Indie developer gets #metoo’d by Zoe Quinn and commits suicide [split topic]

[Twed]

One of the main developers/creators of Night in the Woods managed to reignite fucking GamerGate, get kicked out of the development studio and kill himself all in the space of about a week. Pretty impressive

[Twed]

I wonder what he'll do next?

[bgmnts]

Sexually harass someone in the afterlife.

[Bizarro Mark Bosnich]

It's chilling to see people on the outside talk about Holowka's "victims" when they weren't there and not involved. I understand the need to take claims of abuse seriously, considering how shockingly they used to be dealt with, but I didn't think 'seriously' meant accepting ones you have no personal stake in always as 100% true and having no care for the effect an allegation will have on the accused's life. I know Holowka was kicked out by his team, so perhaps him being a wrong 'un was well-established even within the company and they took their opportunity, but equally they could have had only limited proof (I mean, what exactly was the "corroborating evidence" related to the accusation?) and were desperate to cover their asses for fear of what might happen if they weren't seen to be doing something.

Being a victim of physical and emotional abuse myself, I guess I have reason to be less trusting than most, but why do so many people seem comfortable with those who don't know the parties involved adding to the chorus of condemnation?

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Don't know the facts but this seems like an unfortunate rejoinder to the casualness with which people online try to cause non-famous, non-rich people to lose their jobs.

[Bizarro Mark Bosnich]

Looking into this a bit more, his sister and the developers who spoke out about his behaviour seemed to say he was unstable and prone to lashing out at people pre-2015 but that in 2015 he acknowledged his issues, went to therapy and worked through them, becoming a much better person afterwards, so why was this all dragged up again? Was Holowka's relationship with Quinn post-2015?

[Twed]

I think it's clear that the accusations are reliable.

[Bizarro Mark Bosnich]

Seems that way, yeah. What a horrible situation.

[Twed]

It's easy to think that Zoe Quinn is really annoying, because she's an indie gaming socialite. Always there. And it is annoying, socialites are annoying. But they are also sometimes vulnerable and abusable and the GamerGate crowd will refuse to accept that.

[Ferris]

I think certain industries are far more sensitive to this stuff than others. The video game industry seem particularly quick to act (which makes sense as they were sort of ground zero) - Nick Robinson was canned from Polygon and is now a total pariah, though never accused of anything beyond (what both parties agreed was) consensual text flirting. Err on the side of caution and end his career, utterly, just in case.

Not defending him because he always seemed a twat, but if he was a film writer like Max Landis or a member of the royal family like [another person] then they'd skate on regardless.

I don't know what the answer is really, but this is clearly a tragedy and there aren't any winners.

It's easy to think that Zoe Quinn is really annoying, because she's an indie gaming socialite. Always there. And it is annoying, socialites are annoying. But they are also sometimes vulnerable and abusable and the GamerGate crowd will refuse to accept that.

This is true, but conversely it doesn't mean that everyone is flawless either.

[madhair60]

Night in the Woods is awful, but this wasn't necessary. He could have just pulled the game and apologised

[Funcrusher]

Looking into this a bit more, his sister and the developers who spoke out about his behaviour seemed to say he was unstable and prone to lashing out at people pre-2015 but that in 2015 he acknowledged his issues, went to therapy and worked through them, becoming a much better person afterwards, so why was this all dragged up again?

Dare I say because Zoe Quinn's career, such as it is, is on the outs and she was looking to get back in the public eye again? This was a relationship involving two people who seem to have sizeable issues and only one person's account was heard.

[madhair60]

I don't think it was Zoe who "outed" him as an abuser, rather she signal-boosted someone else? I might be wrong.

Also Zoe just got hired to write some Marvel comics iirc

[Cloud]

If only there was a proper legal system for these matters, instead of public shaming and vigilantism on fucking Twitter.

The way human society has elevated, to such damaging importance, a platform designed for (originally) 140 characters of shitposting about your dinner is absolutely insane.  We shouldn't be doing justice on there, or politics, or international diplomacy.

We grappled with all these issues like, centuries ago and came up with a legal system, and one in which you are considered innocent until proven guilty.  It's not perfect, sometimes it means people get away with things, but it's the best that we have, and still way better than the Twitterati running around getting people fired, hounding them to the point of suicide etc....

[imitationleather]

If only there was a proper legal system for these matters, instead of public shaming and vigilantism on fucking Twitter.

Before the guy even committed suicide this was my take on it.

[Funcrusher]

I don't think it was Zoe who "outed" him as an abuser, rather she signal-boosted someone else? I might be wrong.

Also Zoe just got hired to write some Marvel comics iirc

From what she was saying in her Twitter post she was the first person outing this guy, which she was saying made it very daunting, as he was supposedly a big name in development circles.

She does appear to have picked up this Marvel thing. I gather that her Vertigo comic hasn't done great sales wise and its future is uncertain. She also has a Kickstarter for a game that has never been made.

[checkoutgirl]

Nick Robinson was canned from Polygon and is now a total pariah, though never accused of anything beyond (what both parties agreed was) consensual text flirting. Err on the side of caution and end his career, utterly, just in case.

The BBC are still employing him on the Today programme so it's not the end of the world.

[checkoutgirl]

If only there was a proper legal system for these matters, instead of public shaming and vigilantism on fucking Twitter.

The way human society has elevated, to such damaging importance, a platform designed for (originally) 140 characters of shitposting about your dinner is absolutely insane.  We shouldn't be doing justice on there, or politics, or international diplomacy.

We grappled with all these issues like, centuries ago and came up with a legal system, and one in which you are considered innocent until proven guilty.  It's not perfect, sometimes it means people get away with things, but it's the best that we have, and still way better than the Twitterati running around getting people fired, hounding them to the point of suicide etc....

Even before Twitter if someone accused you of sexual offences your life could be over. It's just Twitter makes it a lot faster. From first accusation to suicide by the end of the week.

[Thursday]

She was saying it was a known thing among circles, so she was speaking from her own experience and others it seems.

Worth nothing, Alex Holowka's sister who announced the death, also say she believes Zoe. Whatever you think of announcing things this way, there's also an obligation on him to apologize. And the fact that the response to the announcement from his sister, which was the opposite of any kind of call to arms, was more abuse for Zoe Quinn. Don't care what you think of her, she's got so much undeserved shit. This is obviously isn't what she wanted, the idea that she did this to "boost her profile" is just... no.

Now there's a lot of people who don't care about Holowka, or his family. They just want ammo to use against Quinn.

Also as for twitter "call-outs" ruining people's lives... hasn't hurt Louie CK that badly, has it?

[Thursday]

Probably going to have to back out of this thread, because it's just going to make me really angry seeing how it's basically another gamergate thread.

[Funcrusher]

Worth nothing, Alex Holowka's sister who announced the death, also say she believes Zoe.

Has she said this? She acknowledges that he was an unstable person who caused some harm to others, I've not seen her endorse Quinn's version of events.

the idea that she did this to "boost her profile" is just... no.

Her past behaviour just doesn't present her as a particularly good actor who behaves with good motives.

Also as for twitter "call-outs" ruining people's lives... hasn't hurt Louie CK that badly, has it?

That still doesn't make it right. Al Franken hasn't done too well after being called out.

[madhair60]

God almighty this thread is going to be absolute bloodcum.

[Thursday]

Has she said this? She acknowledges that he was an unstable person who caused some harm to others, I've not seen her endorse Quinn's version of events.

"Alec Holowka, my brother and best friend, passed away this morning.

Those who know me will know that I believe survivors and I have always done everything I can to support survivors, those suffering from mental illnesses, and those with chronic illnesses. Alec was a victim of abuse and he also spent a lifetime battling mood and personality disorders. I will not pretend that he was not also responsible for causing harm, but deep down he was a person who wanted only to offer people care and kindness. It took him a while to figure out how.

Over the last few years, with therapy and medication, Alec became a new person--the same person he'd always been but without any of the darkness. He was calm and happy, positive and loving. Obviously, change is a slow process and it wasn't perfect, but he was working towards rehabilitation and a better life.

In the last few days, he was supported by many Manitoba crisis services, and I want to thank everyone there for their support. I want to thank Adam Saltsman for staying up late talking with us and reminding Alec that there was a future.

My family has and always will be the most important thing to me. Please give us time to heal. We tried our best to support Alec, but in the end he felt he had lost too much.

I currently do not see a place for myself in games or on Twitter. I will not be looking at the responses to this post. I appreciate everyone who has reached out to me over the last few days. For anyone who is in a time of darkness, I encourage you to reach out for support. There are always people who will be there for you."

In a follow up tweet, Eileen stated, "And in case it's not already fucking obvious, Alec *specifically said* he wished the best for Zoe and everyone else, so don't use our grief as an excuse to harass people. Go outside, take care of someone, and work towards preventing these kinds of things in the first place."

(Hadn't seen that follow-up tweet about Zoe, don't know if he'd ever reached out to her after the events)

Her past behaviour just doesn't present her as a particularly good actor who behaves with good motives.

That still doesn't make it right. Al Franken hasn't done too well after being called out.

Well I'm not really with you on her past behaviour, the problem here is, any documentation, isn't a reliable source to me because the people behind it tend to have their own agenda, which I realize is a bit of a get out, but I'm not sure what else to do about that.

And the argument for twitter callouts - because they so rarely lead to convictions, there's usually threats at the time of "I'll kill you if you go to the police" and it can be especially difficult to report these things after the fact. Maybe that still doesn't make it the right way to go about it, but it's also why it's not always as simple as following the usual legal proceedings.

Ultimately this is an awful situation for everyone. I just don't think the appropriate response is to continue grinding your axe against Zoe Quinn.

[Cloud]

Even before Twitter if someone accused you of sexual offences your life could be over. It's just Twitter makes it a lot faster. From first accusation to suicide by the end of the week.

Of course.  But yeah it makes it faster and easier, especially when there's the human disconnection involved (which makes me glad there's not yet the ability to hurt or kill someone via mouse click)

[biggytitbo]

Who are these people.

[madhair60]

Your mum and your dad.

[Famous Mortimer]

If only there was a proper legal system for these matters, instead of public shaming and vigilantism on fucking Twitter.

The way human society has elevated, to such damaging importance, a platform designed for (originally) 140 characters of shitposting about your dinner is absolutely insane.  We shouldn't be doing justice on there, or politics, or international diplomacy.

We grappled with all these issues like, centuries ago and came up with a legal system, and one in which you are considered innocent until proven guilty.  It's not perfect, sometimes it means people get away with things, but it's the best that we have, and still way better than the Twitterati running around getting people fired, hounding them to the point of suicide etc....

How naive are you?

https://theconversation.com/survivors-of-sexual-violence-are-let-down-by-the-criminal-justice-system-heres-what-should-happen-next-94138

https://www.lawnow.org/putting-trials-on-trial-sexual-assault-and-the-failure-of-the-legal-profession-book-review/

The criminal justice system treats survivors of sexual abuse incredibly badly, and the reason people have taken to shaming abusers in public is because the legal system absolutely does not work for them. Are you seriously blaming the victim here for the abuser committing suicide? Are you comparing being accused correctly of sexual abuse with the trauma of being abused?

Her past behaviour just doesn't present her as a particularly good actor who behaves with good motives.

Her past behaviour is calling out sexual abuse in her chosen industry. Your past behaviour is abusing the victims of sexual abuse or claiming it doesn't happen at all. Your motives are deeply unpleasant and despite every single thing that's emerged since the beginning of this rotten story, you're still blaming the victims for their abuse.

[Mister Six]

What you've got to remember is that Funcrusher is terrified of women.

That said, I agree with Cloud. If people want to put their energy into making a change happen, put it into pushing for an overhaul of the criminal justice system, not hounding people to their death.

[Twed]

So you think that #metoo is essentially a bad thing and that people should put their trust in the wonderful services provided to us by The Police?

[Twed]

I'm sorry, clearly you weren't saying that.

Instead you just want to tell victims of sexual abuse that their next step is to overhaul the criminal justice system. Brilliant

Why did I post about this?