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Poohthology Test

Started by bgmnts, July 04, 2022, 12:26:30 AM

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bgmnts

They just offer you a snack and if you choose a carrot you are Eeyore, if you choose some honey you're Pooh etc etc. Basic therapy really.


idunnosomename

Cant be bothered with this how do i just get it to give me 100% Eeyore

Stigdu

Quote from: idunnosomename on July 04, 2022, 01:18:24 PMCant be bothered with this how do i just get it to give me 100% Eeyore

Get a small child to sit on your back and ride them around the beach?

Dex Sawash

Quote from: idunnosomename on July 04, 2022, 01:18:24 PMCant be bothered with this how do i just get it to give me 100% Eeyore

Open link, moan "oh, bother" turn around

Buelligan

Quote from: katzenjammer on July 04, 2022, 10:07:24 AMI kind of think these tests are unhelpful and possibly dangerous.

Maybe for some but they're positively great for spooks and online snake oil salespersons.  Who are we to stand in the way of Science?

frajer

"Are you Winnie the Pooh?"

Y-> You are Winnie the Pooh.

N-> This is the worst case of Pooh Denial I've ever seen.

mrClaypole

Apparently I'm schizophrenic like Christopher Robin

Mr Vegetables

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 10:49:46 AMWe've got people that think CBT is mumbo jumbo

I think we're mostly being told we believe planes can't fly after being thrown out of a balloon in a box with the words "THIS IS A PLANE" on it— and that there is no meaningful problem in this story, because actually planes can fly

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mr Vegetables on July 04, 2022, 03:39:47 PMI think we're mostly being told we believe planes can't fly after being thrown out of a balloon in a box with the words "THIS IS A PLANE" on it— and that there is no meaningful problem in this story, because actually planes can fly

Eh? No idea what this is.


Did we get to the bottom about whether you cancelled your appointment or not?

i got fucking tigger like a cunt, not cool and interesting schizophrenia

i went away to see an old friend of mine
his bear came over, naked to the waist

Mr Vegetables

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 03:42:09 PMEh? No idea what this is.


Did we get to the bottom about whether you cancelled your appointment or not?

Well, there wasn't an appointment, it was a mass group thing where we all sat around a table and an awkward woman said "really, everything is fine!" while all us depressed people looked sad and unconvinced. And it was called CBT, although I would be surprised if it had any resemblance to something a professional would recognise as such. There certainly wasn't one of them in the room.

I think I forgot to say I wasn't going, in the aftermath of my stepfather hanging himself? And of course it's just overwhelming really, when you've been on a waiting list for a year for something this shit, get an automatically stern letter when you do, get deflated and miserable as a result. I'm deflated now, having to recount all this again to an employee of NHS Mental Health Services, in order to win a petty argument on the internet.

This doesn't really have anything to do with Winnie the Pooh at all! If Christopher Robin is schizophrenic, is that supposed to mean he's imagining all the other characters? Does that mean he's imagining all the other mental illnesses, and they would go away if he died?



TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mr Vegetables on July 04, 2022, 04:04:02 PMI think I forgot to say I wasn't going, in the aftermath of my stepfather hanging himself? And of course it's just overwhelming really, when you've been on a waiting list for a year for something this shit, get an automatically stern letter when you do, get deflated and miserable as a result.

You got a letter because you missed the appointment without letting them know.  I'm sorry for your loss, it is understandable that losing a family member (many of us go through this) makes life admin difficult, as it is understandable that people who had booked a space for you sent you a letter when you didn't show up and didn't inform them - they are not mind readers and I would try not to see it as them intentionally trying to upset you.

Buelligan

It's pretty clear that he is a bit upset so why not be a bit more gentle, old sport.

TrenterPercenter

I caved and took it anyway (in the interests of science).



Couldn't be more wrong.  I'm hardly OCD as my partner would attest.

Lemming

I always read CBT as "cock and ball torture" and chuckle at the idea of patients getting their nuts crushed to deal with anxiety.

This is the sole reason my "Eeyore (Depression)" rating is a cool 3%.

frajer

These all feel like usernames going begging.

Greetings to future new members Rabbit OCD and Piglet Anxiety.

Stigdu

I can sooooorta understand why they'd associate Tigger with ADHD (jumps around a lot) and Eeyore with depression (always moping about), but Christopher Robin has schizophrenia? That poor little baby kangaroo has autism?!

Who asssessed these animals (and Chris)? If these are professional diagnoses, I wouldn't let them come near me with a ten-foot pole.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Stigdu on July 04, 2022, 05:30:31 PMI can sooooorta understand why they'd associate Tigger with ADHD (jumps around a lot) and Eeyore with depression (always moping about), but Christopher Robin has schizophrenia? That poor little baby kangaroo has autism?!

Presumably as was alluded to by Mr Veg, Christopher Robbin imagines his toys are alive and talked to them which is a quite stereotypical and arguably harmful view of people suffering with psychosis.

QuoteWho asssessed these animals (and Chris)? If these are professional diagnoses, I wouldn't let them come near me with a ten-foot pole.

It looks like they've taken part schedules from a few diagnostic measures they thought represented the characters and then made the test.  There is only the illusion here of professionalism purely to sell their personality test book by the look of it.



Ooowweeeeeeee oooohoink (scared little piggy noises)

kittens

mixture of autistic rat and depresed horse

kittens

i did not take the test as i have far better things to do with my time

You're just scared you're gonna be the slag one off sex and the city again.

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 12:25:54 PMIt is helpful for anxiety (not sure why you are empathising the disorder) and mild, moderate depression, it has been found in lots of different independent studies to do so.  Anxiety and depression are linked and have overlapping symptomology.  It has also been found to be effective for psychosis as well as lots of other conditions.  It's isn't a panacea however, nothing is, that isn't how MH works.

There is some evidence for CBT being effective for severe depression there was a meta analysis in 2017 that showed it was effective across 5 independent trials (Furukawa et al 2017 if you are interested).  The sample size was enough for statistical significance but more research needs to be conducted here as surprise surprise whilst there are 20 trials for antidepressants vs placebo at the time of publishing there were only 5 for CBT (because pharmaceutical companies have a vested interest researching their products - also note CBT was found to be slightly more effective than AD in these trials).


It works.  Unfortunately it didn't work for you, we could do with understanding what mechanism that CBT becomes actively unhelpful, why does it help some and not others because obviously there are lots of things that come into this including type of provisions and resistance to treatment.  This is nothing unique to CBT here, medication has been associated much more with suicide, suicidal thoughts, and poor long-term recovery but it seems to be getting a very easy ride on here.

It also isn't the only thing available on the NHS you can of course get counselling and several other therapies depending on your local NHS trust (all of them are different and provide different services - in some of them you can still get ECT if you were that way inclined). 

I'd be interested to know what you would like to be available?

There is so much utter nonsense here that I don't know where to begin. I mean, yes, CBT works for some people (a mixture of CBT and talking therapy helped me a lot in 2008, for example), but it is very simplistic and trying to get any other kind of help from the NHS is incredibly difficult. I was in a psychiatric ward back for three weeks dealing with grief, suicidal ideation and a number of other issues in 2018 and the only advice I got from the therapist (who had to deal with twenty patients in the three hours she would spent at the unit each week) was "Well at least you're not a poor starving African child".

I'm sure you can list other examples where it has helped people, and of course they exist, but the way the NHS handles mental health in general is an absolute fucking shambles.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Small Man Big Horse on July 04, 2022, 07:31:49 PMThere is so much utter nonsense here that I don't know where to begin. I mean, yes, CBT works for some people (a mixture of CBT and talking therapy helped me a lot in 2008, for example), but it is very simplistic and trying to get any other kind of help from the NHS is incredibly difficult. I was in a psychiatric ward back for three weeks dealing with grief, suicidal ideation and a number of other issues in 2018 and the only advice I got from the therapist (who had to deal with twenty patients in the three hours she would spent at the unit each week) was "Well at least you're not a poor starving African child".

I'm sure you can list other examples where it has helped people, and of course they exist, but the way the NHS handles mental health in general is an absolute fucking shambles.

@SMBH it is starting feel like I am soaking up a lot of people's anger at the MH system here, as if I'm defending it and telling you all CBT is great and solves everyone's problems.

This isn't the case and  I can explain why.  When you say "there is so much utter nonsense here" what do you mean? Or rather what do think I mean?

Do you think I'm lying about the studies that show CBTs effectiveness?
That anxiety and depression don't overlap and often coexist?
That CBT isn't the only talking therapy available on the NHS?

Can you just explain what it is you think is nonsense before we go any further here.  I feel I know what you are saying here (a scream into the void about how shit MH services - something perhaps my views on might surprise you) but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 04, 2022, 07:43:25 PM@SMBH it is starting feel like I am soaking up a lot of people's anger at the MH system here, as if I'm defending it and telling you all CBT is great and solves everyone's problems.

This isn't the case and  I can explain why.  When you say "there is so much utter nonsense here" what do you mean? Or rather what do think I mean?

Do you think I'm lying about the studies that show CBTs effectiveness?
That anxiety and depression don't overlap and often coexist?
That CBT isn't the only talking therapy available on the NHS?

Can you just explain what it is you think is nonsense before we go any further here.  I feel I know what you are saying here (a scream into the void about how shit MH services - something perhaps my views on might surprise you) but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

What I'm saying is that getting any help other than CBT is an extraordinary difficult thing, and sometimes impossible, and the NHS in general is dealing with mental illness in a horrifyingly poor way.

My experiences are of course anecdotal, but they come not only from my own difficulties but also from several friends, and two close friends who used to work for the NHS in that field but left because of the changes that have been made to how we deal with mental illness in the last ten years, and so now work privately.

Goldentony

Yeah getting your hands on anything that isn't CBT is like Temple Of Doom, and the over reliance of it for years now is what's giving it it's joke/shite reputation as something you have to wait 18 months for only for it to be a group session in a conference centre with 30 other people.  Like I remember mid session after the woman had described it all to us a woman about 40 years older than the rest of us very calmly asked us how this was supposed to help if the person you oved had fucking died and you didn't want to think of a future without them and there was just nothing, nobody could say fuck all or deal with it properly. They just went ahead with the lesson after going AEERE EUURGHERERASAR???

I remember telling them at the end of the very first session that this was absolutely useless to me, and since then the most i've been able to get any access to is more CBT, different anti depressants or a 30 free trips to the gym.

Pimhole

No it isn't; no it isn't; no she didn't; no they didn't; no you didn't; yes you could. Statistics. HTH!

TrenterPercenter

#59
Quote from: Small Man Big Horse on July 04, 2022, 08:11:41 PMWhat I'm saying is that getting any help other than CBT is an extraordinary difficult thing, and sometimes impossible, and the NHS in general is dealing with mental illness in a horrifyingly poor way.

OK but can you see that my post isn't about that? You said "There is so much utter nonsense here that I don't know where to begin" but what? I've just outlined the 3 points I actually covered and none of them are "nonsense".

All I've said from the start on this is that CBT, the model, and the basis for the multitude of inventions works.  The services it is provided in don't (or rather there is a spectrum from atrocious to sometimes good) and delivery is on the large abysmal.  Can you see the difference in points here?

Carrying out heart surgery might work but underfund it, carry it out in dirty theatres with untrained staff and its effectiveness will be reduced and (as someone pointed out) it becomes dangerous.  Be clear on what I am saying and what I'm not saying here.  My point across a couple of threads now is really based in fighting for more access and better forms of non-pharmaceutical therapeutic interventions, that's it.  It is a fundamentally different argument to say talking therapies don't work, well if they don't get rid of them.  That doesn't lead to more choice on the NHS, it leads to less, it leads to take these pills and fuck off until you kill yourself or somebody else.

Of course I think services, including IAPT are largely poor I just don't want people not even try and get what in a few cases might be beneficial (there are still some good services being run), my job is all about trying to prevent child and adolescent mental health conditions because services will NEVER be able to meet treatment needs (this is a bit different with early intervention but the the treatment gap in adult services is fundementally the same) but why do you think services in the NHS are horrifyingly poor? I sometimes think people are just utterly shocked by this when they have to use them, perhaps I've just become worn down by it that I'm not shocked anymore, that is just the way it is and has been for a long time.

The question is as always what do we do about it?

1. Get rid of talking therapies, despite the masses of benefits they provide if properly resourced and delivered - putting all poor people on pharmaceutical reliance whilst those that can afford it acquire what then becomes an inflated therapy circuit - this is America.
2. The dreaded innovate your way out of it, there are things we are working on, largely in prevention that could help reduce the treatment gap and free up resources but they will take time to come online realistically 5-10 years.  Cutting off what talking therapies we do have at the moment and dust balling the infrastructure that could be put to better use in a new system seems really quite short sighted.
3. Campaign and politicise the need for better MH services, enshrining the right to proper choice and well delivered MH services (access to properly trained psychotherapists and not under-trained low intensity CBT practitioners operating as fully qualified therapists).

My solution is 2 and 3, but 1 is the way we are going.  American healthcare models are absolutely geared up to step in, mass medicate and remove state provided talking therapies, they are incompatible with models around social determinant of health and you will lose more than just access to IAPT in this eventually.  I work with people across the pond they are in awe of our services.

Can people not see that is what I'm trying to defend against?! That is what I work myself sick in doing 6 days a week?! Do you think I've not thought about all of this very hard, that it pleases me to have to make the nuanced argument, that it is shit but they are poised to make it much shitter?  Do you think I've got time and respect for anyone telling people to "pretend they are a plane" or to be thankful they are "not starving in Africa".  It's an abysmal way to treat people. I've got a history of telling other in MH services exactly what I've thought about their approach and refuse to sell out to some cushy private practice to deliver overpriced therapy to rich people despite it absolutely being in my best interests and wellbeing.

You can describe your horror stories of treatment I'm sure, and it breaks my heart you've had to suffer them, I've seen 1000s of them, I've lost people, lots of them, I've had people living on the street outside our units because they then need treatment and there are no beds, my first supervisor killed herself due to work stresses and of course like lots of other people I've had to use MH services for myself, friends and family (currently have a friend stuck in an institution 300 miles away because there are no local beds) - there are no special passes or mates rates. 

I assure you I have an absolute distain for how our MH system works and I'm not saying anything to the contrary.  You can get other therapies on the NHS (mainly counselling) but it is dependent on where you live, don't let that fact imply I don't agree that they are hard to get access too and might ultimately be very poor when you get there.