of herself, support for Hamas has risen enormously, BTW?  So Israel must be doing something, some small thing, wrong, one would think.

Here's another outrage, Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto, talking on the subject -

[BlodwynPig]

Nope, the only thing that causes change is collective action.

What do you mean nope? Understanding the complexity of systems is key. Collective action fits exactly into that model given it draws on the strength of interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary know-how and experience.

[BlodwynPig]

Israel's defence of herself itself.

[Buelligan]

It was purposely done.  A gentle jibe if you will.

[BlodwynPig]

It was purposely done.  A gentle jibe if you will.

I thought as much.

[RenegadeScrew]

A joke, yes.  But, you see, I think you're right, we do have a problem with people, searching endlessly for reasons to clutch their pearls and hand-wring loudly rather than facing up to the genocide happening to kids like ours not far away.

You can understand why.  Focussing on outrages like allegedly supporting Hamas is so much easier than trying to stand up for and represent mass murder of starving trapped civilians, including little children and babies - did you know, in Gaza, since the beginning of Israel's defence of herself, support for Hamas has risen enormously, BTW?  So Israel must be doing something, some small thing, wrong, one would think.

Here's another outrage, Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto, talking on the subject -

The same Finkelstein who was subjected to a campaign of hatred and prevented from getting a teaching position because of his correct views.  I have already seen the interview with Moron.  He's a far greater ally imo than any self-publicists standing around in Glasgow.

Different strokes for different folks, but different standards for different blowhards.  I have said worse things about Oct 7 or Israel privately, but when public speaking we should look to emulate Tony Benn rather than gorgeous George.  Obviously this is one of many many reasons I don't do public speaking!

I'm not sure what you mean by easy/difficult. No pro-Israeli shill is ever going to say anything negative about Israel.  If one doesn't want the shills to focus on "allegedly" supporting Hamas, then best to be careful about how one speaks about Hamas.  The rising support for Hamas in Gaza is perfect and I suspect part of the Israeli plan. 

Maybe Mick Napier should've stood next to "Bibi" and they both could've said "thank you" to Hamas together.  Could even invite over a Qatari royal too.

[RenegadeScrew]

What do you mean nope? Understanding the complexity of systems is key. Collective action fits exactly into that model given it draws on the strength of interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary know-how and experience.

I'm dubious that anyone can understand such a complex system of systems that is in a permanent state of disequilibrium, and is subject to all sorts of positive and negative feedback loops.  And at the heart of the system is the random human, reacting to the system and changing it by doing so.  Sometimes the human will proactively react to something they think will happen.

As Soros makes the point in his 'alchemy of finance' this is case for economics and the reason why orthodox economics is largely just crap theory rather than reality.  I suspect much the same of even more complex systems.

[Buelligan]

The same Finkelstein who was subjected to a campaign of hatred and prevented from getting a teaching position because of his correct views.  I have already seen the interview with Moron.  He's a far greater ally imo than any self-publicists standing around in Glasgow.

Different strokes for different folks, but different standards for different blowhards.  I have said worse things about Oct 7 or Israel privately, but when public speaking we should look to emulate Tony Benn rather than gorgeous George.  Obviously this is one of many many reasons I don't do public speaking!

I'm not sure what you mean by easy/difficult. No pro-Israeli shill is ever going to say anything negative about Israel.  If one doesn't want the shills to focus on "allegedly" supporting Hamas, then best to be careful about how one speaks about Hamas.  The rising support for Hamas in Gaza is perfect and I suspect part of the Israeli plan. 

Maybe Mick Napier should've stood next to "Bibi" and they both could've said "thank you" to Hamas together.  Could even invite over a Qatari royal too.

I feel like we're in accordance.  I'm not sure if you fully understand me, the fault for that is mine, I do not always explain myself adequately.  My concern stems from the recognition that policing of this issue has become, for some, for some who are very vocal, more important than the issue itself.  IMO, this is not entirely happenstance. 

An example being - the searching amongst tens of thousands for any placard or symbol that could be waved at the world as SIGN of WICKEDNESS, rather than thinking about why such huge numbers of people might be so incredibly distressed by what is taking place.  Even, simply thinking about what is taking place, right now, in Gaza.  It's everywhere, the searching for any needle in this haystack to avoid pricking awareness of the supervolcano that is the purposeful abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel for these many decades and the current mass murder of them.

This policing which has unseated prospective Prime Ministers.  Created a climate of obedience and fear across the western world and is insidiously strangling any voice, even the stupid ones, that speak out against genocide.  Or even look as if they might.

We should reserve our outrage for those creating this climate and resist them, rather than helping them by internecine pettiness.  Even if we do that, I doubt we have enough.  But we must try.

[BlodwynPig]

I'm dubious that anyone can understand such a complex system of systems that is in a permanent state of disequilibrium, and is subject to all sorts of positive and negative feedback loops.  And at the heart of the system is the random human, reacting to the system and changing it by doing so.  Sometimes the human will proactively react to something they think will happen.

As Soros makes the point in his 'alchemy of finance' this is case for economics and the reason why orthodox economics is largely just crap theory rather than reality.  I suspect much the same of even more complex systems.

Agreed. It's not beholden on individuals as you alluded to, to understand these complexities or their interactions (entirely). It is probably a good starting point to acknowledge they exist rather than assuming linearity in all things...while noting that some things can be measurable, observable and demonstrable.

[DelurkedToHelp]

The United States remains committed to the Palestinian people's right to dignity and to self-determination.

The actions of Hamas terrorists don't take that right away.
2:35 PM · Oct 24, 2023

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1716810524833313147

[C_Larence]

I know everyone has moved on, and we all knew it at the time, but: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-claims-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-not-supported-evidence-washington-post_n_6584ae91e4b04da98426441c/amp

[Fambo Number Mive]

It's disturbing how much of the UK media seem to be ignoring the Washington Post investigation, it's a pretty major story. Thank you for posting that.

[Buelligan]

Absolutely.  Owen Jones did a good piece on it yesterday.

[DelurkedToHelp]

We're now into the "you're throwing trans people under the bus" stage of defending Biden/the Democrats' support of Israel's genocide (because it's clearly too much to ask for an anti-genocide & pro-trans platform) The Reverse Linehan manoeuver?

It's also been reported that the Biden administration is considering throwing migrants and asylum seekers under the bus by agreeing to harsh immigration policies to bung Ukraine more money, so is bus-throwing-under OK/sensible depending on which vulnerable category of person we're talking about? "We're fans of the trans but the browns can go down"?

https://nitter.net/fairhair96/status/1738529527725175201

[Buelligan]

The weird thing about that thing is we, the voters, we're not refusing to adopt policy.  We're just saying, I'm not voting for policy I disagree with.

We've got to such a pass with New Flavor Democracy now that there's no obligation to put forward policy people can sign up to.  No.  Just give the electorate your demands and make them suck it up and pay you for it.  Done with that.

[jamiefairlie]

We're now into the "you're throwing trans people under the bus" stage of defending Biden/the Democrats' support of Israel's genocide (because it's clearly too much to ask for an anti-genocide & pro-trans platform) The Reverse Linehan manoeuver?

It's also been reported that the Biden administration is considering throwing migrants and asylum seekers under the bus by agreeing to harsh immigration policies to bung Ukraine more money, so is bus-throwing-under OK/sensible depending on which vulnerable category of person we're talking about? "We're fans of the trans but the browns can go down"?

https://nitter.net/fairhair96/status/1738529527725175201

Nothing to do with vulnerable people, never had been never will be. Follow the money, if there's important people lining your pocket to support a policy then that's what happens. There are no moral positions, just rhetorical arguments to justify the actions that are based on self serving interests. It's not complicated.

[Paul Calf]

The good thing about these draconian laws being enforced is that self-publicists like this guy will be able to get quite a few miles out of it.  Maybe Sheridan and Galloway will also take advantage.

Greenstein should at least get a few blog posts out of it.

Tony Greenstein, 69, was taken into custody for questioning by terror police yesterday morning

That is a sentence.

[RenegadeScrew]

I feel like we're in accordance.  I'm not sure if you fully understand me, the fault for that is mine, I do not always explain myself adequately.  My concern stems from the recognition that policing of this issue has become, for some, for some who are very vocal, more important than the issue itself.  IMO, this is not entirely happenstance. 

An example being - the searching amongst tens of thousands for any placard or symbol that could be waved at the world as SIGN of WICKEDNESS, rather than thinking about why such huge numbers of people might be so incredibly distressed by what is taking place.  Even, simply thinking about what is taking place, right now, in Gaza.  It's everywhere, the searching for any needle in this haystack to avoid pricking awareness of the supervolcano that is the purposeful abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel for these many decades and the current mass murder of them.

I hear you, but it is not completely new.  During the miners strike the BBC famously ran the footage from Orgreave out of order to make it look like the miners instigated the riots.  They didn't find any needle, they just invented it.

Whenever the posties went on strike in Edinburgh, the evening news (local paper) would always find a way to interview some striking posties from the pub, much to the annoyance of my mates dad who was a postie.

I agree something has changed though and the Israelis are doing a sort-of Trump propaganda campaign.  In the past they used to rely on the fact that barely anyone other than Arafat had bothered to look at the proposed map.  Now they are just doubling-down on any old shite.

We should reserve our outrage for those creating this climate and resist them, rather than helping them by internecine pettiness.  Even if we do that, I doubt we have enough.  But we must try.

I agree and thanks for the new word.  But we should also be wary of supporting people who are being silly and not really helping much.

[RenegadeScrew]

Agreed. It's not beholden on individuals as you alluded to, to understand these complexities or their interactions (entirely). It is probably a good starting point to acknowledge they exist rather than assuming linearity in all things...while noting that some things can be measurable, observable and demonstrable.

Yes true.  Do you have any recommended reading for systems thinking in the context we are talking about?