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Forums => Deeper Into Movies => Topic started by: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 05:17:53 PM

Title: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 05:17:53 PM
Watched The Matrix the other week (one of the best action/1990s films ever btw) and had never followed it up with the sequels, so I thought I'd give them a go for the sake of completeness.

What an astonishing decline in quality. Wikipedia must be lying because it suggests the critical consensus for both was broadly positive, when I remember pretty much everyone I know who saw them saying they were baffling shite (and they were right).

Did the Wachowskis just forget how to tell a story? In the first you are with Neo every step of the way, learning about the Matrix piece by piece until it all makes sense. The second opens with a bunch of people you don't know or care about talking about a bunch of stuff you don't know or care about, and that sets the tone for the rest of the film. In the first, every action sequence is perfectly choregraphed, paced and justified. In the second, the attitude is "more is more" and it quickly becomes dull.

The Matrix Reloaded suffers greatly from what appears to be zero use of location filming - everything feels so small and fake because it's filmed in some tiny studio lot with poor CGI to fill in the blanks. The script gives hard as nails Trinity nothing to do except die and she becomes just another girl who can't stomach her boy kissing someone else. The orgasm pudding sequence is supremely embarrassing. They introduced way too many interesting concepts (multiple Agent Smiths, Neo/the One as a repeatable programmed event, Zion itself) when one would have sufficed.

I'm presuming the studio just let the Wachowskis get on with it, which was a mistake. They should've sent the fanfictionesque script back to the drawing board and sketched out a simple story with some badass action sequences.

The Matrix Revolutions is better because, while it's pretty dumb, at least you understand the characters' motivations: the humans want to defend Zion and Neo wants to defeat Smith. It's basically the Return of the King, but it works. (The CGI is actually well used in this film imo).

The sequels feel like the comic book tie-ins of famous franchises. They should've stayed that way. It is baffling that the same creative team would get it so wrong.

Sorry if that was a rant, but I remember some people defending them on here. I'm ready to fight you and your wrong opinions 👊
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 09, 2021, 05:41:12 PM
The first film is pretty much your identikit heroes journey isnt it? the uniqueness came almost entirely from the setting and most of that was really style rather than having an specialty fleshed out world.

Of the two sequels I felt Reloaded was much the better personally, the opening in Zion was incredibly dull but back in the Matrix was at least fun with Lambert Wilson camping it up and a lot of interesting action were as Revolutions basically became a dumb Emmerich film with its generic battle against robo/alien baddies losing any sense of cool the franchise previously had.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 09, 2021, 05:58:37 PM

The Matrix sequels are a bit like Oasis' Be Here Now. Two brothers whose recipe had worked so they'll chuck more guitars on more tracks (more coke) and turn it all up to eleven. The Matrix was such a huge commercial and critical hit that it couldn't go wrong, right? If they loved Bullet Time THEY'LL LOVE THIS!  It's also important to remember - as I think I do - that first film despite its ultimate success kind of came from nowhere. There was no great lead in publicity, the first reviews weren't cheerleading and it went viral by word of mouth and passed into the culture almost immediately. So the sequels were never really going to top that, especially when the plot and story didn't even seem to make sense to itself.

And you're right about the CGI, it occurred to me recently that in much the same way that the Nostromo in Alien is like a character, the city setting (which was Sydney I think) was too. It perfectly captured a modern, oppressive and faceless sprawl. That was lost with the CGI.  There's a good making of documentary on line somewhere.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: surreal on August 09, 2021, 06:35:28 PM
Re-watching Blade and Dark City after watching The Matrix also highlights how many things occur in all those movies, Blade especially is similar in many ways.  Not saying rip-off as it's all Sci-Fi but it does make for interesting viewing in hindsight

EDIT: oh, and The Thirteenth Floor also
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: C_Larence on August 09, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Loved Reloaded, only slightly less than the original. Revolutions suffers immensely from primarily taking place in Zion. Speed Racer is better than them both though.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Johnny Textface on August 09, 2021, 08:03:41 PM
The flying gag at the end of the first one really fucked things up.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 09:09:06 PM
Quote from: C_Larence on August 09, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Loved Reloaded, only slightly less than the original.

This opinion is madness to me, really. When was the last time you watched it? The Matrix Reloaded is 6/10 at best.

Quote from: Johnny Textface on August 09, 2021, 08:03:41 PM
The flying gag at the end of the first one really fucked things up.

Yep, I can see that. As a one-off, Neo flying right at the end with Rage Against the Machine playing was literally the coolest thing I had ever seen. But then they had to actually follow it up with more films and incorporate it. Neo flying in to save Morpheus from the car crash just looks shit by comparison.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on August 09, 2021, 09:23:01 PM
The first one's the story of a hero coming into his powers, which gives it a natural momentum, coupled with revealing how everything works. But the scenario doesn't make enough sense for more than one film. But it's very hard to extend a great film like that: imagine if Brazil or Dark City or Terminator were extended into trilogies - it's downhill all the way.

The second film in particular had almost omnipotent heroes and villains being forced to be vulnerable so there was a plot. At least when it goes to Zion there are real stakes.

Having said that, there's a lot to enjoy in both the sequels - nowhere near the first, but cool characters, great design, some good action. Just not the pleasure of Keanu discovering everything was a lie and he could do anything he wanted.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 09, 2021, 09:56:04 PM
They should never have been made and added nothing.

The first film is brilliant because it manages to keep you so close to the central character that you feel almost constantly vulnerable until he is given some powers to fight back. It helps with the stakes and attachment to what's happening. It is essentially classic storytelling with superb editing and direction. Reeves, well, you couldn't have chosen a better actor for that part. Culturally it seemed to hit the exact moment in time too.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 09, 2021, 10:20:20 PM
I remember being in the cinema for Revolutions and there was widespread laughter in the audience at some of the unintentional silliness.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 09, 2021, 10:34:36 PM
Haven't seen The Matrix for a few years but last time I watched it I was really impressed by the editing and the pacing of information, the balance of exposition. Learning about everything is a real pleasure. It's so satisfying when stories get that right and surprisingly few do.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Alberon on August 09, 2021, 10:45:21 PM
I do have this nasty feeling that Matrix 2 and 3 will be seen as 'not that bad really' compared to Matrix 4[nb]<Miranda>Ooh, I 've said Matrix too much and it's gone all funny. Matrix Matrix Matrix.</Miranda>[/nb].
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 09, 2021, 10:46:03 PM
Quote from: popcorn on August 09, 2021, 10:34:36 PM
Haven't seen The Matrix for a few years but last time I watched it I was really impressed by the editing and the pacing of information, the balance of exposition. Learning about everything is a real pleasure. It's so satisfying when stories get that right and surprisingly few do.

Watched it a couple of times on UHD recently and it definitely does hold up.

I think a big part of the weakness of the sequels though is that they are too enamoured with the setting without really having the imagination to turn it into something of genuine substance. They would I think have been better off just sticking to the characters the way Starwars did with Empire, that's much of the reason why the first film works that Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and Smith are all excellent blockbuster characters and the film gives plenty of time to slowly playing their stories out. The sequels are so focused on the grand plotting theres very little time for this and what there is ends up feeling too melodramatic as a result.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: C_Larence on August 09, 2021, 11:08:15 PM
Quote from: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 09:09:06 PM
This opinion is madness to me, really. When was the last time you watched it? The Matrix Reloaded is 6/10 at best.

I watched all three movies in March. I'd seen the original a few times but never either of the sequels (although I'd played Enter The Matrix on PS2, which I believe takes place during Reloaded). My letterboxd ratings were 5, 4 and 2 stars. I remember thinking the highway chase scene in Reloaded was particularly spectacular.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Dex Sawash on August 10, 2021, 01:07:48 AM
The first one is also shit
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Chollis on August 10, 2021, 07:33:37 AM
Quote from: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 09:09:06 PM
The Matrix Reloaded is 6/10 at best.

The Merovingian and motorway sequence alone elevate it above a 6/10, come on now.

First one is the best action movie ever made and should be in everyone's top 10 list of all time, cheers
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 10, 2021, 07:39:08 AM
If you could somehow edit the last two into one average-length film focusing on the good bits (the highway chase in Reloaded; the final superhero fight in Revolutions) and leaving the plot as "oh no we're fucked now the machines have found us, go mess 'em up Keanu", you might have something.

The last two taken together have a decent enough plot but it's so badly and confusingly told it takes multiple watches to figure out that it literally just is "the machines have found our base so we're screwed; Neo is just something that happens when the machines leave the program running too long, time for a hard reset which involves deleting all the humans; the multiple Smiths are a virus that's going to take down the machines; Neo is the only thing that can defeat the Smiths; let's make a deal"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 10, 2021, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: 13 schoolyards on August 10, 2021, 07:39:08 AM
If you could somehow edit the last two into one average-length film focusing on the good bits

There are quite a few fan edits around that aim to do just that. I can't say I've bothered to watch any of them, but they're out there.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:09:38 AM
Quote from: Chollis on August 10, 2021, 07:33:37 AM
The Merovingian and motorway sequence alone elevate it above a 6/10, come on now.

Take the motorway sequence.  There's no sense of where they are trying to get to, or how much of that distance is left.  It's arbitrarily endless until it stops, or Neo flies in to save them.  Until then, more and more consequence-free fight/dance sequences are inserted.

It's an issue throughout both of the Matrix sequels that you never really feel how long things should last.  Endless Agent Smiths until Neo flies away.  The metal squid things attacking Zion, and they're in those power loaders shooting them - you never know how many squids they've killed and how many are left.  Which would be fine if it was crafted properly but the scene lasts about seven years and all you can focus on is the present moment, which is boring grey stuff smacking around the screen. 
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:14:00 AM
For me the only way to watch the Matrix sequels now is with the critics commentaries from the DVD box set turned on.  Unfortunately they almost dry up before the end of the third film, but there are enough amusing comments and digs to carry you through.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: madhair60 on August 10, 2021, 08:19:36 AM
I like the sequels and I wish more major Hollywood films were like them
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:25:40 AM
Also, take the ghostly twins from the second film.  We are only just getting used to their powers when we see them in a car explosion.  Later on, we realise they haven't come back into the film.  So the explosion killed them?  Was that meant to be clear at the time?  We'd seen them escaping all aspects of physical reality until then, warping through cars and avoiding knife stabs, and then they were in a fire and it looked like they were rising out of it.

All it felt like was loads of ideas being crammed into the film and then being left or forgotten once they were no longer as cool to have around.  I fully assumed the ghostly twins would be back in the third film after only being set up in the second.


The two agents who smashed lorries into each other never came back after that either.  Who knew.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:30:24 AM
The Wachowskis revealed fairly recently that the Matrix was intended as trans allegory.  I didn't know until I watched this video, which I am only part-way through:

https://youtu.be/M0VnYcMHuDc
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on August 09, 2021, 09:23:01 PM
Having said that, there's a lot to enjoy in both the sequels - nowhere near the first, but cool characters, great design, some good action. Just not the pleasure of Keanu discovering everything was a lie and he could do anything he wanted.

There seemed to be a lot more potential at the end of the first film that was never really acknowledged in the sequels.  Neo was seeing Matrix code and was able to take apart the physical reality facing him.  In the final moments of the first film, that process happened to involve dissolving the threat of the bullets fired at him, as well as transcending the need for physical fighting, opting instead to launch himself into Smith to kill him.  And then, kind of as a gag at the end, he flew off into the sky.

The flying annoyed me, because I felt that it involved accepting physical distance within the Matrix that we had seen Neo transcending.  I felt using his mind to draw places towards him, essentially teleporting himself, would have been more in line with his progress, but I understood the flying looked cool as a final gag, like the flying Delorean at the end of the first Back to the Future.


The problem came with the sequels, when the Wachowskis decided that films two and three should continue to focus on Neo's journey.  But we had already had the full form of the hero's journey in the first film, and he was transcending physical reality by the end of that.  He should have been a myth by the start of Matrix Reloaded - a godly figure referenced away from the main action, no longer accessible to the mere mortals that we'd be spending time with. 

But they wanted to continue Neo's journey, so they took what we'd witnessed him achieve at the end of the first film:  seeing Matrix code, stopping bullets in thin air, and flying, and they made these three things his powers.  His only powers.  The notion that he had transcended everything else was only in my head now:  he was back to fighting agents with his hands and feet which, by the way, Morpheus and everyone else could also do, for reasons that were never addressed.

So it felt like the sequels never connected with the first film, for me.  They certainly were not intended from the start as the producers would go on to claim.  If they'd been planned from the start, they wouldn't have put Jennifer in the car.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 10, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Quote from: C_Larence on August 09, 2021, 11:08:15 PM<although I'd played Enter The Matrix on PS2, which I believe takes place during Reloaded)

Yeah, IIRC there's a bit in some mission briefing where they tell one of the rebels that she needs to blow up a nuclear power plant, and it all sounds very exciting, but then the film just cuts to her watching the plant explode from a distance - because her mission was actually in the video game. But most of the people in our audience didn't know that, and the cinema burst into uproarious laughter at the anticlimactic cut.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 10:05:20 AM
Quote from: Mister Six on August 10, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Yeah, IIRC there's a bit in some mission briefing where they tell one of the rebels that she needs to blow up a nuclear power plant, and it all sounds very exciting, but then the film just cuts to her watching the plant explode from a distance - because her mission was actually in the video game. But most of the people in our audience didn't know that, and the cinema burst into uproarious laughter at the anticlimactic cut.

Is this the game that explains things like why Morpheus lands on the car of someone he recognises during the motorway chase scene?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on August 10, 2021, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: Blinder Data on August 09, 2021, 05:17:53 PM
They introduced way too many interesting concepts (multiple Agent Smiths, Neo/the One as a repeatable programmed event, Zion itself) when one would have sufficed.

Yes, and nobody's even mentioned Bane/Smith or "The Architect" yet. The latter particularly seeming like needless exposition that completely slowed down the story as things were starting to ramp up.

RFV summed up my other thoughts, it essentially just becomes a superhero movie where Neo predictably has the specific power to do something exactly at the right moment to save the day, but only having built up sufficient peril first. Of course he should be able to teleport himself to a specific location instead of having to fly harder than he ever has before. Or just fly away right at the start of the multi-Agent Smith fight to save himself the bother. Oh, phew, he caught Morpheus just in time. Oh, phew, he caught Trinity just in time. Oh, she's fatally wounded, except oh no wait Neo can pull the bullet out now. Wasn't that handy.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
There seemed to be a lot more potential at the end of the first film that was never really acknowledged in the sequels. 

[...]


The problem came with the sequels, when the Wachowskis decided that films two and three should continue to focus on Neo's journey.  But we had already had the full form of the hero's journey in the first film, and he was transcending physical reality by the end of that.  He should have been a myth by the start of Matrix Reloaded - a godly figure referenced away from the main action, no longer accessible to the mere mortals that we'd be spending time with. 

Yes - I remember thinking, at the time, that it would have been a lot more interesting what they ended up doing with Neo what The Force Awakens did with Luke Skywalker, where it's the hero's fucked off and we're not sure what he's up to. And I thought there was a really interesting, obvious line of enquiry that the sequels could have taken but didn't, which is: now that Neo is God and he can rescue everyone from The Matrix, should he? There's that guy who just wants to stay inside and eat steak all day, and actually that's a pretty reasonable take on the whole situation, isn't it? etc etc.

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:30:24 AM
The Wachowskis revealed fairly recently that the Matrix was intended as trans allegory.  I didn't know until I watched this video, which I am only part-way through:

https://youtu.be/M0VnYcMHuDc

This is unkind of me but I don't really believe they intended this at the time, even if they say they did.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 10, 2021, 11:48:04 AM
It seemed really obvious after the first film that the big conflict in any future films should have revolved around whether people wanted to live in a perfect world that was totally made up, or in a shitty world that happened to be the real one. I guess they couldn't figure out a way to illustrate that conflict using kung fu so it was totally ignored.

The other obvious angle the sequels ignored was the whole "layers of reality" thing that was such a big part of the first film. While waiting for the sequels there was a lot of speculation (or just discussion amongst my mates) about how they were going to have to pull off even more "you thought this was reality? Fool!" twists to deliver the same thrills as the first film, and they just... didn't bother. The crap burnt sky future is reality, live with it.

I know the sequels are a mess story-wise and nobody (rightly) likes the hippy orgy scenes and half the story takes place off in video games everyone's forgotten about now, but I think a big part of the problem with the follow ups is that they just left out or ignored a lot of the angles that made the first film so much fun to think about afterwards.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on August 10, 2021, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: Dex Sawash on August 10, 2021, 01:07:48 AM
The first one is also shit

Glad I'm not the only one. I thought they were alright at the time when I was an infant but looking back they do seem to be oddly dated for the time, effectively a more po-faced version of dystopian scifi films that had come a few years earlier.

I think many who like The Matrix will see this as typical Vice contrarianism, but personally I think most of the criticisms are reasonably fair:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/7b7kje/the-matrix-is-dated-and-embarrassing
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
This is unkind of me but I don't really believe they intended this at the time, even if they say they did.

I don't think that's necessarily an unkind view - after all, they argued when they were producing the sequels that three films were always intended from the very beginning, which as I've already addressed doesn't ring true.  They formed that narrative when they wanted to communicate the value of their new position.

On the above basis, my feeling is that the fourth film will be a much more overt trans allegory, and framing the first three Matrix films in this way will help to knock back any criticisms (from predictable idiots) that this approach is intrusive and flown in from nowhere. 

And there's nothing wrong with this, however I do think the value of the first film, at least, comes from the way that Neo seems to find or perceive himself as an outsider generally rather than specifically.  Neo's journey appeals very broadly to anyone who feels different or outside social, cultural or political norms, and also quite naturally to a teenage mindset of feeling more 'awake' than everyone else.  This made the film accessible and appealing in a general sense, and while filmmakers can always have their own personal interpretation of the themes they have set in motion, the interpretations of audience members become equally valid once that film has been released to the public.

I am reminded of how annoying the directors' cut of Donnie Darko was, precisely because it took Richard Kelly's very personal understanding of the film and narrowed its possible interpretations down to his own reading.  I can see the artistic merit of doing this, and when it comes to trans allegory I can absolutely appreciate the value of raising awareness of specific themes that writers and directors wish to make forefront, but I suppose the skill lies in keeping allegories open and ambiguous so that more general audiences can still read what they want in any final film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 02:23:39 PM
Yes I think that is all reasonable. Good Work Replies From View!!

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
Neo's journey appeals very broadly to anyone who feels different or outside social, cultural or political norms, and also quite naturally to a teenage mindset of feeling more 'awake' than everyone else.

There were loads of films like that in the 90s.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on August 10, 2021, 02:59:21 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:30:24 AM
The Wachowskis revealed fairly recently that the Matrix was intended as trans allegory.  I didn't know until I watched this video, which I am only part-way through:

https://youtu.be/M0VnYcMHuDc

i've been told this for years but always been highly doubtful this was their actual intention or wether it actually works without huuuuuuge leaps of faith

edit: ah popcorn beat me to it. good points tho, replies
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 10, 2021, 03:45:31 PM
Marketing was good for the first one was good in that somehow I saw it in the cinema without having a clue what it was about.

Just watched that highway chase and it's like a spoof/cartoon/watching somebody else play a boring video game
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 10, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
I can't be bothered watching a nearly two hour long video about it right now, but it being a trans allegory doesn't seem like much of a stretch. The end product could be read as a metaphor for any number of marginalised groups - the "Mr Anderson" "My name... is Neil!" bit works as easily for slave names as it does for trans identity - but with the Wachowskis both being trans women it makes sense for that to be their inspiration. I once heard that the blonde woman in the first film was supposed to have been played by a man in the real world scenes.

Anyway. The sequels. I agree with whomever said the main problem was that they were one film's worth of actual story, padded out with whatever crap the Wachowskis wanted to include. I'm not sure you could even say they do much in the way of world building. I think the most we really get (aside from that embarrassing rave scene) is that the Verymingian's henchmen are supernatural creatures, but that just translates into more blokes for Neo to fight - they just wear douchier suits than the agents.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 10, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
I can't be bothered watching a nearly two hour long video about it right now, but it being a trans allegory doesn't seem like much of a stretch. The end product could be read as a metaphor for any number of marginalised groups - the "Mr Anderson" "My name... is Neil!" bit works as easily for slave names as it does for trans identity - but with the Wachowskis both being trans women it makes sense for that to be their inspiration. I once heard that the blonde woman in the first film was supposed to have been played by a man in the real world scenes.

Apparently also Switch was originally planned to change gender between being in and out of the Matrix, which is a nice idea.

Anyway, it's:


"Neil...."

"My name.... is Barry Admin!"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 06:36:59 PM
One sad thing about the sequels is how the Oracle is suddenly spouting all the same pseudo-intellectual pretentious sixth-form essay bullshit as all the other characters.  "You will choose a choice that you will have chosen and why you came here to find out why you came here."  Why don't you fucking talk properly.  In the first film she was comparably relatable and down to earth, and especially welcome for that reason.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 10, 2021, 07:46:22 PM
One fun thing about the sequels is how Hugo Weaving just goes for broke. He was already the best character in the first film, like a Terminator who's gone insane. Along come the sequels and he's hamming it up for all he's worth (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNkrF43SZEU).

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
Apparently also Switch was originally planned to change gender between being in and out of the Matrix, which is a nice idea.
Switch. That was her name. I forgot because of how dull the supporting cast were. Even the name plays into the transgender interpretation.

Quote from: surreal on August 09, 2021, 06:35:28 PM
Re-watching Blade... after watching The Matrix also highlights how many things occur in all those movies, Blade especially is similar in many ways.  Not saying rip-off as it's all Sci-Fi but it does make for interesting viewing in hindsight
I think it's just that both of them were riffing on/ripping off the same set of influences - anime, Hong Kong movies, that one very '90s style of sunglasses. There is a (possibly guff) story about the Wachowskis pitching The Matrix by showing the producers a clip from Ghost in the Shell and saying "We want to do that in live action."
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on August 10, 2021, 08:51:39 PM
The animatrix was good in bits though eh?

I was so disappointed by the 2 sequels, I watched them several times to try and get something out of them.

I was very invested in the original film and remember reading endlessly about it after seeing it, and was even interested in what they did with the plot following the films in the MMO game they made (which I never even set eyes on). The CGI/Effects aint half dodgy for the real world tentacle robot bits though, always took me out of it a bit after the practical effects were so great when he comes out of the pod.

Really don't rate them as directors though, think it was a bit of a fluke.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 09:11:35 PM
The new Matrix film is being co-written with David Mitchell, who has written some of my favourite novels, but I thought his more recent books were schlock. The Wachowskis did the adaption of Cloud Atlas, which is terrible. I do not anticipate great things.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 10, 2021, 09:42:19 PM
Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
This is unkind of me but I don't really believe they intended this at the time, even if they say they did.

The Switch character being originally intended to change gender in and out of the Matrix is something I can buy into being true but the film as a whole whilst I can see the creatures being trans playing a part in its nature doesnt seem like its intended to be that specific.

Honestly I think with the sequel/s that might have been a more worthwhile direction to go and more within the creators abilties. A high concept sci fi story beyond a heroes journey that had some substance to it was really something they didnt seem equipped for yet I think Bound did actually manage to have some substance to the lesbian story beyond just being just a titillating setup. Using the pull they had from the originals sucess to make a sequel with a new lead character in that position seems like a much more interesting prospect to me, albeit one I'm sure much of the fanbase would have loathed.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 10, 2021, 09:55:14 PM
I wonder whether taking four years to make a sequel (two, in fact, and there's that problem once more with back-to-back sequels) didn't help. When I saw The Matrix almost blind in 1999[nb]As in knowing virtually nothing about it, shut up[/nb], I was single and had just moved to the big city[nb]London[/nb]. By the time I went to see Reloaded, I had fallen in love, gotten married and moved back out of the big city. And taking MrsMoth to see it was so embarrassing I never even thought about broaching the subject of going to see Revolutions the next year. The fact that it took four to five years to make such disappointing sequels... that are more like a pair rushed out in a hurry. Maybe it's impossible to ever make a good sequel to this, because it depended so much on the mystery and the bullet-timey spectacle first time round. And yet - The Matrix itself stands up to repeated views. Well it does for me anyway.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: evilcommiedictator on August 11, 2021, 12:15:03 AM
Ehh you all need to watch the film with the Philosophers' commentary with Cornell West and another guy in it - they made me appreciate a lot more of the nuance in it, for example, Morpheus goes from a blind zealot into a doubter to having his faith rewarded.

The Matrix - revolutionary graphical effects and a cool green setting with the standard journey of the hero
Matrix Reloaded - We've setup this hero, but he's not going to win. We're going to reveal him "winning" was part of a bigger plan, where he loses. Also the Animatrix helps understand what is at stake. New revolutionary* graphical effects give us a substandard CGI Neo
Matrix Revolutions - Now we have big set piece action sequences to resolve the story but except it's going to be a yin/yang ending instead of the heroes winning and therefore everyone will hate it.

The best explainer of the above from the directors in the game Path Of Neo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgg7FdznyQg
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 11, 2021, 12:35:00 AM
the dragonball z shit in the last one was fucking embarrassing
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 11, 2021, 08:15:51 AM
Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 09:11:35 PM
The new Matrix film is being co-written with David Mitchell, who has written some of my favourite novels, but I thought his more recent books were schlock. The Wachowskis did the adaption of Cloud Atlas, which is terrible. I do not anticipate great things.

Cloud Atlas was great. Probably my favourite thing the Wachowskis have done.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 08:46:05 AM
At least it's not Robert Webb
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 11, 2021, 10:11:43 AM
Never saw Cloud Atlas but I very much enjoyed Lana Wachowski's ridiculous Sense8, which had a great international cast (including Sylvester McCoy!). If they draw on some of those actors for the new film then i'd be interested.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

I didn't mind Reloaded at the time, but nearly 20 years on it clearly is a massive flabby stupid mess. Revolutions is just standard action bollocks. Both are a joke compared to the still fantastic first one

Animatrix I remember being genuinely decent, with interesting ideas.

Does anyone know why there's only one Wachowski sister working on the new one?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: madhair60 on August 11, 2021, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AMvery good fan-edit

oxymoron, that
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 11, 2021, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

I didn't mind Reloaded at the time, but nearly 20 years on it clearly is a massive flabby stupid mess. Revolutions is just standard action bollocks. Both are a joke compared to the still fantastic first one

Animatrix I remember being genuinely decent, with interesting ideas.

Does anyone know why there's only one Wachowski sister working on the new one?

Really I think most of the Zion plot could have been some off screen countdown of the machines drilling a giant bomb down to them.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 11:31:05 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

But to be fair, he does in the original version of the sequels anyway.



The most ludicrous addition to the main cast is that wiener kid who shrieks wanton sycophancy at Neo whenever he sees him.  At the end of the third film space is inexplicably given to him rather than Morpheus:  "Neo has achieved it!  He's managed to stop the machines and now the war is over!!" or whatever he says when the squids stop whizzing around for three seconds.

At this point in the critics commentary someone drily adds "He seems quite sure about it."



Best thing about the sequels is that commentary.  You should check it out.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 12:08:23 PM
Quote from: greenman on August 11, 2021, 11:24:09 AM
Really I think most of the Zion plot could have been some off screen countdown of the machines drilling a giant bomb down to them.

A countdown is more than we got in the sequels themselves, which gave us no sense at all of how much closer the drill was getting, or how long it was until doomsday.  On that basis alone it's fundamentally stupid storytelling.

Start of the second film:  the machines are coming to get us

Start of the third film:  the machines are coming to get us


In terms of what supposedly matters to Zion, you could skip the second film.  On a narrative level what does Matrix Reloaded actually achieve?  Neo is no less clueless after the whole of the second film, either.


This is the thing when it comes to cutting out useless stuff from the sequels - once you pick at the loose threads there's nothing you can't unravel.  Everyone talks about removing the leaden Zion stuff, but none of the fight/dance sequences or the car chase or interminably static conversations mean or achieve anything either.  They are the very definition of a waste of time.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: ErnestTakadichi on August 11, 2021, 01:10:05 PM
"Hmm, upgrades."

Never have two words so utterly, thoroughly and irreveocably torpedoed a film/franchise/cinematic universe.

I've never really bought into the "depth" it supposedly has, either.

"This is shit."

"Ah, but don't you get it? This bit references a key piece of 5th century philosophy!"

"Oh, OK. I like it now."
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 11, 2021, 02:00:33 PM
The thing that sticks with me after repeated rewatches of the sequels hoping they'll magically somehow become decent films is that so much of the stuff that is puzzling or pointless within the story (whether the story itself is pointless is another matter) is actually explained - just in a tossed-off way that seems intentionally obtuse. It's like they totally forgot how to tell a story between the first and second (and third) films and just assumed as long as the information was in the film somewhere people would pick up on it.

Or maybe I'm just thick. Either way it took me multiple viewings to realise that most of the sentinel action early in the third film takes place in a dock that's miles above where everyone lives, which is why there's two separate "oh no, the drills are almost through to where we are!" sequences.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: ErnestTakadichi on August 11, 2021, 01:10:05 PM
"Hmm, upgrades."

Never have two words so utterly, thoroughly and irreveocably torpedoed a film/franchise/cinematic universe.

YOU BLOCKED MY ATTACK, WOAH.  BETTER GET THE OTHER HAND OUT FROM BEHIND MY BACK THEN.  Not torpedoing anything, but it feels clunkingly part of a contrived effort to reset Neo back to his pre-enlightened state so the sequels can be about his journey.

It's a way of countering the fact that Neo should be able to obliterate these agents immediately but isn't able to.  They have been upgraded (in some unspecified and indeterminate way), so he is regressed to fisticuffs that we thought he'd grown out of by the end of the first film.

They've been upgraded, yet Morpheus is able to dance cheek-to-cheek with them as well.  It was established in the first film that Neo's ability to fight back against agents was part of what made him The One.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 11, 2021, 02:16:06 PM
I am the One.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Gulftastic on August 11, 2021, 02:31:47 PM
The films would have been more interesting if instead of Neo being the One, it turned out to be Brian Eno.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SteveDave on August 11, 2021, 04:02:05 PM
I remember seeing the second one in a near empty cinema (an early bird £3 special) one morning and laughing my head off (doing a derisive snort) at the "DUN DUN DUN!!!" ending when they wheeled Neo and the disguised evil fellow next to each other.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: SteveDave on August 11, 2021, 04:02:05 PM
I remember seeing the second one in a near empty cinema (an early bird £3 special) one morning and laughing my head off (doing a derisive snort) at the "DUN DUN DUN!!!" ending when they wheeled Neo and the disguised evil fellow next to each other.

Yes that was a groan-inducer.  No effort to create a substantial cliffhanger because they expected their audience would return automatically.


It was immensely presumptuous that viewers would remember that character from his one scene earlier in the film, especially since he was now upside down.  I remember the first time I saw Reloaded, I was already fatigued by the film and I couldn't grasp that final moment at all.  I didn't recognise that upside down face and couldn't ascertain whether we were meant to know, whether it was just me failing to follow it because I was so tired.  And the music sting absolutely conveyed that we were meant to know what was going on.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 04:13:11 PM
One thing I never really understood about the Matrix sequels was why multiple Smiths were no more of a threat than just the one of them.  It seemed that every time Smith copied himself the total number of them didn't grow in power, yet in the third film only one Smith fought Neo and they were evenly matched again. 

Conceptually it seems so confused within itself, like it doesn't know what it wants to be, yet I can't believe the Wachowskis failed to think this through on some level.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 06:55:16 PM
I remember lots of laffs in the audience I was in when, in Revolutions, there was this big action sequence, then it cut to Neo still sat on his arse at the train station, in total silence, looking really gormless
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 11, 2021, 07:18:24 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 04:13:11 PM
One thing I never really understood about the Matrix sequels was why multiple Smiths were no more of a threat than just the one of them.  It seemed that every time Smith copied himself the total number of them didn't grow in power, yet in the third film only one Smith fought Neo and they were evenly matched again. 

Conceptually it seems so confused within itself, like it doesn't know what it wants to be, yet I can't believe the Wachowskis failed to think this through on some level.

The one Smith was I believe the taken over Oracle and so somehow more powerful?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 07:35:44 PM

I assume everyone else in the UK had to put up with groups cunts suddenly appearing and mincing around the place wearing long leather overcoats, small dark glasses and impenetrable expressions on their faces.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: greenman on August 11, 2021, 07:18:24 PM
The one Smith was I believe the taken over Oracle and so somehow more powerful?

Oh was the code not copied over to all of them?


That's quite funny then because it means each of the Smiths would have had traits of whoever they'd taken over, and so some of them would probably tend towards quite mundane office jobs or leading crafting workshops.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 07:56:28 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 11, 2021, 07:35:44 PM
I assume everyone else in the UK had to put up with groups cunts suddenly appearing and mincing around the place wearing long leather overcoats, small dark glasses and impenetrable expressions on their faces.

Yeah, this happened.  It was The Blues Brothers all over again.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: bakabaka on August 11, 2021, 08:07:17 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 11, 2021, 07:35:44 PM
I assume everyone else in the UK had to put up with groups cunts suddenly appearing and mincing around the place wearing long leather overcoats, small dark glasses and impenetrable expressions on their faces.
Wonderful to watch them trying to walk on windy days as their lightweight, knockoff coats acted as sails, tried to trip them and slapped anyone passing in the balls.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 08:10:15 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 07:55:34 PM
Oh was the code not copied over to all of them?

That's quite funny then because it means each of the Smiths would have had traits of whoever they'd taken over, and so some of them would probably tend towards quite mundane office jobs or leading crafting workshops.
It also implies that the Oracle could fly around, doing kung fu fighting.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 08:41:53 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 08:10:15 PM
It also implies that the Oracle could fly around, doing kung fu fighting.

Also Smith was already talking about what had been foreseen and stuff being inevitable before he absorbed the Oracle.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 08:48:20 PM
He absorbed the Ceefax first.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 08:59:47 PM
Another funny bit was when during their big final fight in the rain, there's slo-mo of Neo punching through a raindrop and it connecting with Smith's face, who does a brilliant gurn

Best film ever
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Do we get to blame The Matrix for the proliferation of Clubbed to Death?

Thanks to this thread I'm rewatching Reloaded right now.  An exciting opening is really ruined by all the exposition, shitty CGI and the bit where he flies off.  Should have just cut it after the ground rippling - that in itself served as a signpost that Neo has no mastered the matrix.

Remind me - is the the one with the sort of underground illegal rave scene that goes on forever?

Ugggggh and that fucking drippy kid who idolises Neo.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Yes. Will be with you shortly. Do enjoy, Sir
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:04:23 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Yes. Will be with you shortly. Do enjoy, Sir

Does this mean you're going to watch too?  If so, confirm and I'll pause and wait for you.  HOW EXCITING.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:08:25 PM

This homecoming schmaltz is like fucking steampunk neighbours.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:10:45 PM

I wonder what is looks like on Blu-ray or UHD.  Some of the physical sets and green screen looks as hokey as fuck.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:15:08 PM

Oh no, it's the rave scene.  It would be far better if someone dubbed over The Levellers or the Ozric Tentacles.  This is utterly pointless and completely terrible.  You could probably cut the last 12 minutes and lose nothing.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 09:16:42 PM
It's to show you the stakes, maaaaan. THERES REAL PEOPLE DOWN THERE MAAAAAN!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 11, 2021, 09:21:26 PM
And the cast of the hit West End show Stomp!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on August 11, 2021, 09:22:24 PM
Quote from: Gulftastic on August 11, 2021, 02:31:47 PM
The films would have been more interesting if instead of Neo being the One, it turned out to be Brian Blessed
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:23:05 PM
I had forgotten how much I did and still do despise all the people in Zion, and how much punishment they deserve for displacing the native Doozers from Fraggle Rock and stealing their home.  I'm totally rooting for the machines to wipe them out at this point.

40 minutes in and absolutely fuck all has moved on from what happened in the first 3 minutes.

This is Star Trek The Next Generation of the Dump.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:29:01 PM

The bongo music in the bit when Neo fights the Seraph or whatever the fuck he's called sounds like the Necromancy bit in Vic and Bob's Cottage Cheese song.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 09:29:28 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Should have just cut it after the ground rippling - that in itself served as a signpost that Neo has no mastered the matrix.

What new thing had he mastered?  He had already done a zen breathing wall-flexing thing in the first film.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q9M7PbmLtAA/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:35:41 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 09:29:28 PM
What new thing had he mastered?  He had already done a zen breathing wall-flexing thing in the first film.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q9M7PbmLtAA/maxresdefault.jpg)

You're right.  Mastering is not the right word.  I think what I mean, is that the ripple is just a reminder that he is really powerful, just as it was in the first film.  It didn't need all the silly flying abaht.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 09:42:12 PM
What are the Zionions even rebelling against? Even if the world outside it wasn't completely horrible, what's so terrible about living in the Matrix? Neo goes clubbing in the first film, so it's not like Zion wins any points for the rave scene. He freaks out about being used as a battery, but it doesn't actually seem to do anyone any real harm (although the Soylent Green-esque drip feed is minging).

Joey Pants had the right idea, I reckon.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:48:35 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 09:42:12 PM
What are the Zionions even rebelling against? Even if the world outside it wasn't completely horrible, what's so terrible about living in the Matrix? Neo goes clubbing in the first film, so it's not like Zion wins any points for the rave scene. He freaks out about being used as a battery, but it doesn't actually seem to do anyone any real harm (although the Soylent Green-esque drip feed is minging).

Joey Pants had the right idea, I reckon.

As much as I loved the first film, this was exactly my conclusion.

The fight scene with all the Smiths is excruciatingly shit.  It's clear that it's one of the first ideas they came up with and then shoehorned it in.  It doesn't even count for anything as he just flies off at the end.  And it goes on for nearly 10 minutes!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 10:29:46 PM

The freeway chase scene is much better than I remembered, thrilling even, even though it's used an a excuse for even more unnecessary fight scenes.  The criticism that there is no destination is a fair one, but I think the premise that they are getting to the phone is enough. 
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 11, 2021, 09:48:35 PM
It doesn't even count for anything as he just flies off at the end.  And it goes on for nearly 10 minutes!

Which scenes do count for anything in the Matrix sequels?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 11, 2021, 10:29:46 PM
The freeway chase scene is much better than I remembered, thrilling even, even though it's used an a excuse for even more unnecessary fight scenes.  The criticism that there is no destination is a fair one, but I think the premise that they are getting to the phone is enough.

A good version of the scene would involve a sense of destination, geography, anything to tell you how much they have left of their journey.  Compare it with every occasion in the first film where someone needs to get to a phone, and it's handled so expertly.

As one of the critics in the critics commentary says:  "Now there are moments that have impact, but fundamentally, where are they going?"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 10:32:28 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Which scenes do count for anything in the Matrix sequels?

I'll get back to you when I find one.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 10:36:17 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 11, 2021, 10:32:14 PM
A good version of the scene would involve a sense of destination, geography, anything to tell you how much they have left of their journey.

As one of the critics in the critics commentary says:  "Now there are moments that have impact, but fundamentally, where are they going?"

I totally agree with that.  It would take a good scene and make it great.  I think that this criticism can be applied to virtually every scene in the film.  It all just add to my theory that the Ws conceived the ideas for the big scenes before there was any plot and then tried to place in them in the mess they had come up with.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:53 PM
I remember reading a hilariously prudish review of the Zion rave/Neo-Trinity sex scene. Trying to recall where it was...

All I remember from Revolutions was wondering why the quality of the video file I had was so bad. I got my answer just before the file ended, when somebody stood up just as the credits rolled. Yes, it was a cam job.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:57:28 PM
Those cam recordings are great though, cos all the unintentional laughter was captured in them. Wish I'd kept them!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 11, 2021, 11:03:49 PM
Yeah, I just want a screen grab of that last second of the file! I think I've long since thrown the disk out...
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 11, 2021, 11:09:38 PM

Well.  Basically in the 2 hours of Revolutions nothing happens.  It ends a literally little bit past where it starts and the in between is taken up with makes you think type exposition talking in rooms before we get to the agent Smith and freeway scenes which are dropped like bricks into the soup.  To be fair it's not as bad as I remembered and there are few good action scenes and moments, but as an overall film it's a mess.

Does anyone fancy a group watch of revolutions?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: chveik on August 11, 2021, 11:20:43 PM
what's it about?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 11, 2021, 11:35:46 PM
Talking about Revolutions, I can still remember hearing this (https://youtu.be/UE9VKZUoOf8) for the first time in 1988, when my friend Joey in the room next door in our dorm got the CD and played it at high volume in his high-end stereo system, far more vividly than I can remember watching any part of Matrix Revolutions in 2004.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Twit 2 on August 12, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
The sequels are incoherent tosh. The architect's speech is some of the worst dialogue to ever feature in a film. I remember being both astonished and offended by its utter stupidity and smug contempt for the audience.

The 1st film is OK. Derivative, philosophically empty and with mostly awful dialogue; on the other hand, it is at least coherent, stylish, technically well-made and memorable—a veritable masterpiece compared to the abominations that followed.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 12, 2021, 05:27:17 AM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 11, 2021, 09:42:12 PM
What are the Zionions even rebelling against? Even if the world outside it wasn't completely horrible, what's so terrible about living in the Matrix? Neo goes clubbing in the first film, so it's not like Zion wins any points for the rave scene. He freaks out about being used as a battery, but it doesn't actually seem to do anyone any real harm (although the Soylent Green-esque drip feed is minging).

Joey Pants had the right idea, I reckon.

IIRC the final moment of the final film is basically "well, now humans will have the right to choose between the Matrix and the real world". Cut to that drippy Neo-worshipping kid wandering around a completely empty Zion calling out "...Hello? ...Anyone?"

(I think the sequels really tried to make it that it wasn't so much The Matrix itself that was evil, more that humans were being enslaved in it without being given the choice to participate. Which is fair enough as a point, but as a good vs evil plot driver it's pretty weak - the bad guys are saying "get in the battery" and the good guys are saying "you can get in the battery but only if you really want to")
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows

Expand
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: 13 schoolyards on August 12, 2021, 05:27:17 AM
IIRC the final moment of the final film is basically "well, now humans will have the right to choose between the Matrix and the real world". Cut to that drippy Neo-worshipping kid wandering around a completely empty Zion calling out "...Hello? ...Anyone?"

The final scene is the Architect, the new version of the Oracle and the family from the subway station in a garden, and the little girl is somehow making a cheesy CGI sunset happen in remembrance of Neo.

And there's a really awful slow motion smile from the Oracle that seems to last most of the film's running time.  She just kind of smiles and turns and begins to walk away but it's presented like an episode of Jam.



I'd so love that wiener kid to be alone in a giant echoing Zion though.  And I've only just realised you were joking when you suggested it, but never mind.  If they'd stuck it in after the credits it would have been the best part of the Matrix sequels.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blinder Data on August 12, 2021, 09:46:40 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows

I think there were some worthwhile concepts in the sequels, Animatrix, etc. The problem is in their execution.

A philosophically interesting story and broader universe (for Hollywood standards) does not make up crap characters, dialogue, plotting, CGI - plus everything else that's shit about the films.

They are frankly poorly constructed films and no amount of after-the-fact contextualising by its makers will make up for that. The old political maxim "if you're explaining, you're losing" works with films too.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows

The Animatrix pieces clearly serve a world-building function, and that's great but the movies themselves should have been standalone.  I remember in 2003 some of the promotional stuff saying "and to get the most out of this movie you will want to immerse yourself in a PlayStation 2 game".  It was bad enough as a promotional line and it certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny nearly two decades later.  The films have holes in them and it doesn't matter if an animation series and a computer game put content in some of those holes.  Just make films without holes.


Quote from: Mister Six on August 10, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Yeah, IIRC there's a bit in some mission briefing where they tell one of the rebels that she needs to blow up a nuclear power plant, and it all sounds very exciting, but then the film just cuts to her watching the plant explode from a distance - because her mission was actually in the video game. But most of the people in our audience didn't know that, and the cinema burst into uproarious laughter at the anticlimactic cut.

"Most of you haven't played Enter The Matrix and it shows"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 12, 2021, 10:16:49 AM
The bit that got the biggest laugh in the cinema when I saw it was in the third film where they crash the spaceship and blind Neo is all "let's go Trinity!" and she says "I can't come with you Neo" and he says "Why?!" and it cuts to her impaled on a giant girder. Unintentional visual comedy there.

Another thing I like is that in the first film they establish that Neo is The One and his powers include:

- Being really fast
- Stopping bullets in mid-air
- Being good at fighting agents
- Seeing all the code
- Flying

And it suggests that he can basically do anything now. But in the sequels it turns out that those are literally the only new things he can do, they couldn't come up with any new stuff.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 12, 2021, 10:16:49 AM
Another thing I like is that in the first film they establish that Neo is The One and his powers include:

- Being really fast
- Stopping bullets in mid-air
- Being good at fighting agents
- Seeing all the code
- Flying

And it suggests that he can basically do anything now. But in the sequels it turns out that those are literally the only new things he can do, they couldn't come up with any new stuff.

For me it wasn't so much that they "couldn't come up with any new stuff", but they intentionally shrunk down what had been implied at the end of the first film:  in order to make sequels including Neo, what was originally conveying "Neo has transcended the Matrix" was re-interpreted as "Neo has gained the above powers".  Strictly speaking the difference was only a matter of reading, but nobody following the themes of the first film thinks at the end that Neo has merely gained a bunch of powers.

See also my previous post:

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
There seemed to be a lot more potential at the end of the first film that was never really acknowledged in the sequels.  Neo was seeing Matrix code and was able to take apart the physical reality facing him.  In the final moments of the first film, that process happened to involve dissolving the threat of the bullets fired at him, as well as transcending the need for physical fighting, opting instead to launch himself into Smith to kill him.  And then, kind of as a gag at the end, he flew off into the sky.

The flying annoyed me, because I felt that it involved accepting physical distance within the Matrix that we had seen Neo transcending.  I felt using his mind to draw places towards him, essentially teleporting himself, would have been more in line with his progress, but I understood the flying looked cool as a final gag, like the flying Delorean at the end of the first Back to the Future.


The problem came with the sequels, when the Wachowskis decided that films two and three should continue to focus on Neo's journey.  But we had already had the full form of the hero's journey in the first film, and he was transcending physical reality by the end of that.  He should have been a myth by the start of Matrix Reloaded - a godly figure referenced away from the main action, no longer accessible to the mere mortals that we'd be spending time with. 

But they wanted to continue Neo's journey, so they took what we'd witnessed him achieve at the end of the first film:  seeing Matrix code, stopping bullets in thin air, and flying, and they made these three things his powers.  His only powers.  The notion that he had transcended everything else was only in my head now:  he was back to fighting agents with his hands and feet which, by the way, Morpheus and everyone else could also do, for reasons that were never addressed.

So it felt like the sequels never connected with the first film, for me.  They certainly were not intended from the start as the producers would go on to claim.  If they'd been planned from the start, they wouldn't have put Jennifer in the car.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 12, 2021, 10:37:53 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 12, 2021, 10:16:49 AM
The bit that got the biggest laugh in the cinema when I saw it was in the third film where they crash the spaceship and blind Neo is all "let's go Trinity!" and she says "I can't come with you Neo" and he says "Why?!" and it cuts to her impaled on a giant girder. Unintentional visual comedy there.

Haha, yes, that was a good one
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Dex Sawash on August 12, 2021, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows

I've driven a Toyota Matrix and none of you would know if I hadn't told you
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 11:06:06 AM
You wear Neo sequel sunglasses on purpose
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Dex Sawash on August 12, 2021, 11:10:26 AM

And I live.about 300 yards from the Eno River
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 11:27:41 AM
It seems like they were wary of straying too far from the iconic stuff of the first film. Much the same thing happened with The Force in the Star Wars prequels/sequels. Audiences liked the kung fu fighting, they might not be so enthused by Neo waving his hand and turning the agents into owls.

Even so, there was that bald monk kid going all Uri Geller on a spoon in the first film. You'd think that power might have come in handy when baddies in the second film were attacking Neo with swords and whatnot.

Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 10:00:36 AM
"Most of you haven't played Enter The Matrix and it shows"
I have. Aside from the absolutely terrible driving levels, it was good fun.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 11:31:30 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 12, 2021, 10:37:53 AM
Haha, yes, that was a good one

Keanu Reeves' acting is great there as well when he says "oh no".  It's like he's knocked something over in the kitchen and now has to grab a cloth.


That's one thing about the video I shared before:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0VnYcMHuDc

Around 30 minutes in, the video starts talking about the 'vibe' between Neo and Trinity, and finds that the choices of direction and performance present both the characters as lesbians.  In particular there's some focus on Reeves' performance that I've always taken as limitations of his acting ability rather than anything intentional, least of all 'coded'.  But in fairness, I was not expected to read it that way.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
I've just remembered as well how disappointed I was that the business with Smith taking over somebody in the real world merely led to a stowaway scene in the third film.  Making Neo blind in that final act didn't even raise the stakes in any meaningful way.  For me, almost all the ideas that the Wachowskis perceived as throwaway were the ones with potential for expansion.


Also, I love how Reeves doesn't quite know how to perform the hand-out-stopping-things routine when it's something massive.  Just shake your hand a bit more, like it's absorbing the impact, yeah.  And do a face like it's a tiny bit stressful.  That's it, and when we get to the machine city and you're blind, just do that really loads.  Job done, excellent.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 12, 2021, 11:41:40 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 11:31:30 AM
That's one thing about the video I shared before:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0VnYcMHuDc

Around 30 minutes in, the video starts talking about the 'vibe' between Neo and Trinity, and finds that the choices of direction and performance present both the characters as lesbians.  In particular there's some focus on Reeves' performance that I've always taken as limitations of his acting ability rather than anything intentional, least of all 'coded'.  But in fairness, I was not expected to read it that way.

I think this video is fairly silly.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Twit 2 on August 12, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Imagine getting arrested and tried in court and telling the judge they could establish your innocence by playing a computer game. You'd be sent down, and quite right too.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 12:00:32 PM
WHY WOULD YOU SHIP NEW MOTORBIKES WITH FUEL IN THEM

you put a few gallons in cars because you cant move them easily otherwise. But you can just push motorbikes around a dealership. Fucking hell it's so stupid.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
I vaguely mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I would like to ask it as a direct question:  did anyone watching Matrix Reloaded understand, when watching the motorway chase scene, that the two ghostly twins had died when their car exploded?

For me it was entirely unclear because their powers suggested they would survive something like that.  I thoroughly expected them to be returning later in the sequels, and assumed that all we'd seen of them had been set-up for something actually worthwhile.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SweetPomPom on August 12, 2021, 01:12:29 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 12:00:32 PM
WHY WOULD YOU SHIP NEW MOTORBIKES WITH FUEL IN THEM

Spoon rules innit.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
I vaguely mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I would like to ask it as a direct question: did anyone watching Matrix Reloaded understand, when watching the motorway chase scene, that the two ghostly twins had died when their car exploded?

For me it was entirely unclear because their powers suggested they would survive something like that. I thoroughly expected them to be returning later in the sequels, and assumed that all we'd seen of them had been set-up for something actually worthwhile.
Indirect answer: Pretty much everything about the Merovingian feels pointless. The idea of another major faction within the story is interesting, but he's not developed enough to feel like a proper villain or a wildcard element. He doesn't seem to have any particular agenda or affiliation. He tells the heroes to bring him The Oracle's eyes, but (iirc) she doesn't have any bearing on the story at that point, so it doesn't introduce any meaningful stakes. He's just there for that comical cake scene and to give the heroes some henchmen to karate.

Youtube film talker, Patrick H. Willems, does a decent job of rewriting (or outlining, at least) the sequels: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: SweetPomPom on August 12, 2021, 01:12:29 PM
Spoon rules innit.

This would apply to unique individuals like The One, not any old fucker who's escaped from the Matrix.  And 'there is no spoon' would equate to 'there is no physical distance here' - ie they should be able to reach their destination by willing it towards them / teleporting, not faffing about on a highway with a motorbike that they have mentally filled with fuel.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 01:41:34 PM
I watched the scene before I read your comment I think and I was like "oh is this their last scene then?"

I think if they hadn't flown up into the air like fucking Wile E Coyote I wouldn't have had the uncertainty.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 01:51:46 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 01:41:34 PM
I watched the scene before I read your comment I think and I was like "oh is this their last scene then?"

I think if they hadn't flown up into the air like fucking Wile E Coyote I wouldn't have had the uncertainty.

I'd like to probe this certainty, please.  So you ascertained they had been killed and you would have been surprised if they had come back later in the films?

For me yes they had a cartoonish weeeuruurrr flying into the air thing during the explosion, but everything up to that point had indicated that they could float through anything physical.  We had just seen them not being stabbed or shot and warping through cars - if anything the film was still establishing the rules of these creatures, how they existed within the Matrix and what their powers/limitations were.  As with everything else in the sequels there was no communication of the scope of them as a threat - there was nothing defining what needed to be done to defeat them, so they could have been flying away from the explosion, teleporting away from it, returning home to regenerate... any number of things really.

I just remember being surprised during the third film that they hadn't returned, when it seemed like all we got of them in Reloaded was set-up at the very most.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 02:21:25 PM
No I thought they'd propelled into the heavens like Team Rocket and would be coming back. If they'd been consumed completely inside the blast I would understand the narrative was telling me they were dead.

Showy visuals muddling the storytelling. If you show something so obviously unrealistic happening to a pair of bodies I assume it's for a reason that youre trying to tell me something
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 12, 2021, 02:38:44 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 10:34:44 AM
For me it wasn't so much that they "couldn't come up with any new stuff", but they intentionally shrunk down what had been implied at the end of the first film:  in order to make sequels including Neo, what was originally conveying "Neo has transcended the Matrix" was re-interpreted as "Neo has gained the above powers".  Strictly speaking the difference was only a matter of reading, but nobody following the themes of the first film thinks at the end that Neo has merely gained a bunch of powers.

They could have given him something that we hadn't already seen established in the first film. Maybe he could change his appearance, or walk through walls (actually why couldn't he do that? The ghost twins could and surely if anyone in the Matrix can do a thing then he should be able to as well - except the precognition which I could understand being a plot problem).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 02:21:25 PM
No I thought they'd propelled into the heavens like Team Rocket and would be coming back. If they'd been consumed completely inside the blast I would understand the narrative was telling me they were dead.

Showy visuals muddling the storytelling. If you show something so obviously unrealistic happening to a pair of bodies I assume it's for a reason that youre trying to tell me something

Also it wasn't until after the third film ended that I realised no agents had been seen after the motorway chase (apart from Smith who was no longer an agent).  So either there just wasn't room for them in the storytelling with all the new elements being piled in, or we were to suppose the lorry crash killed them.

Again, I was so used to seeing them reappearing, taking over new people, that the idea of them being killed seemed out of nowhere.  I suppose the "dodge this" moment in the first film indicated there were limits to their abilities, but it wasn't entirely clear that if they were killed within a body they couldn't return somewhere else.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on August 12, 2021, 03:37:45 PM
Another thing about the sequels. The effects don't look nearly as good, and have obviously been done in a different way involving less complicated multi camera stuff and more CGI versions of people. There's too much stuffed into them and the effect is just confusing and meaningless. There's nothing in them close to the quality of the lobby scene/morpheus rescue in the first one for example. If you look at where they left off in the first one, there was so much space there to take the story in any direction they wanted, and a really interesting universe and the fact it was as bad as it was is really disappointing. Some of the Animatrix stuff, and maybe even some comic tie ins they did if I remember correctly has some great ideas for stories you can tell within the universe. Particularly enjoy the ones about the history pre-matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 03:59:13 PM
Yes; something particular was being achieved with what they called bullet time.  It was a camera effect, achieving agility of speed and movement with physical cameras around a real physical moment.  It was not merely an aesthetic of slowing things down every few seconds during an action scene, and it especially wasn't about the infinite freedom of camera movement that could be afforded using CGI.  Conflating bullet time into the latter was an egregious step, because the magic of looking at something real - the entire point of the original effect - became lost.

The sequels have a more dated feel to them largely because CGI has moved forward in such leaps and bounds since 2003 (and was destined to, which is why the "we've raised the bar so high there is no bar" promotional boast always had such a hollow ring).  Plus slowing down the action every few seconds becomes truly tiresome very quickly into Reloaded.  They're rarely showing anything when they do it and it starts to feel compulsive.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 03:26:57 PM
Also it wasn't until after the third film ended that I realised no agents had been seen after the motorway chase (apart from Smith who was no longer an agent).  So either there just wasn't room for them in the storytelling with all the new elements being piled in, or we were to suppose the lorry crash killed them.

Again, I was so used to seeing them reappearing, taking over new people, that the idea of them being killed seemed out of nowhere.  I suppose the "dodge this" moment in the first film indicated there were limits to their abilities, but it wasn't entirely clear that if they were killed within a body they couldn't return somewhere else.
The "Dodge this" one reappeared after getting shot, with the corpse reverting to the helicopter pilot, so I assume the lorry crash wouldn't have proved any more fatal. Maybe they'd all been overwritten by Smith.

Speaking of the agents, I like the body horror effect when they possess someone. They don't just match up with whatever stance their host was in, but twist and distort them to fit. It communicates their cold indifference to humanity quite effectively.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 12, 2021, 04:46:42 PM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 12, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
Most of you haven't watched The Animatrix and it shows

We shouldn't have to.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blinder Data on August 12, 2021, 05:30:09 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 01:24:25 PM
Youtube film talker, Patrick H. Willems, does a decent job of rewriting (or outlining, at least) the sequels: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4)

Thanks for this, it was a good watch. His version is much better than the real thing. Funny how some of his suggestions (having Morpheus say the last line instead of the Oracle) are incredibly simple and obvious - the Wachowskis forgot the basics big time.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 12, 2021, 05:45:47 PM
The point about how they managed to lose the magic of the bullet time effect is spot on.

Same for the body horror when people change into agents, it's a great effect, though I think they nicked the effect from Jacob's Ladder - it shits me up in that film to.

For the albino brothers, my take on the explosion was that it was the last we'd be seeing of them - I too thought of Wile E coyote s they were propelled to the sky, though they looked like they shit CGI Fido Didoes. I didn't think they'd been killed, just taken out of action. Given the logic of their powers, it seems unlikely that an explosion could kill them in incorporeal form.

For this and the Merovingian, it all just plays into my theory that they just had a few set pieces and characters they thought would be cool, and the plot was an afterthought to piece it all together.

I remember at the time everyone saying that you needed to watch the Animatrix, and the general response at the time was as it is now: get to fuck.

Is anyone up for a watch of Revolutions tonight?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 06:19:20 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 12, 2021, 05:45:47 PM
I remember at the time everyone saying that you needed to watch the Animatrix, and the general response at the time was as it is now: get to fuck.
I don't recall any of it being necessary. Only one of them[nb]Final Flight of the Osiris, which elaborates on how the rebels learned that the machines are drilling toward Zion[/nb] is directly related to the plot of Reloaded. A couple of others detail the backstory of the entire series, while another one shows the origin of the little weiner kid. Otherwise they're just standalone short stories.
The game, Enter the Matrix is far more integral, as it shows what Jada Pinkett's character gets up to during the sequels - including her nick of time rescue of Morpheus on the motorway and blowing up the power station.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 12, 2021, 06:51:52 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 03:59:13 PM
Yes; something particular was being achieved with what they called bullet time.  It was a camera effect, achieving agility of speed and movement with physical cameras around a real physical moment.  It was not merely an aesthetic of slowing things down every few seconds during an action scene, and it especially wasn't about the infinite freedom of camera movement that could be afforded using CGI.  Conflating bullet time into the latter was an egregious step, because the magic of looking at something real - the entire point of the original effect - became lost.

The sequels have a more dated feel to them largely because CGI has moved forward in such leaps and bounds since 2003 (and was destined to, which is why the "we've raised the bar so high there is no bar" promotional boast always had such a hollow ring).  Plus slowing down the action every few seconds becomes truly tiresome very quickly into Reloaded.  They're rarely showing anything when they do it and it starts to feel compulsive.

Espeically so on UHD I'd imagine, the original is one of the best looking disks I'v seen partly because its lacking much CGI that was until very recently in a handful of films done only at HD resolution were as in camera stuff benefits more from 4K.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 12, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Rewatching Reloaded on Prime just now, oh dear

Though my first laugh has arrived as I paused the film. Up pops the names of Morpheus' War Council. All fancy names like Niobe, Neo, Trinity, Ghost, and Bane. And, erm.....Roland

Best film ever
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 12, 2021, 07:32:47 PM
Oi! Leave Roland alone! His crew were legends! Moog, Korg, Fender, Yamaha... their hovercraft, the Stratocaster, was known in Zion as "The Boat That Rocked."
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on August 12, 2021, 07:37:10 PM
Just rewatched them on Netflix recently, the second one has some interesting stuff but feels a bit half-baked (the CGI Neos and Agent Smiths are pretty shonky looking now too), third one has some decent battle scenes but kind of ends with a whimper.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 08:31:08 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 12, 2021, 01:24:25 PM
Youtube film talker, Patrick H. Willems, does a decent job of rewriting (or outlining, at least) the sequels: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhhy0yGAX4)

Yes, this works much better.  Thanks for sharing it.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 12, 2021, 09:11:00 PM

Watching Revolutions.  Most of it is just talking in rooms.

Zion is saved because they get an ship in with the EMP tech to zap them all.  Why didn't they just build an EMP into Zion's defences.  Build in several partitioned, shielded and independent power supplies so they can spin those up when the EMP is fired and rotate around those to ensure there is no cut of power to the essential systems
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 12, 2021, 09:44:44 PM

Just got the end of Revolutions.  No idea what happened at the very end.  Peace or something.  Neo got carried of by a big golden vag.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 12, 2021, 09:48:19 PM
the first film was that amazing hinge between practical and CG like the Phantom Menace. Later they just relied on CG.

the bullet time in the first film needs CG inbetweening because you can't get the cameras enough together on the rig for the film speed. but looks so much better than the dumb playdoh computer game shit in the sequels
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 12, 2021, 10:01:06 PM
Surprised by how much I enjoyed rewatching Reloaded tonight. Fast forwarded through the underground rave scene though, obviously

The fight with all the Smiths gave me a headache, though I did enjoy him using their heads like stepping stones at one point

Never knew Link's wife is played by Marvin Gaye's daughter

Dunno what happened to Roland, as he vanished halfway through. Don't tell me, he saves the day on the PS2

3 bags. Dreading the third one though, as that is total plops

Mad that the fourth film is apparently out in just 4 months. Still no confirmation of the name, or a trailer. Apparently Laurence Fishburne is not happy he wasn't invited back. Reeves is claiming it's a lovely script and a love story. Oh dear, we'll see
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 10:45:05 PM
Perhaps the stupidest fight-scene gimmick ever is the one where people suddenly swivel around and start standing on the ceiling.  They spend time performing that stunt while their head stays in exactly the same place!  What a brilliant dodging technique for anyone who doesn't want to be shot in the legs!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 13, 2021, 09:33:12 AM
I watched the first third of Revolutions last night before I needed to sleep. 

I noticed two things: 

1) The little girl says "Neo" like she's saying "Mel".  It's like they learned they couldn't reuse the Grange Hill pronunciation of "Ro-land" (whereupon they promptly abandoned that character partway through production of Reloaded) but still desperately wanted their own gimmick along the same lines.

2) Obviously the Wachowskis had no choice but to come up with dialogue hand-waving the fact that the Oracle was now a different actress.  But with those explanations being so non-commital, and endlessly deferring any actual content in such an aloof manner, what they serve to highlight is how much of a bluff all the other, supposedly pivotal discussions of "choice" throughout the sequels are.





and so... I made a choice, we all need to make choices, we make choices all the time; the question we need to ask and later answer is why we make those choices


to choose a choice we have to choose choices, and how can you choose any choice without first knowing what those choices are



choices are what we choose when we have choices.  without choices, we have no choice
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 13, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
Yeah, I don't even know why they bothered bringing attention to the Oracle actress changing.

"Oh a pesky virus got hold of me code and changed me face mate. Anyway, on with the script"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 13, 2021, 11:58:46 AM
They should have done something properly different when recasting the Oracle. Like make her a young woman or a little girl or something. Otherwise she's obviously going to be compared with the original actor and she's significantly worse (although the dialogue doesn't do her any favours).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 13, 2021, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 13, 2021, 11:58:46 AM
They should have done something properly different when recasting the Oracle. Like make her a young woman or a little girl or something. Otherwise she's obviously going to be compared with the original actor and she's significantly worse (although the dialogue doesn't do her any favours).

Someone like William Hartnell would have been ideal.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 13, 2021, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 13, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
Yeah, I don't even know why they bothered bringing attention to the Oracle actress changing.

"Oh a pesky virus got hold of me code and changed me face mate. Anyway, on with the script"

I always thought it would be interesting if Neo somehow didn't even notice that she now looked different.  Not only because he is a massive racist, but because within the Matrix he is seeing through physical appearances to the code, and she has the code of the Oracle.  It would have shown an interesting shift in his relationship to it all (and signposted that loss of his sight wouldn't ultimately matter either) if he was now paying no attention to physical appearances whatsoever.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 13, 2021, 06:28:35 PM
Exactly.

There's now only two races anyway. Underground raver humans, and metallic squids that take years to get anywhere

Watching Revolutions tonight. See you on the other side :(
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 08:44:54 PM
I wonder whether the reason the sequels were shite was that the Wachoskis could no longer rip off Grant Morrison's comic The Invisibles?

For those who haven't read the comic, here's a deliberately vague description of the first volume of the series...

A young rebellious petty criminal is taken by black-suit-and-shades-wearing agents who have sinister designs on him. The agents appear to be from the government but are actually representatives of a higher (and much more sinister) power.

The protagonist is freed by a bald guy in a leather jacket and round shades, who introduces him to a small team of codename-using freedom fighters. The bald man explains that reality is just an illusion created by dark forces that have enslaved humanity to their own sinister ends. It also emerges that the protagonist is prophesied to be the one who can tip the balance in favour of either the heroes or the baddies, which is why both are trying to track him down.

The protagonist is offered a colourful drug to show him the true nature of reality, and as part of an initiation ceremony, he leaps off a skyscraper without dying. There is also magic mirror that flows like liquid over people's bodies and transports them outside of the illusory reality.

After getting some tuition and wisdom from an elder mystic and developing a crush on the team's tomboyish martial artist, the protagonist is put to the test when the agents (some of which can "hatch" from the souls of unwitting civilians, taking over and transforming their bodies) abduct the bald man, manacle him to a chair and begin to interrogate him.

The team make a brave attack on the enemy base, which is hidden unobtrusively in a major city, and succeed in freeing the bald man - but only after the protagonist accepts his role as the prophesied figure, and develops extraordinary powers in the process.

The Invisibles is a lot weirder and more interesting than that summary makes it sound, and the villains are magical/transdimensional rather than digital, but the similarities are uncanny.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8k-bUaAM3i8/TT5yrSn1C8I/AAAAAAAAAL8/BDfvWweQfhU/s1600/Invisibles%2B10%2BMagic%2BMirror.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on August 13, 2021, 08:57:33 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 12, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
Also, I love how Reeves doesn't quite know how to perform the hand-out-stopping-things routine when it's something massive.  Just shake your hand a bit more, like it's absorbing the impact, yeah.  And do a face like it's a tiny bit stressful.  That's it, and when we get to the machine city and you're blind, just do that really loads.  Job done, excellent.

I'd forgotten about this too. Obviously whether something 'makes sense' in a fictional film is debatable, but (from memory) it makes no sense to me that Neo gains magic powers in human form. I'm prepared to believe that The One learns to manipulate the computer simulated world at will, but how has this translated into the real world when he stops the machines?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 13, 2021, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 08:44:54 PM
I wonder whether the reason the sequels were shite was that the Wachoskis could no longer rip off Grant Morrison's comic The Invisibles?

For those who haven't read the comic, here's a deliberately vague description of the first volume of the series...

A young rebellious petty criminal is taken by black-suit-and-shades-wearing agents who have sinister designs on him. The agents appear to be from the government but are actually representatives of a higher (and much more sinister) power.

The protagonist is freed by a bald guy in a leather jacket and round shades, who introduces him to a small team of codename-using freedom fighters. The bald man explains that reality is just an illusion created by dark forces that have enslaved humanity to their own sinister ends. It also emerges that the protagonist is prophesied to be the one who can tip the balance in favour of either the heroes or the baddies, which is why both are trying to track him down.

The protagonist is offered a colourful drug to show him the true nature of reality, and as part of an initiation ceremony, he leaps off a skyscraper without dying. There is also magic mirror that flows like liquid over people's bodies and transports them outside of the illusory reality.

After getting some tuition and wisdom from an elder mystic and developing a crush on the team's tomboyish martial artist, the protagonist is put to the test when the agents (some of which can "hatch" from the souls of unwitting civilians, taking over and transforming their bodies) abduct the bald man, manacle him to a chair and begin to interrogate him.

The team make a brave attack on the enemy base, which is hidden unobtrusively in a major city, and succeed in freeing the bald man - but only after the protagonist accepts his role as the prophesied figure, and develops extraordinary powers in the process.

The Invisibles is a lot weirder and more interesting than that summary makes it sound, and the villains are magical/transdimensional rather than digital, but the similarities are uncanny.


How come Morrison didn't sue?  It sounds like the similarities are more than passing.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 09:05:58 PM
It would be a lone author vs Warners' lawyers. Not worth it. In interviews Morrison's seemed more amused by it than annoyed in any case.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: frajer on August 13, 2021, 09:14:33 PM
Quote from: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 09:05:58 PM
It would be a lone author vs Warners' lawyers. Not worth it. In interviews Morrison's seemed more amused by it than annoyed in any case.

Yeah he was clearly bemused by it all. I remember a soundbite at the time (I think in Total Film? Good Lord I am old) and Morrison summed it up as "they are clearly fans of my work so they should have at least given me a shout-out credit and it's weird that they didn't" and left it at that.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: stonkers on August 13, 2021, 09:19:17 PM
Legally I don't think he'd have much of a chance, yeah you can see The Invisibles was a huge influence but The Matrix is still very much its own thing. Also Invisbles is creator owned but published by DC, a Warner subsidiary, and Morrison is very much a DC guy. Not to mention that he's not exactly above pilerfing stuff himself, eg. Gideon Stargrave. 
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 09:23:13 PM
(Morrison is a them now, of course.)

Just re-reading bits and pieces, and the part where a tea lady is transformed into one of the monstrous armoured agents is still brilliantly chilling...

(Click for bigness.)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JfNv6DT2f54/VxErPo6cElI/AAAAAAAADzI/xQj0NEQm3vAIFQe-hPBLRZonk2-U9a6UACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpg)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HZbnBQh8pRQ/VxErPyVKllI/AAAAAAAADzI/_IeWeaTXY1sJ1VALmREhKDtHtw80jz-SQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO020.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 13, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
Morrison on The Matrix:

QuoteDRE: This may be old news but was the controversy over The Matrix films being like The Invisibles blown out of proportion?

GM: It's really simple. The truth of that one is that design staff on The Matrix were given Invisibles collections and told to make the movie look like my books. This is a reported fact. The Wachowskis are comic book creators and fans and were fans of my work, so it's hardly surprising. I was even contacted before the first Matrix movie was released and asked if I would contribute a story to the website.

It's not some baffling 'coincidence' that so much of The Matrix is plot by plot, detail by detail, image by image, lifted from Invisibles so there shouldn't be much controversy. The Wachowskis nicked The Invisibles and everyone in the know is well aware of this fact but of course they're unlikely to come out and say it.

It was just too bad they deviated so far from the Invisibles philosophical template in the second and third movies because they blundered helplessly into boring Catholic theology, proving that they hadn't HAD the 'contact' experience that drove The Invisibles, and they wrecked both
'Reloaded' and 'Revolutions' on the rocks of absolute incomprehension. They should have kept on stealing from me and maybe they would have wound up with something to really be proud of - a movie that could change minds and hearts and worlds.

I love the first Matrix movie which I think is a real work of cinematic genius and very timely but I've now heard from several people who worked on The Matrix and they've all confirmed that they were given Invisibles books as reference. That's how it is. I'm not angry about it anymore, although at one time I was because they made millions from what was basically a Xerox of my work and to be honest, I would be happy with just one million so I didn't have to work thirteen hours of every fucking day, including weekends.

In the end, I was glad they got the ideas out but very disappointed that they blew it so badly and distorted all the Gnostic transcendental aspects that made the first film so strong and potent. If they had any sense, they would have befriended me instead of pissing me off. They seem like nice boys.

https://www.suicidegirls.com/girls/anderswolleck/blog/2679166/grant-morrison/
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: touchingcloth on August 13, 2021, 09:42:12 PM
"The orgasm pudding sequence"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 13, 2021, 11:00:14 PM
Quote from: Mister Six on August 13, 2021, 08:44:54 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8k-bUaAM3i8/TT5yrSn1C8I/AAAAAAAAAL8/BDfvWweQfhU/s1600/Invisibles%2B10%2BMagic%2BMirror.jpg)

Looks like the Mighty Boosh have been having a crack at it.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 14, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
I wonder if Moz is getting riled up all over again about the new Marky Mark movie Infinite, because that's basically "what if The Matrix except Neo was 50 years old and clearly past it?"

I always felt the big problem with The Matrix having ripped off The Invisibles (which I don't doubt for a second) is that the stuff The Matrix was stealing was also the stuff Morrison had borrowed from elsewhere - "a young man gets initiated into a group fighting a war against an enemy that controls everything and in the process gains super powers" is a really solid grounding for what Morrison had to say in The Invisibles, but it's also the basis for the first Star Wars movie. And that even had a baddie in a black armoured outfit with insect-like eyes.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 14, 2021, 01:56:20 PM
Incidentally, Jean Baudrillard is also on record as having said The Matrix completely misunderstood and misinterpreted his ideas.

I notice, btw, that Alex Proyas has a Dark City TV series in development, which I'm way more excited about than another Matrix sequel.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on August 14, 2021, 03:31:05 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 12, 2021, 10:01:06 PMMad that the fourth film is apparently out in just 4 months. Still no confirmation of the name, or a trailer. Apparently Laurence Fishburne is not happy he wasn't invited back. Reeves is claiming it's a lovely script and a love story. Oh dear, we'll see

Don't think Hugo Weaving is involved either.

Interesting about the Morrison ripping-off. Went to a signing in Forbidden Planet a few years ago and got a photo with him which I posted here before, all chuffed like.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 14, 2021, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: 13 schoolyards on August 14, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
"a young man gets initiated into a group fighting a war against an enemy that controls everything and in the process gains super powers"

That's a pretty common story archetype though, to be fair. You could use it to describe Kingsman, or Wanted, or probably even Repo Man.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 14, 2021, 06:00:22 PM
Quote from: mothman on August 14, 2021, 03:44:32 PM
That's a pretty common story archetype though, to be fair. You could use it to describe Kingsman, or Wanted, or probably even Repo Man.

Or Pac-Man
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 14, 2021, 06:01:28 PM
Quote from: Glebe on August 14, 2021, 03:31:05 PM
Don't think Hugo Weaving is involved either.

Interesting about the Morrison ripping-off. Went to a signing in Forbidden Planet a few years ago and got a photo with him which I posted here before, all chuffed like.

Tbf I don't really think there'd be any point bringing Weaving/Agent Smith back, as his story very much ended in Revolutions. The character had gone as far as it could go, surely. New threats make sense at this point

But not bringing back Morpheus is bizarre. He's one of the main characters, and when you think of The Matrix you think of him.

Though there are rumours there's a younger Morpheus involved, so he simply wasn't needed. Apparently Fishburne is more pissed off that Wachowski didn't even call him to let him know why he wasn't invited back
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 14, 2021, 06:10:59 PM
Been thinking about this new film quite a bit the past few days, after rewatching the sequels. Fascinated to see where they'll go with it, and how an older Neo and Trinity are in it. Keanu denies there's any time travel involved, but I guess with the Matrix the options are pretty limitless

Not that I'm saying it'll be any good. Odds are it won't be, let's face it.  But I can't say I'm not looking forward to seeing where they go with it. Plus Christina Ricci is in it

According to IMDB, it might be called The Matrix Resurrections. Cos of course it is

It'll be slightly better than the sequels, I reckon
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 14, 2021, 06:11:08 PM
I also heard a rumour that Fishburne was an absolute bellend who all the crew despised, so maybe that's part of it. Did the Wachowskis ever work with him again? I know Reeves did in the John Wick films.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 14, 2021, 06:15:08 PM
Quote from: badaids on August 12, 2021, 05:45:47 PMI remember at the time everyone saying that you needed to watch the Animatrix, and the general response at the time was as it is now: get to fuck.

The trouble with the idea that you have to watch the Animatrix to get the most out of the Matrix sequels is that the Animatrix films are, mostly, absolute arse, and the only way they improve the experience of watching the Matrix sequels is by making them seem less bad in comparison.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 14, 2021, 06:16:16 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 14, 2021, 06:11:08 PM
I also heard a rumour that Fishburne was an absolute bellend who all the crew despised, so maybe that's part of it. Did the Wachowskis ever work with him again? I know Reeves did in the John Wick films.

I hope that Fishburne wasn't actually acting in the Matrix and that he is like Morpheus in real life.  Walking around the set with his arms behind his back, speaking to the grips and riggers in gaslighting riddles about how they could do their jobs better.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 14, 2021, 07:42:43 PM
That's interesting. I've never read a bad word about Fishburne. Usually just people saying what a great actor he is, etc

Interesting seeing how many Matrix stars went on to DC and Marvel roles. Fishburne as Perry Benson, Jada Smith as Fish something in Gotham, other blokey is Martian Manhunter, Trinity plays, erm, Jessica Jones' assistant. Hugo Weaving was V in V For Vendetta, but I dunno if that counts

That's all I've got
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 14, 2021, 08:47:19 PM
Pagan Boy plays Nipple in The Hijacked Womb
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on August 14, 2021, 10:12:53 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 14, 2021, 06:01:28 PMTbf I don't really think there'd be any point bringing Weaving/Agent Smith back, as his story very much ended in Revolutions. The character had gone as far as it could go, surely. New threats make sense at this point

Fair point, just thinking he's an iconic villain and anything can happen in the movies and that.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SweetPomPom on August 14, 2021, 10:52:18 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 14, 2021, 07:42:43 PM
That's interesting. I've never read a bad word about Fishburne. Usually just people saying what a great actor he is, etc

Interesting seeing how many Matrix stars went on to DC and Marvel roles. Fishburne as Perry Benson, Jada Smith as Fish something in Gotham, other blokey is Martian Manhunter, Trinity plays, erm, Jessica Jones' assistant. Hugo Weaving was V in V For Vendetta, but I dunno if that counts

That's all I've got

Keanu was Constantine, Joe Pantoliano was Ben Urich.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 14, 2021, 11:12:08 PM
As people are fond of complaining, there are a lot of comics films/programmes. I expect it's a near certainty that any jobbing actor is going to appear in at least one.

Fishburne was also in Ant Man 2.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 14, 2021, 11:36:41 PM
Quote from: mothman on August 14, 2021, 03:44:32 PM
That's a pretty common story archetype though, to be fair. You could use it to describe Kingsman, or Wanted, or probably even Repo Man.

Yeah, it's the details that clinch it, not the archetypal stuff. If Luke Skywalker were a tearaway, Darth Vader wore shades and Obi Wan got Luke to drop a tab of green acid before throwing him off Coruscant, I'd be more convinced.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on August 14, 2021, 11:42:39 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 14, 2021, 07:42:43 PM
That's interesting. I've never read a bad word about Fishburne. Usually just people saying what a great actor he is, etc

Interesting seeing how many Matrix stars went on to DC and Marvel roles. Fishburne as Perry Benson, Jada Smith as Fish something in Gotham, other blokey is Martian Manhunter, Trinity plays, erm, Jessica Jones' assistant. Hugo Weaving was V in V For Vendetta, but I dunno if that counts

That's all I've got

Fishburne was also in Ant-Man 2, and Weaving was the Red Skull in Captain America (but not Endgame).

I don't think it's really that significant, though, as those films pull in loads of recognisable actors for supporting roles - off the top of my head, the Marvel movies have had roles for Glenn Close, Jenny Agutter, Sylvester Stallone and plenty more - plus, actors who've been in one super sci-fi banger tend to get pulled into loads more genre cinema because it makes for easy press/fan buzz.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 15, 2021, 12:25:29 AM
I can't decide whether it's genius that they get such highly-regarded actors to do quite minor roles in the films - once upon a time, Robert Redford playing the baddie in a superhero film would have been huge news - or merely depressing that this seems to be the only work they can get in specifically commercial enterprises...
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: evilcommiedictator on August 15, 2021, 12:31:51 AM
Quote from: badaids on August 12, 2021, 05:45:47 PM
I remember at the time everyone saying that you needed to watch the Animatrix, and the general response at the time was as it is now: get to fuck.

Well, it shows who the dumb kid who is in love with Neo comes from, for starters. There's a lot more going on the world than just the bad AI vs the good humans

The thing for me is, 1 is entirely Manichaeism, then 2 we see that oh, in The Matrix, there are different factions, and not all are on the same side. Also, Neo's fusing into an AI has created unexpected side effects. (the bollocks about love of an individual and a love of a human race notwithstanding). In 3, ignoring the rave scene, we're back to action, as Neo's choice means that the AIs will finally destroy humanity, their little experiment has ended with Neo's choice, but also, The Matrix is becoming broken with Smith's power over the rules increasing along with Neo in a Ying/Yang style, and the only way to stop him is mutual annihilation, with the AI allowing humans to live in Zion or The Matrix, alongside the AIs who each have their own agendas.

In regards to lawsuits, no-one look up the Buck Rogers games - an organization called NEO exists, and there are people in suspended animation providing power......


Philosopher's commentary available below, with Cornell West, who features in the later movies as a council member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSFrBsoWzM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rICM4KSIXiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QVhiLRYJyM
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
Quote from: mothman on August 15, 2021, 12:25:29 AM
I can't decide whether it's genius that they get such highly-regarded actors to do quite minor roles in the films - once upon a time, Robert Redford playing the baddie in a superhero film would have been huge news - or merely depressing that this seems to be the only work they can get in specifically commercial enterprises...

It just makes me think of Extras.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 08:42:58 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on August 15, 2021, 12:31:51 AM
Philosopher's commentary available below, with Cornell West, who features in the later movies as a council member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSFrBsoWzM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rICM4KSIXiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QVhiLRYJyM

The critics commentary for the first film is there too:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTr9Mb7f_7c

Shame they haven't uploaded the critics commentaries for the sequels as they are funnier.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Johnny Textface on August 15, 2021, 09:21:58 AM
If they don't call it "The Matrix - Rebooted" or at least use that in the marketing then they're missing a trick.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 15, 2021, 09:37:10 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 14, 2021, 07:42:43 PM
That's interesting. I've never read a bad word about Fishburne. Usually just people saying what a great actor he is, etc

Well it was an unverified story I'd read online from someone who claimed to be a driver(?) on the productions. Moss was cool and unpretentious, Reeves was a nice guy but was training basically all the time so the crew didn't socialise with him much, Fishburne was an egotistical bully. I hope it's not true tbh because I enjoy a lot of his films.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Johnny Textface on August 15, 2021, 09:21:58 AM
If they don't call it "The Matrix - Rebooted" or at least use that in the marketing then they're missing a trick.

Or "The Matrix - Harddrive with Millions of Bitcoins Abandoned in Landfill"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Obel on August 15, 2021, 01:22:49 PM
Blatantly just going to be called 'Matrix' innit.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 15, 2021, 01:33:04 PM
Or Matrix: New Trix
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 02:19:36 PM
I wonder whether it will have that "Netflix film" feel that Bill and Ted Face the Music has, and also I wonder how obviously the film will be seeding "matrix next generation" elements.  Because plainly that's the main drive for doing this, isn't it.  To reestablish the universe so that it can expand in new directions.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
If they do six more they could have MatriX
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 02:36:40 PM
Or one of them called be a year of only snack-gap-sized animations and games called "Trix Fits"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 15, 2021, 02:56:58 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
If they do six more they could have MatriX
If they just do one trilogy, it'll be The MatSix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 15, 2021, 02:58:50 PM
Wasn't the main rumour that Wachowski wanted to do a sequel mainly to put the kibosh on a planned remake/reboot?

Not being a big racist, but I wonder if Priyanka Chopra is playing the adult version of the little girl who did Neo a sky painting? Maybe she's taken over the Oracle role

OOH ISNT THIS EXCITING
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 03:03:19 PM
I wonder if it will be stealing anything good this time
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 15, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
This bloke is claiming this is the full plot for the new film. If true, it's really nuts. Pure car crash. Can't wait

Massive, gigantic *possible* SPOILERZ

https://youtu.be/kgjhPczl4o0
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 15, 2021, 05:47:47 PM
Why can't people just write fucking blogs anymore?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on August 15, 2021, 07:37:34 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
If they do six more they could have MatriX

They only need five more for MatrIX.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 07:43:16 PM
Could always call the next one MatrIIII
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Avril Lavigne on August 15, 2021, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 15, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
This bloke is claiming this is the full plot for the new film. If true, it's really nuts. Pure car crash. Can't wait

Massive, gigantic *possible* SPOILERZ

https://youtu.be/kgjhPczl4o0

Can someone who has watched this please briefly summarise it for me so I don't have to listen to some insufferable nerd droning on for 20 minutes, thanks.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: An tSaoi on August 15, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: Avril Lavigne on August 15, 2021, 07:49:55 PM
Can someone who has watched this please briefly summarise it for me so I don't have to listen to some insufferable nerd droning on for 20 minutes, thanks.
Spoiler alert

They've rebooted the Matrix, in a meta sense. Get it? GET IT?! Neo still exists in the new Matrix, even though he was killed in the real world in the third film. So does Trinity, apparently. Neo has insomnia, and vaguely remembers bits of the previous films. Morpheus has been copied, and is now as a programme who only exists in the Matrix, played by not Laurence Fishburne. Agent Smith has also been pasted into the Matrix, played by not Elrond. They have to get the gang back together in order to put Neo's katra back in his reanimated body (like Search for Spock). Everyone in the Matrix turns into zombies and runs after them with guns. Doogie Howser is Neo's therapist.
[close]
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Avril Lavigne on August 15, 2021, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: An tSaoi on August 15, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Spoiler alert

They've rebooted the Matrix, in a meta sense. Get it? GET IT?! Neo still exists in the new Matrix, even though he was killed in the real world in the third film. So does Trinity, apparently. Neo has insomnia, and vaguely remembers bits of the previous films. Morpheus has been copied, and is now as a programme who only exists in the Matrix, played by not Laurence Fishburne. Agent Smith has also been pasted into the Matrix, played by not Elrond. They have to get the gang back together in order to put Neo's katra back in his reanimated body (like Search for Spock). Everyone in the Matrix turns into zombies and runs after them with guns. Doogie Howser is Neo's therapist.
[close]

Thanks! That sounds... about as interesting as the third one which I still haven't seen. I was expecting something weirder.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: An tSaoi on August 15, 2021, 08:37:06 PM
Spoiler alert
Also, Trinity is now the One, because of WOKE FEMINAZIS ruining movies
[close]
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 15, 2021, 08:38:31 PM
That sounds bonkers enough to be worth a look.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 08:55:59 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 07:43:16 PM
Could always call the next one MatrIIII

MatrIV, surely.  Unless that was the joke.




oooooOOOOOOOOooohhhh MATRIV
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: frajer on August 15, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
M8rix
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 09:09:21 PM
Matr55378008
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 15, 2021, 09:15:33 PM
Quote from: Avril Lavigne on August 15, 2021, 07:49:55 PM
Can someone who has watched this please briefly summarise it for me so I don't have to listen to some insufferable nerd droning on for 20 minutes, thanks.

Heh, he's a bit monotone but I actually quite enjoyed his description of "what he's been told". It was like watching the film without watching it. Which is probably for the best

There's one thing in there which you can see some people going into meltdown about,
Spoiler alert
but it actually kinda makes sense. When Neo saved Trinity, maybe some of The One code went onto her, or into her, eh lads?! Like what happened with Neo and Agent Smith. I kinda like the idea of them both flying into the camera at the end too. It'd be a soft reboot, but if it's a good film and leads to more good films who'd really give a fuck?
[close]

Who knows if any of it is true. Maybe the actual script is even madder. Hope so. Best film ever
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
If they
Spoiler alert
both fly into the camera at the end
[close]
, I hope it's
Spoiler alert
on a steam train this time
[close]
.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Avril Lavigne on August 15, 2021, 09:52:13 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 15, 2021, 09:15:33 PM
Heh, he's a bit monotone but I actually quite enjoyed his description of "what he's been told". It was like watching the film without watching it. Which is probably for the best

With this kind of thing I'm always of the mindset that until proven true it's most likely just fanfiction, even if the person reporting it believes it to be genuine, so I'll always prefer a brief writeup :) As it stands I can't really tell if that story sounds genuine or not since the last two Matrix movies don't exactly sound straightforward on paper.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 10:18:31 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 08:55:59 PM
MatrIV, surely.  Unless that was the joke.




oooooOOOOOOOOooohhhh MATRIV
well the joke, such as it was, is that clock faces traditionally have IIII instead of IV. which avoids making up a character.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 16, 2021, 12:58:05 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 15, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
If they
Spoiler alert
both fly into the camera at the end
[close]
, I hope it's
Spoiler alert
on a steam train this time
[close]
.

"These are our boys, Grant and Morrison!"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 16, 2021, 07:50:24 AM
Quote from: idunnosomename on August 15, 2021, 10:18:31 PM
well the joke, such as it was, is that clock faces traditionally have IIII instead of IV. which avoids making up a character.

Oh it was a clock faces joke.


Very niche
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 16, 2021, 07:51:29 AM
Quote from: mothman on August 16, 2021, 12:58:05 AM
"These are our boys, Grant and Morrison!"

*Morrison points uncomfortably at his knob*
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SteveDave on August 17, 2021, 10:39:24 AM
I watched the first one on Saturday and had forgotten how hokey some of it is. Mostly the dialogue.

"The Sentinels"
"What are the Sentinels?"
"They're made to do one thing...search and destroy"

That's two things.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 17, 2021, 11:17:39 AM
Maybe that's packaged up as one thing, like fish and chips is released as one meal.  Sometimes they even include peas with it and the number of meals doesn't shoot up.



Deep films aren't they
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 17, 2021, 11:35:01 AM
It would be really good if one of the defining traits of the fourth Matrix film was aged Keanu Reeves shouting KARATE CHOP and then flimsily doing a chopping action on people's necks
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on August 17, 2021, 02:28:30 PM
Gets it downloaded into his brain; "Whoa, I know KAH-RAAH-TAY!"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 17, 2021, 02:36:00 PM
Gets it downloaded into his brain; "Whoa, I know the complete scripts of Mrs Brown's Boys!"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 17, 2021, 04:13:14 PM
In the new film he wears two pairs of sunglasses at the same time
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 17, 2021, 05:53:35 PM
I wonder if he'll be short-haired and clean-shaven like he was in the original trilogy (!), or will he just sport the same long-haired and bearded look that seems to have become his personal style for at least the last decade or so?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Obel on August 17, 2021, 07:06:19 PM
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tp-composite-the-matrix.jpg?w=660)

There's your answer I guess. Neo decided he wants to style himself after popular John Wick actor Keanu Reeves.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 17, 2021, 07:36:59 PM
Apparently the black cat from the deja vu scene in the first film is still alive, but turned down reprising his role as Laurence Fishburne isn't in it
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 17, 2021, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: mothman on August 17, 2021, 05:53:35 PM
I wonder if he'll be short-haired and clean-shaven like he was in the original trilogy (!), or will he just sport the same long-haired and bearded look that seems to have become his personal style for at least the last decade or so?

I hope that he'll look like he does in John Wick when he's outside the Matrix, and that when he's inside he'll choose to look and act like Bobby Ball.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on August 17, 2021, 07:48:08 PM
Can't believe Larry Fish isn't in it. Don't have a point to make, just wanted to call him Larry Fish
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Gulftastic on August 17, 2021, 08:02:34 PM
Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on August 17, 2021, 07:48:08 PM
Can't believe Larry Fish isn't in it. Don't have a point to make, just wanted to call him Larry Fish

Sick burn, dude.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: badaids on August 17, 2021, 08:05:03 PM
Quote from: Obel on August 17, 2021, 07:06:19 PM
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tp-composite-the-matrix.jpg?w=660)

There's your answer I guess. Neo decided he wants to style himself after popular John Wick actor Keanu Reeves.

I hope the photo on the left is used to form the photo for the publicity poster when the film comes out.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 18, 2021, 01:01:53 AM
lmao looks like they're sharing a pavement scooter to go to Lidl on
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on August 18, 2021, 01:20:07 AM
The Matrix Desolations
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Lord Mandrake on August 18, 2021, 01:20:21 AM
John Wick is Neo plugged in to the Matrix and amnesic. His dead dog represents Trinity. Laz Fishbowl also amnesic, thinks he's a tramp. Green filter, 90's beats. John Wick 4 The M4trix (Recoiled, Parabellend).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: stonkers on August 18, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Quote from: Gulftastic on August 17, 2021, 08:02:34 PM
Sick burn, dude.

No it's Fishburn.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 18, 2021, 08:28:21 AM
What's terrifically exciting to think of is the teal and orange that will be applied to the Zion scenes.  A unique and striking contrast to the green filter of the Matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on August 18, 2021, 10:41:13 AM
Have been enjoying this thread and decided to watch Reloaded to see if it held up at all.

Not at all, it's so joyless and boring. Even the action scenes just seem like video game cutscenes with no impact, often there's no reason for them to even happen and they're just shoehorned in for the sake of it. Too much time is spent introducing new characters they didn't really need to, who have very little relevance to the story. It doesn't feel like it's directed by the same people as the original film, the pacing is way off.
There's a few bits and ideas here and there with promise but most of it is dire.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 18, 2021, 10:59:10 AM
I think I may have mentioned this before in earlier threads about the Matrix, but the version of the first film that is available nowadays has its Matrix scenes re-tinted to match the saturation of green used in the sequels.

They originally conceived those first film Matrix scenes to have a slightly unreal hue to them, but subtle enough that you would only notice it once Neo had already been released from the Matrix and then plugged back in.  After the natural tones of the real world, then you would notice the Matrix was slightly green.

For the sequels they ramped up the green, and then the first film was regraded to match.  This means that all the scenes before Neo even meets Trinity or Morpheus are so overwhelmingly green that the alienation effect kicks in before you have a chance to settle.

It's pretty annoying, as it alters the film considerably more than any minor tweak ought to, and most people don't know that the sequels retroactively altered the original film in this manner.  If you are interested in seeing the 1999 version, you need to go back to the pre-2003 DVDs.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: frajer on August 18, 2021, 11:18:57 AM
Quote from: thugler on August 18, 2021, 10:41:13 AM
Have been enjoying this thread and decided to watch Reloaded to see if it held up at all.

Not at all, it's so joyless and boring. Even the action scenes just seem like video game cutscenes with no impact, often there's no reason for them to even happen and they're just shoehorned in for the sake of it. Too much time is spent introducing new characters they didn't really need to, who have very little relevance to the story. It doesn't feel like it's directed by the same people as the original film, the pacing is way off.
There's a few bits and ideas here and there with promise but most of it is dire.

I too was inspired by this thread to rewatch both Reloaded and Revolutions over the past weekend. They're not good, are they?

The weird sensation persisted that both sequels had been made a decade and change after the original, with de-ageing effects used on the actors or something. There is such a strange disconnect from the first film. I'd say there is no chance it was always intended to be a trilogy (but I appreciate this is a line a lot of filmmakers trot out when they get to do more films, so fair play to the Wachowskis).

There are definitely some great ideas in the mix (I like the idea of rogue programmes clinging on inside The Matrix, even if the execution is a bit shit) and I appreciate how utterly strange some of the filmmaking decisions are. They don't feel like designed-by-committee sequels and that was quite refreshing. But they are sadly messy, sporadically paced, and the worst offender is they are often quite dull. Almost turned off halfway through Revolutions.

Despite all that I'm still intrigued by Matrix 4.0: Live Free or Eat Steak as it feels like it will be something different, for better or worse (probably worse).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Chedney Honks on August 18, 2021, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 18, 2021, 10:59:10 AM
I think I may have mentioned this before in earlier threads about the Matrix, but the version of the first film that is available nowadays has its Matrix scenes re-tinted to match the saturation of green used in the sequels.

For a bit more info, the recent 4K HDR releases were subject to further grading which toned down the green filter so that it's more subtly perceptible rather than dominant. I can't say if it matches the original grading but I understand that it's the best way to see the film. I recently sold the 4K trilogy because the sequels don't merit the space on the shelf.

Picked up the Animatrix on Blu-ray, though, and looking forward to giving it another go after like fifteen years. I wasn't into anime at all last time I watched but I reckon I'll get much more out of it now.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 18, 2021, 11:43:52 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 18, 2021, 10:59:10 AM
I think I may have mentioned this before in earlier threads about the Matrix, but the version of the first film that is available nowadays has its Matrix scenes re-tinted to match the saturation of green used in the sequels.

They originally conceived those first film Matrix scenes to have a slightly unreal hue to them, but subtle enough that you would only notice it once Neo had already been released from the Matrix and then plugged back in.  After the natural tones of the real world, then you would notice the Matrix was slightly green.

For the sequels they ramped up the green, and then the first film was regraded to match.  This means that all the scenes before Neo even meets Trinity or Morpheus are so overwhelmingly green that the alienation effect kicks in before you have a chance to settle.

It's pretty annoying, as it alters the film considerably more than any minor tweak ought to, and most people don't know that the sequels retroactively altered the original film in this manner.  If you are interested in seeing the 1999 version, you need to go back to the pre-2003 DVDs.

Yep, agreed. I even bought a really old dvd release just to have the original version. It does make a difference
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Butchers Blind on August 25, 2021, 11:01:50 AM
https://www.ign.com/articles/the-matrix-4-matrix-resurrections-cinemacon-trailer-reveal-warner-bros (https://www.ign.com/articles/the-matrix-4-matrix-resurrections-cinemacon-trailer-reveal-warner-bros)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 25, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
Why does a matrix need a keanu reeves inside.  In the sequels they banged on about multiple ones preceding Neo - are we to presume they were all keanu reeves?


just seems a bit arbitrary to me.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 25, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
i think it's because Uvavu Rooffs is a famous man and you need famous man to make big film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: evilcommiedictator on August 26, 2021, 04:43:02 AM
"Matrix: Resurrection", hmm, what an awfully cryptic title, can't figure out what will happen in the plot
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 26, 2021, 06:22:21 AM
In matron resurrection the bad guys tm will have cloned an alan ripley but - gasp and behold - will have agent dna inside, making it gordon

cue up the usual antiques as jeffrey aeroplanes and seymore stains have to get out of their bad books tm and into somebody else's.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 26, 2021, 06:24:37 AM
Or maybe the twist will be that resurrection is short for "resident erection" and they're gonna use wire fu and bullet time to recreate keanu reeves' best "whoa" yet
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: willbo on August 26, 2021, 07:40:19 AM
I dunno how I'm so out of step with everyone else on this, but I enjoyed Matrix 2 and 3 more than the 1st back when they first came out. I'd already read Philip K Dick, Cyberpunk, and VR type stuff when I saw the 1st film, so its ideas didn't really blow me away that much, and beneath the VR universe concept it just felt like another Batman/Crow type film to me. But 2 and 3 seemed to have more interesting and offbeat set-pieces and images, to the point that I rewatched them while forgetting about the 1st.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on August 26, 2021, 10:13:01 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on August 25, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
Why does a matrix need a keanu reeves inside.  In the sequels they banged on about multiple ones preceding Neo - are we to presume they were all keanu reeves?


just seems a bit arbitrary to me.
If they're doing another film about Keanu realising he's Neo, which this may or may not be, then that could be fun. And endlessly repeatable. Although claims that it's a "love story" are worrying, in view of Keanu's record in romcoms.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on August 26, 2021, 10:29:49 AM
The trailer certainly seems like YouTube blokey may be right about the film's plot. We'll see

Will Smith on why he turned the role of Neo down

https://v.redd.it/fiquyyu29ki71
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 26, 2021, 11:10:39 AM
Shouldve called it M4trix

I have found this measured assessment of the trailer by an esteemed cultural commentator.

QuoteThe minute I saw of The Matrix 4 was epic. It looks like it might even over-deliver.

Keanu Reeves looks fantastic as Neo. Neo & Trinity were WRECKING SH!T by the end!!! Motorcycles, helicopters, rocket launchers, jumping off buildings in incredible slow-mo.

MATRIX IS BACK!

So there you have it.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on August 26, 2021, 01:38:36 PM
MATRIX IS BACK!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: greenman on August 26, 2021, 01:56:39 PM
Matrix are for Kids
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on August 26, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
A 38-year old Arnie leaves the thread disappointed.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on August 26, 2021, 02:09:49 PM
Thing is that "let off some steam... Bennett" has aged better than any of the silliness in the Matrix films. Because all its nonsense with missile launchers and helicopters was meant to be a bit silly, not part of some philosophical psychodrama.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on August 26, 2021, 04:47:12 PM
MAN UTD ARE BACK
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on August 27, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
should have called it m8arse-trix and reused the shots of Batman's arse and nipples
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on August 27, 2021, 11:24:23 AM
Shoulda called it MAAAAATE-RIX and yeah I got nothing
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: touchingcloth on August 27, 2021, 02:25:31 PM
Should have called it Arsed Mate, Rick's, and it's all about Morpheus helping Neo escape from Richard Gere's arse and when you're in the Arsed Mate, Rick's the Sentinels look like scary machines but when you gobble down the pill and escape you realise they're just dead-eyed gerbils, clocking in for yet another shift of scurrying round Gere's colon.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: frajer on August 27, 2021, 02:29:24 PM
Should have called it Mating Trix and been yet another Channel 4 reality show about couples being on dates and learning all the trix to mate with their desired partners. Keanu Reeves could have been under the restaurant table and every so often you hear a muffled "Whoa".
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: samadriel on August 27, 2021, 02:34:11 PM
Should've called it Best of the Matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: touchingcloth on August 27, 2021, 02:44:58 PM
Should have called it Dogging Star, and it's just Keanu Reeves going on dogging trips with members of his band Dog Star in the search for Britain's Best Dogger.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Obel on September 07, 2021, 09:50:48 PM
https://youtu.be/VPhUUFXMILU

Teaser. Full trailer in 2 days.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 07:21:28 AM
Everything that has a beginning



goes on indefinitely
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 08, 2021, 09:07:34 AM
www.whatisthematrix.com - 180,000 different teasers, apparently, depending which pill you click on and what time it is when you click. I suspect a fairly small selection of scenes, though, shuffled about a bit, and probably all included in the video Obel posted two posts above this one.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 10:29:45 AM
That video above contains two teasers anyway so it's a con
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 08, 2021, 10:39:55 AM
Yes, it's essentially a red pill teaser and a blue pill teaser from the website, but without the bits that mention the time.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 11:34:28 AM
It would be better if they were jelly babies, but gummy bears would have been bearable too.  Jelly beans are so intolerably "of" 1999
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Magnum Valentino on September 08, 2021, 11:50:01 AM
I mind the trailer for Charlie Brokers Dead Set had a similar gimmick where you had to enter your name to access the promo site and it was able to make it look like Jaime Winstone was writing you a bloody message from the diary room.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 08, 2021, 12:24:42 PM
Hopefully the big twist this time will be that yes, Mr Anderson has totally lost his mind, he really is imagining all this stuff and 2/3rds through the film he falls off a building. Kids, say no to drugs.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on September 08, 2021, 12:32:41 PM
Judging from the teaser the leaked plot outline was correct, which sounded really bad, soft reboot nonsense
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 08, 2021, 12:52:17 PM
That was always on the cards though - it was either going to be a straight do-over of the first film, or a do-over of the first film only some new kid was the new Neo and Reeves / Neo was now in the Morpheus role guiding him.

There might be some tinkering around the edges (wait, now the machines are humanity's slaves and Neo's job is to rescue them!?) but the same basic story going on about "what is really real" and "kick that dude in the head" was always going to be what we got
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 06:31:53 PM
Hopefully the CGI will be authentically fake looking
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Magnum Valentino on September 09, 2021, 02:41:34 PM
Only one of the Wachowskis involved, missed that before.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on September 09, 2021, 03:00:28 PM
Trailer looks pretty boring. Looking at the spoilers I don't really understand what the stakes are, all seems a bit pointless.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 09, 2021, 03:03:41 PM
seen some wank on Twitter giving it the 'at last films look good again, thank you Lana for bringing back matrix' totally forgetting the last two looked like total green piss
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 09, 2021, 03:06:47 PM
Considering how they target trailers to specific audiences these days I wouldn't be surprised if this was the "nostalgia" trailer - it makes the upcoming film look like almost a shot-for-shot remake of the original right up until that guy at the end says "waa-hey, you're going back to THE MATRIX!".

Which was the only bit that made it seem like they were going to take things anywhere outside the boundaries of the very first film, which you'd think would be the (artistic) point of a new Matrix film.

Also they're going to have to come up with a pretty decent explanation of why there's no Morpheus / there's a "new" Morpheus - no Agent Smith they can explain away easily enough (why would the machines bring him back?), but old Neo / young Morpheus is going to need at least 30 seconds of solid fankwank exposition
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 09, 2021, 03:11:31 PM
Cannot fucking believe they used White Rabbit in the trailer, fuck my arse

Who's this fake ass Larry Fish?!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 09, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
Ah I reckon it'll be worth a look. A bit of a spectacle and all that, with some creative visuals.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 09, 2021, 03:20:54 PM
they should've transitioned into We Built This City

Although notice none of the nerd crew MATRIX IS BACK BABY menchildren who saw it at the ComicCon mentioned it because they probably didnt recognise the song
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 09, 2021, 03:36:20 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 06:31:53 PM
Hopefully the CGI will be authentically fake looking

Maybe that's in-continuity, as the Matrix has to downgrade the textures to keep the framerate up while animating so many Agent Smiths.

The film should stop for 20 minutes halfway through while the Matrix installs a patch, and Neo and Trinity sit in the Nebuchadnezzar twiddling their thumbs and looking awkward.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 09, 2021, 03:51:44 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on September 09, 2021, 02:41:34 PM
Only one of the Wachowskis involved, missed that before.

The other one has been busy with Work in Progress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_in_Progress_(TV_series)).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: madhair60 on September 09, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
looks fantastic can't wait, knocks marvel dross into a cocked hat
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 09, 2021, 04:19:56 PM
Trailer link, for anyone who hasn't found it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ix7TUGVYIo
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 09, 2021, 04:53:58 PM
Hey guys whats up here some COOL DETAILS you may have missed in that awesome Matrix trailer.

When the song says rabbit there is a tattoo of a rabbit.
They show a copy of Alice in Wonderland and Neo walks through a mirror (looking glass)
Fucking SHIT gets blown SKY HIGH
Neo has beard

Thanks watching like subscribe bell
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 09, 2021, 05:29:58 PM
I was actually intrigued by the trailer until 1:43, and all the dreadful grey and red metal squid stuff evoking the third film.  There's no getting away from the fact that wherever this film is going, it's evoking a horrible trilogy.


Some of the effects stuff, like walking through the mirror and the agent taking someone over, looks substantially worse than they've ever looked before.  I had the same feeling seeing the T1000 in Terminator Genysis - it looked amazing in 1991 and even though it was fairly straightforward morphing they weren't able to get it right years later.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 09, 2021, 06:02:12 PM
That's because they just use generic plugins to do everything now. The software for morphing T1000 was written especially for the movie, it was so novel. I expect similar things happened here. There will be people working on this who were kids when the first film came out (not say they dont work hard and are talented in their own right, just it's a big gap in how things are done now)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: thugler on September 09, 2021, 06:14:53 PM
Compare the 'no mouth' effect to the one in the first film. It's crap. And why, surely it's easy to do with practical effects.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: chveik on September 09, 2021, 07:33:05 PM
Quote from: madhair60 on September 09, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
looks fantastic can't wait, knocks marvel dross into a cocked hat

filming my morning shit would knock marvel out of the park

i'm seeing double, four matrixes
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 09, 2021, 07:41:46 PM
Quote from: thugler on September 09, 2021, 06:14:53 PM
Compare the 'no mouth' effect to the one in the first film. It's crap. And why, surely it's easy to do with practical effects.

Yes, the new one looks like a paintbox smear effect has been applied to the image.  Even the small mouth in Round The Twist looks better (and creates a better body horror effect).

(https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/showandtellonline/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/03145716/r-650x320.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Ferris on September 09, 2021, 08:47:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Z on August 26, 2021, 04:47:12 PM
MAN UTD ARE BACK

Give it Morpheus-y til the end of the season film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Lord Mandrake on September 09, 2021, 09:14:33 PM
Presume some cg unfinished because it looks ropey. Callbacks to Inception? Throwbacks to bullet time and 360 panning. Looks like Keanu might try and act which is a worry and the new supporting cast look like vaccums besides sitcom guy.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on September 09, 2021, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 09, 2021, 04:53:58 PM
Hey guys whats up here some COOL DETAILS you may have missed in that awesome Matrix trailer.

When the song says rabbit there is a tattoo of a rabbit.
They show a copy of Alice in Wonderland and Neo walks through a mirror (looking glass)
It's clever because nobody has ever done an adult version of Alice in Wonderland or referenced it in any science fiction or action movie.

I'm hoping they're withholding the good special effects from the trailer (possibly because they're still rendering) because if the movie's all Keanu doing Force Pushes or Hadukens or whatever you call them, I'd rather just go into the nearest office block and smash up the lobby myself.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on September 09, 2021, 09:47:16 PM
Dear me but this looks rubbish.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on September 09, 2021, 09:57:34 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 09, 2021, 04:53:58 PM
Hey guys whats up here some COOL DETAILS you may have missed in that awesome Matrix trailer.

When the song says rabbit there is a tattoo of a rabbit.
They show a copy of Alice in Wonderland and Neo walks through a mirror (looking glass)
Fucking SHIT gets blown SKY HIGH
Neo has beard

Thanks watching like subscribe bell

You probably didn't notice this subtle detail but it looks like Neo is having to take medicine for something and they are blue pills. There's a very quick, insignificant moment in the first film where it explains that a blue pill is what keeps you in the matrix, and a red pill wakes you up!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Goldentony on September 09, 2021, 10:38:45 PM
thought that Alice In Wonderland thing was a joke because surely nobody can be doing that analogy again in 2021 but no there it fucking is right there in the trailer
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: chveik on September 09, 2021, 10:50:13 PM
you'd think the cunt would be blackpilled by now
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 09, 2021, 11:39:55 PM
All right, I might be a fucking idiot (I am a fucking idiot), but that trailer looks great, and I'm very intrigued. Might well still be shite, mind you. Reloaded was gash and I didn't bother with Revolutions.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Kelvin on September 10, 2021, 12:09:16 AM
Doesn't seem like there's enough in the trailer for me to have a strong opinion either way on it's quality*, but just visually, my concern is that the film looks surprisingly ugly, both for a Matrix film and a film directed by a Wachowski.


*Which probably means it wasn't a very good trailer.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 10, 2021, 12:36:03 AM
Quote from: Captain Z on September 09, 2021, 09:57:34 PM
You probably didn't notice this subtle detail but it looks like Neo is having to take medicine for something and they are blue pills. There's a very quick, insignificant moment in the first film where it explains that a blue pill is what keeps you in the matrix, and a red pill wakes you up!
wow! thanks! amazing! Matrix is back!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on September 10, 2021, 01:27:47 AM
I had a red pill once and it did fuck all

When will these so called film makers stop lying to us?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: evilcommiedictator on September 10, 2021, 02:23:06 AM
Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on September 09, 2021, 03:11:31 PM
Cannot fucking believe they used White Rabbit in the trailer, fuck my arse

Yep so none of you were paying attention to Carrie-Ann's tattoo in the bar at the start of The Matrix then?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 10, 2021, 06:52:29 AM
Wasn't that Aussie soap legend Ada Nicodemou as the cool chick with the rabbit tatt in the first film?

I'm surprised nobody else is disappointed that the 2021 Matrix now has enough processing power to accurately render a semi-convincing replica of San Fransisco rather than the generic no-name brand green-tinged Sydney of the first films
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 07:32:27 AM
Sydney is such an overly green place.  Shame they filmed there really, because it fully tinted those films.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: druss on September 10, 2021, 08:10:17 AM
Quote from: Captain Z on September 09, 2021, 09:57:34 PM
You probably didn't notice this subtle detail but it looks like Neo is having to take medicine for something and they are blue pills.
Neo developed serious erectile dysfunction in his old age, sad to see.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: phantom_power on September 10, 2021, 08:50:53 AM
Quote from: Mister Six on September 09, 2021, 11:39:55 PM
All right, I might be a fucking idiot (I am a fucking idiot), but that trailer looks great, and I'm very intrigued. Might well still be shite, mind you. Reloaded was gash and I didn't bother with Revolutions.
,

Yeah, I wasn't particularly bothered with this film but that trailer really piqued my interest. I know White Rabbit is on the nose but the way it was weaved into the Matrix theme was really nice and there were some good visuals in there.

I think if nothing else the Wachowskis are singular film-makers who follow their own path, for ill or good, so I don't think this will be just a generic reboot. I can't imagine the people who made Jupiter Ascending, Cloud Atlas and Speed Racer would do something so pedestrian
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 10, 2021, 10:00:21 AM
Quote from: Kelvin on September 10, 2021, 12:09:16 AM
Doesn't seem like there's enough in the trailer for me to have a strong opinion either way on it's quality*, but just visually, my concern is that the film looks surprisingly ugly, both for a Matrix film and a film directed by a Wachowski.

Which bits looked ugly to you? I was watching it on my phone while walking the dog, admittedly, but it didn't strike me as particularly hideous.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 10, 2021, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: evilcommiedictator on September 10, 2021, 02:23:06 AM
Yep so none of you were paying attention to Carrie-Ann's tattoo in the bar at the start of The Matrix then?
No actually I did notice all the Alice in Wonderland stuff in The Matrix. Because I watched The Matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 10:22:02 AM
Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on September 10, 2021, 10:02:12 AM
No actually I did notice all the Alice in Wonderland stuff in The Matrix. Because I watched The Matrix.

Alright then clever clogs, as punishment you now need to list everything you can remember from The Matrix
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 10, 2021, 10:31:57 AM
1. Flying car doing a loop
2. All dogs running around with 'Who Let The Dogs Out' playing
3. Hand slammed in car door
4. Montage of farm machinery
5. Nude woman
6. "Uhh... did that just happen?!"
7. Hippo
8. Guy reads 'Alice in Wonderland' and goes "this shit's crazy, I'll have what this guy's having, drugs"
9. Glasses that clip on your nose
10. Grover driving a car
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 10, 2021, 11:04:41 AM
Trailer just needs a familiar voice at the end saying "Mr. Anderson... did you miss me?"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Butchers Blind on September 10, 2021, 11:06:45 AM
Thought that looked all rather dull. Just another rote action film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: frajer on September 10, 2021, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: mothman on September 10, 2021, 11:04:41 AM
Trailer just needs a familiar voice at the end saying "Mr. Anderson... did you miss me?"

I would genuinely like this! On many levels I know this trailer looks quite shit, but I also know I will watch and probably enjoy this film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on September 10, 2021, 10:31:57 AM
1. Flying car doing a loop
2. All dogs running around with 'Who Let The Dogs Out' playing
3. Hand slammed in car door
4. Montage of farm machinery
5. Nude woman
6. "Uhh... did that just happen?!"
7. Hippo
8. Guy reads 'Alice in Wonderland' and goes "this shit's crazy, I'll have what this guy's having, drugs"
9. Glasses that clip on your nose
10. Grover driving a car

You have put

3 in the correct places


1:24 mins left
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 11:39:04 AM
MR ANDERSON WELCOME BACK



and then a shot of Agent Smith with a horse's arse bizarrely close to his face
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on September 10, 2021, 11:55:27 AM
I assume the point of the trailer is to reference everything in the original movies, and offer a bit of a tease, rather than to show that the new Matrix is actually a good film with interesting things which are worth watching. So well done guys.

And yes there were Alice in Wonderland refs in the original Matrix, but since then we've sat through 6 Resident Evil movies steeped in Alice shit, 2 terrible Disney Alice sequel/reimaginings, American McGee's Alice, several Lewis Carroll biopics, and about a million films in which someone's gone "We're thru the looking glass here dudes", so maybe find some new cultural references.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 12:07:14 PM
That's your fault for watching all those shit things


Next time, only watch The Matrix
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 10, 2021, 12:20:04 PM
Neo... we're home
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mikeyg27 on September 10, 2021, 02:01:04 PM
My main takeaway from the trailer is that it should've been called Back To The Matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 10, 2021, 02:06:50 PM
Neo has to avoid his previous self above the lobby scene while trying to retrieve the sports almanac
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 10, 2021, 03:34:12 PM
Neo's son finds him in the Matrix after being sucked into a game of Space Paranoids. End credits over Limp Bizkit cover of Pat Benatar.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Ferris on September 10, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Right just saw the trailer, looks like exactly the type of mad action explosion pop-philosophy shit I'd expect. Will definitely watch this.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: bakabaka on September 10, 2021, 04:09:13 PM
As long as it ends with the reveal that the digitising of the entire world was done by Enzo, I'll be happy.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: chveik on September 10, 2021, 04:17:40 PM
neo v neol
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: elliszeroed on September 10, 2021, 05:59:47 PM
I remember  a lot of similar films being released around that time:

The Thirteenth Floor - a scientist makes a version of 1920s LA, and is then killed, and his protoge has to go into the system to find out who killed him. Starring Gretchen Mol! The same story was also made into a German TV series - World On A Wire.

Existenz - Jude Law and Jennifer Jason Leigh are on the run through games within games as she is hunted by "realists". Directed by David Cronenberg!

Dark City - I think the mystery of this is actually revealed near the start (ala Predator), but a great film with Rufus Sewel as an amnesiac who may or may not be a murderer in a city with a dark secret.  Have you ever been to Shell Bay? Starring Jennifer Connely.

I'm a huge fan of this genre, and a teenager at the time, so this was happiness.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 06:12:41 PM
Quote from: Bad Ambassador on September 10, 2021, 03:34:12 PM
Neo's sondaughter finds him in the Matrix after being sucked into a game of Space Paranoids. End credits over Limp Bizkit cover of Pat Benatar.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 10, 2021, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: elliszeroed on September 10, 2021, 05:59:47 PMDark City - I think the mystery of this is actually revealed near the start (ala Predator), but a great film with Rufus Sewel as an amnesiac who may or may not be a murderer in a city with a dark secret.  Have you ever been to Shell Bay? Starring Jennifer Connely.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but Alex Proyas has a Dark City TV series in development.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 10, 2021, 06:29:09 PM
Quote from: elliszeroed on September 10, 2021, 05:59:47 PM
I remember  a lot of similar films being released around that time:

The Thirteenth Floor - a scientist makes a version of 1920s LA, and is then killed, and his protoge has to go into the system to find out who killed him. Starring Gretchen Mol! The same story was also made into a German TV series - World On A Wire.

Existenz - Jude Law and Jennifer Jason Leigh are on the run through games within games as she is hunted by "realists". Directed by David Cronenberg!

Dark City - I think the mystery of this is actually revealed near the start (ala Predator), but a great film with Rufus Sewel as an amnesiac who may or may not be a murderer in a city with a dark secret.  Have you ever been to Shell Bay? Starring Jennifer Connely.

I'm a huge fan of this genre, and a teenager at the time, so this was happiness.
I recently watched The Truman Show and thought that had a similar theme going on. Maybe it was a 90's thing, a gnawing sense that the relative peace and stability of the decade was all false, or something like that.

I don't think I've ever heard Dark City mentioned without some reference to The Matrix.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Magnum Valentino on September 10, 2021, 07:05:32 PM
The mystery in Dark City is only revealed at the start of the theatrical release, the director's cut removes the voiceover and you only find out the craic near the end.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 10, 2021, 07:21:45 PM
Dark City and the original Matrix used some of the same sets - I think particularly the big derelict building with the black and white floor that Morpheus uses as a base.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Goldentony on September 10, 2021, 07:30:27 PM
MY NAME

IS NEO THE MATIX REVOLUTIONS
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 07:31:00 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on September 10, 2021, 07:05:32 PM
The mystery in Dark City is only revealed at the start of the theatrical release, the director's cut removes the voiceover and you only find out the craic near the end.

Rip-off of Blade Runner
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mikeyg27 on September 10, 2021, 07:52:27 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 10, 2021, 06:29:09 PM
I recently watched The Truman Show and thought that had a similar theme going on. Maybe it was a 90's thing, a gnawing sense that the relative peace and stability of the decade was all false, or something like that.

For one of the modules of my degree I had to read an essay about these two films (The Truman Show and The Matrix) and this exact premise. Shame I can't remember who it was by.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on September 10, 2021, 08:00:04 PM
The Thirteenth Floor is indeed a fine film. I hope we all get to walk around a digitally recreated 1920s one day

I liked Dark City, but can't remember much about it. Time to rewatch both, I think!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 10, 2021, 08:22:32 PM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on September 10, 2021, 08:00:04 PM
The Thirteenth Floor is indeed a fine film. I hope we all get to walk around a digitally recreated 1920s one day
Good lord no. Too much clarinet music.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 10, 2021, 08:24:21 PM
Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 10, 2021, 08:22:32 PM
Good lord no. Too much clarinet music.

Digitally recreated clarinet music, though
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 10, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Big fan of both The Thirteenth Floor and Dark City, Sky Movies seemed to have them on a lot around about 2000/01. Another contender: Cube. ExistenZ I saw in the cinema but don't think I've ever bothered to rewatch, I'd class it as the weakest of the bunch.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: chveik on September 10, 2021, 09:08:31 PM
there's a good badiou article about matrix/cube/existenz

i don't care about matrix that much but it was nice when blockbusters could produce some interesting film criticism
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blinder Data on September 10, 2021, 09:10:44 PM
not seen either but Gattaca and Equilibrium should probably be added to the list
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Goldentony on September 10, 2021, 09:39:23 PM
I think we need to name this particular subgenre something like New Labour Dystopia
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 10, 2021, 09:41:21 PM
Quote from: Butchers Blind on September 10, 2021, 11:06:45 AM
Thought that looked all rather dull. Just another rote action film.

There's very little action in the trailer and it's largely constructed around a conversation with a psychiatrist, with various "am I going mad?" bits, so I don't really understand this.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 10, 2021, 09:44:03 PM
Quote from: mothman on September 10, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Big fan of both The Thirteenth Floor and Dark City, Sky Movies seemed to have them on a lot around about 2000/01. Another contender: Cube. ExistenZ I saw in the cinema but don't think I've ever bothered to rewatch, I'd class it as the weakest of the bunch.

eXistenZ is a shaggy dog story, but the punchline is a corker.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 10, 2021, 10:50:06 PM
Yeah, which may be why I've never felt the need to see it again.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Lord Mandrake on September 10, 2021, 11:00:48 PM
But what if this time, the machines don't shave your head and beard?

If you fuck in the Matrix, do you fuck in real life?
No, the machines just wank you off.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Shaky on September 11, 2021, 05:09:27 AM
There are lot's of people going nuts over Keanu's look in this but sleep easy, he was pictured sans hair during filming.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 11, 2021, 05:37:00 AM
no morbis in thiss one? forr shaame
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Zetetic on September 11, 2021, 09:30:50 AM
Something about the trailer gives me hope that Lana was genuinely moved in someway to want to make this, so it's worth a shot. I'm not sure I could justify that given that anything I might point to in the trailer is faintly embarrassing.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 09:46:54 AM
Does Keanu Reeves have a contract in Hollywood now stipulating that his beard must never be shaved off regardless of his role?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 11, 2021, 05:37:00 AM
no morbis in thiss one? forr shaame

brian of morbis is canon now thanks to chnbl
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 09:49:14 AM
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.8923752.5797/ssrco,slim_fit_t_shirt,two_model,fafafa:ca443f4786,front,tall_portrait,750x1000.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 11, 2021, 10:36:55 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 09:46:54 AM
Does Keanu Reeves have a contract in Hollywood now stipulating that his beard must never be shaved off regardless of his role?

He may have been moving directly on to shooting John Wick 4 afterwards, so cutting and shaving would mean having to regrow them.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 11, 2021, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 09:46:54 AM
Does Keanu Reeves have a contract in Hollywood now stipulating that his beard must never be shaved off regardless of his role?
He was clean shaven in the new Bill and Ted film. He looked about 15 years older though, so maybe he should.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on September 11, 2021, 10:46:37 AM
Quote from: Shaky on September 11, 2021, 05:09:27 AM
There are lot's of people going nuts over Keanu's look in this but sleep easy, he was pictured sans hair during filming.

That's only cos his wig blew off

And beard
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 11, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
Who was it here whose avatar was Riker's[nb]Him out of Star Trek TNG[/nb] beard slowly lowering into Jonathan Frakes's[nb]The actor who plays him[/nb] beaming[nb]As in smiling, not as in transporting[/nb] face? Perhaps there should be an, if you will, Reevesian update.

EDIT: Ginyard (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6386)

(http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/riker-beard-star-trek.gif)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
Quote from: Bad Ambassador on September 11, 2021, 10:36:55 AM
He may have been moving directly on to shooting John Wick 4 afterwards, so cutting and shaving would mean having to regrow them.

Sounds bonkers to me.  Whatever happened to actors being so good that they can shave and then grow their beards back fast enough.


I bamlem Justice League moustache debacles.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 11, 2021, 01:24:33 PM
The beard and long hair make him look a bit like an ageing hapa Jesus though, which if you study the original films very carefully and have a high IQ you will notice is a subtle theme woven throughout
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 01:45:04 PM
oh yeah


(https://www.reelingreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/evanalmightypic.jpg)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 05:49:44 PM
Hmmm, trailer is okay, not sure what to make of it. Could be shite, could be good, we'll wait and see.

Laurence Fishburne must be doubly pissed over not only not being asked back but on top of that having Morpheus return with a different actor. Maybe Lana Wachowski had an unpublicised falling out with him or summit.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Ferris on September 11, 2021, 05:55:51 PM
I assumed Fishburne turned it down, and they recast it as a "Young" Morpheus type.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 05:57:07 PM
Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on September 11, 2021, 05:55:51 PMI assumed Fishburne turned it down, and they recast it as a "Young" Morpheus type.

Or maybe they didn't offer him enough moolah.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 11, 2021, 06:26:55 PM
If the Wachowskis really do feel like they have a story worth going back to this coalface for, then you'd think they'd do their best to get everyone back. So it is weird.

Not that I'm saying they're incapable of assholery. Was just reading J. Michael Straczynski's (who worked with them on Netflix show Sense8) book on writing, and he recalls a falling out he had with them (this was before Sense8 but they'd apparently known each other for years) after he wrote them a list of six key things he thought was wrong with Jupiter Ascending after seeing a preview. They were apparently massively offended and refused to forgive him until he apologised and admitted the movie was perfect as it is. When the film came out and everyone said the same things were wrong with it (everyone that saw it, that is, and there weren't many), I presume he didn't say he'd told them so...
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 07:04:20 PM
Quote from: mothman on September 11, 2021, 06:26:55 PMIf the Wachowskis really do feel like they have a story worth going back to this coalface for, then you'd think they'd do their best to get everyone back. So it is weird.

Julie Wachowksi isn't even involved. It's a solo Wachoski film.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Lord Mandrake on September 11, 2021, 07:27:45 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
Whatever happened to actors being so good that they can shave and then grow their beards back fast enough.

Oscar Issac can apparently go from clean shaven to full beard in 4 days. That's why he's the go to guy in tinseltown. Reeves's hair game is on the wane,   his curtains are held together with Dax and the beard never really filled in.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 11, 2021, 08:08:12 PM
Quote from: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 07:04:20 PM
Julie Wachowksi isn't even involved. It's a solo Wachoski film.

Julie?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 08:27:35 PM
Never heard of Julie?  She runs the tuck shop
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 11, 2021, 08:31:31 PM
There are so many Wachowskis, I can't keep track: Lana, Lilly, Julie, Grouchette, Chica, Harpy, Zeppina...
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 11:20:11 PM
Fuck's sake, sorry, Lilly Wachowski rather.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 12, 2021, 05:41:50 AM
There's some speculation that the reason Fishburne isn't back is because the real Morpheus is dead and the young version running around is a scam reboot trying to lure out the human resistance. It's a bit of a stretch but there is a glimpse of him in an Agent's suit-and-tie towards the end of the trailer so there might be something to it.

It does seem like there might have been story reasons not to have OG Morpheus around, unlike Weaving who supposedly couldn't turn up due to scheduling issues. Though the Wachowski's have form in just dropping people from their sequels, such as the Operator in the first Matrix who presumably got drunk on shore leave and was never seen again
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 06:42:15 AM
Maybe they should have found a time to film when Hugo Weaving was available and Keanu Reeves was allowed to shave.


Mind you it may work in this film's favour not to have Weaving in it.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: phantom_power on September 12, 2021, 09:12:58 AM
Quote from: 13 schoolyards on September 12, 2021, 05:41:50 AM
There's some speculation that the reason Fishburne isn't back is because the real Morpheus is dead and the young version running around is a scam reboot trying to lure out the human resistance. It's a bit of a stretch but there is a glimpse of him in an Agent's suit-and-tie towards the end of the trailer so there might be something to it.

It does seem like there might have been story reasons not to have OG Morpheus around, unlike Weaving who supposedly couldn't turn up due to scheduling issues. Though the Wachowski's have form in just dropping people from their sequels, such as the Operator in the first Matrix who presumably got drunk on shore leave and was never seen again

I think "in universe" Morpheus is dead so the recast is due to that rather than any beef with Fishburne
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Old Nehamkin on September 12, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Quote from: phantom_power on September 12, 2021, 09:12:58 AM
I think "in universe" Morpheus is dead so the recast is due to that rather than any beef with Fishburne

Didn't his death only occur in some defunct MMO game that nobody remembers or cares about, though?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 09:34:10 AM
Did Morpheus survive the third film?  Honestly can't remember him doing anything after that morale-boosting speech he gave before all the ravers some four hours earlier.


I recall a couple of asides with bit-characters, actually.  A woman who was maybe an old lover or something, and telling a commanding officer about prophecies.  But did these happen in the third film?  Why was he brushed aside to give that sycophantic wiener kid such prominence?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 12, 2021, 10:19:45 AM
On Marcus Chong: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2003/may/20/news

Hollywood is full of stories of actors who "got too big for their boots" and made excessive demands then found they were all too replaceable. That's not always the full or true story, mind. In this case, I noticed one line from his Wikipedia page:

QuoteThe documentary "The Marcus Chong Story" by Marcus Chong was released in 2018.

Bleakness ahoy! Ego? Or the only way he could have a voice? His filmography over the past 20 years is less than stellar...
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 12, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: mothman on September 11, 2021, 06:26:55 PM
J. Michael Straczynski's (who worked with them on Netflix show Sense8) book on writing, and he recalls a falling out he had with them (this was before Sense8 but they'd apparently known each other for years) after he wrote them a list of six key things he thought was wrong with Jupiter Ascending after seeing a preview.

Does it say what the six things were? I'm intrigued.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 12, 2021, 11:38:54 AM
No, unfortunately not. Would have liked to know. Get the impression it's not an episode he wanted to dwell on overly.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on September 12, 2021, 11:48:52 AM
1. The story
2. The characters
3. The dialogue
4. Catering
5. The Rik Waller soundtrack
6. Rik Waller at catering
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Glebe on September 12, 2021, 02:30:02 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 09:34:10 AM
Did Morpheus survive the third film?

He did indeed.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Custard on September 12, 2021, 03:27:08 PM
When the little girl painted the sky at the end, she Tippex-ed out Morpheus
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 12, 2021, 04:37:30 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 06:42:15 AM
Maybe they should have found a time to film when Hugo Weaving was available and Keanu Reeves was allowed to shave.


Weren't there a whole bunch of photos from last year of Reeves walking to or from set with no beard and a shaved head?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: An tSaoi on September 12, 2021, 05:38:30 PM
Quote from: Glebe on September 11, 2021, 11:20:11 PM
Fuck's sake, sorry, Lilly Wachowski rather.

Wait, the other one's trans too? This passed me by completely.

Good luck to her, fair play etc, but what are the chances of that? Two siblings being trans, is that common?

Edit: I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just interesting.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Spiteface on September 12, 2021, 05:54:18 PM
Quote from: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 06:42:15 AM
Maybe they should have found a time to film when Hugo Weaving was available and Keanu Reeves was allowed to shave.

They should have got the CGI team that worked on the Joss Whedon cut of Justice League.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 12, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: Spiteface on September 12, 2021, 05:54:18 PM
They should have got the CGI team that worked on the Joss Whedon cut of Justice League.

I did already bamlem that I'm afraid

Quote from: Replies From View on September 11, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
I bamlem Justice League moustache debacles.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Shaky on September 13, 2021, 12:25:12 AM
Quote from: 13 schoolyards on September 12, 2021, 04:37:30 PM
Weren't there a whole bunch of photos from last year of Reeves walking to or from set with no beard and a shaved head?

Yep, and he did some promo thing with Alex Winter sans hair.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: MojoJojo on September 13, 2021, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Shameless Custard on September 10, 2021, 08:00:04 PM
I liked Dark City, but can't remember much about it. Time to rewatch both, I think!

Two important things to remember about Dark City:
1) Kiefer Sutherland overacts terribly in it.
2) One of the main characters is Inspector Bumstead.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Chollis on September 13, 2021, 12:55:30 PM
honestly can't remember what even happens at the end of Revolutions and i'm not watching it again. can someone tell me. i don't know what's going on in this trailer but it'll be shit i reckon
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 13, 2021, 01:07:30 PM
The Machines agree a ceasefire with the humans while Neo defeats Smith, who's taking over the whole system and threatens to tank the Machine mainframe, destroying humans and Machines alike. Neo is blinded by someone who's been possessed by Smith in the real world but he and Trinity kill him. They travel to the Machine city, but Trinity dies when their hovercraft crashes. Neo fights Smith in the Matrix and wins but apparently dies. The Machines and the humans continue the ceasefire, while the Oracle watches the sun rising over the now-restored and not-that-sickly-green-any-more city.

I watched it again recently, and you can see a more interesting film trying to get out of the sequels, but too many of the ideas are quite poorly developed. As mentioned earlier, Neo's powers have been downgraded so he no longer has god-level control of the Matrix and the slow-motion is used for everything, rather than just things which are only possible in the Matrix. Neo crashing a sentinel at the end of Reloaded is never explained.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Chollis on September 13, 2021, 01:10:52 PM
^cheers!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 13, 2021, 03:40:36 PM
QuoteNeo crashing a sentinel at the end of Reloaded is never explained.

But it handily means he can crash a load of them whilst travelling through the machine city.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on September 13, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
Quote from: Bad Ambassador on September 13, 2021, 01:07:30 PM
Neo crashing a sentinel at the end of Reloaded is never explained.

The obvious explanation is that they're still in the Matrix, just a different level designed as a catch for the rebels. It's not like any of that 'real' world made much sense anyway.[nb]How did the first escapees survive when you need your real body repairing with days/weeks/months of treatment? Why did the machines leave it until the films before trying to destroy the place? Machine thinking would suggest attacking the place ASAP. etc. etc.[/nb]
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Spiteface on September 13, 2021, 04:08:34 PM
Quote from: MojoJojo on September 13, 2021, 11:43:29 AM
Two important things to remember about Dark City:
1) Kiefer Sutherland overacts terribly in it.
2) One of the main characters is Inspector Bumstead.

3 & 4) Melissa George's breasts.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on September 13, 2021, 04:17:44 PM
Quote from: Blumf on September 13, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
How did the first escapees survive when you need your real body repairing with days/weeks/months of treatment?
And what did they eat? Did they find puddles of that slimy gruel stuff just sitting on the ground?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 13, 2021, 04:24:09 PM
The cross which comes out of Neo's body as he apparently dies to kill Smith is the most on the nose bit of symbolism ive ever seen. At the time i found it insultingly shit.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 13, 2021, 04:25:26 PM
Quote from: Blumf on September 13, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
The obvious explanation is that they're still in the Matrix, just a different level designed as a catch for the rebels. It's not like any of that 'real' world made much sense anyway.

I assumed - and it was a big assumption - that Neo's ability to control "The Matrix" basically meant he could now hack all computers using his brain's natural wi-fi or something. Which you'd think would have been really handy back at Zion but I guess he was basically a nuclear option for the humans - once he got to the machine city he could have just brain zapped everyone and trashed the place if they didn't agree to his scheme to... die in the Matrix?

Quote from: Blumf on September 13, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
.[nb]How did the first escapees survive when you need your real body repairing with days/weeks/months of treatment? Why did the machines leave it until the films before trying to destroy the place? Machine thinking would suggest attacking the place ASAP. etc. etc.[/nb]

Presumably the first time around surviving regular humans left over from the war (and still eating tinned food at la every post apocalyptic movie ever) would have been grabbing humans out of the battery and fixing them up, and then every time after that the machines left just enough people behind after going murder happy in Zion to start the process over again. Because humans are their crops and when "The One" happens it's time to harvest or something oh god I've thought about this too much.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 13, 2021, 06:06:02 PM
You can just say the first few humans were taken out of The Matrix by the machines each time to set up the whole loop of Zion/the one.

Dont really care, the setup ceases to be interesting once it gets past "what if the real world were just a computer simulation run by machines" into "what if that real world was also potentially a simulation". It just gets intentionally confusing and just unfufilling.

Remember the reboot at the end of Revolutions is the seventh one: aaaaaah like the bible.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on September 13, 2021, 06:14:57 PM
Quote from: Lord Mandrake on September 11, 2021, 07:27:45 PM
Oscar Issac can apparently go from clean shaven to full beard in 4 days. That's why he's the go to guy in tinseltown. Reeves's hair game is on the wane,   his curtains are held together with Dax and the beard never really filled in.
You do wonder when actors go for that lank greasy thing if they're afraid to wash their hair in case it falls out. Better to cover it with scum.

Here's a pic of Keanu with short hair for Matrix 4 (https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/10/10128865/keanu-reeves-buzz-cut-matrix-4). Looks fine, although someone should cook him a good dinner. Hopefully when he decides to kick ass he'll shave his hair and get buff in a montage to some pumping Kenny Loggins song.
(https://www.refinery29.com/images/10128955.jpg?format=webp&width=340&height=408&quality=85)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 13, 2021, 06:42:59 PM
Michel Roux Jnr.?!
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 13, 2021, 08:12:57 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on September 13, 2021, 06:14:57 PM
Looks fine, although someone should cook him a good dinner.

Maybe it's for the slimy incubator scene stuff, where they always look a bit emaciated.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: samadriel on September 14, 2021, 04:49:36 AM
Quote from: Blumf on September 13, 2021, 03:48:51 PMWhy did the machines leave it until the films before trying to destroy the place? Machine thinking would suggest attacking the place ASAP. etc. etc.
The machines didn't know where Zion was. I think it was Cypher who offered them the location of Zion in exchange for being put back into the Matrix?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 14, 2021, 05:40:19 AM
Yet another plot hole: in the first film they're torturing Morpheus so he'll give them the location of Zion (well, the "codes to the Zion mainframe", which would be pretty useless without knowing where it is). He escapes without giving it up, then in that Animatrix short set just before the second film the machines have somehow found out where it is without him and have started drilling towards it.

And then it's revealed that they've always known where Zion is because every couple of decades they blow it up to start the cycle all over again, so what was the point of capturing Morpheus in the first place?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 14, 2021, 08:59:50 AM
They always knew where it was. They just didn't move against it until the appropriate time, after The One has appeared in the Matrix.

All Cypher offered was access to Morpheus. They wanted the codes from him but he didn't know them. Presumably plan A is to hack into the city and destroy it when Neo has his encounter with the god architect. Plan B is the big frontal attack they ended up going with.
Title: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Captain Z on September 14, 2021, 09:32:55 AM
You'd have thought after a couple of times the machines would come up with a version of the matrix that didn't go wrong.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 14, 2021, 10:30:51 AM
Well yeah, that was the plot of the original films
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on September 14, 2021, 11:33:42 AM
Should have used cows instead of humans for their power station.

Except that's the huge plot hole in the entire thing. How can you generate energy with living beings? It will always cost more energy to maintain them than you'd get out.

The get-out (and reason not to use cows) is that they were using human brains as a kind of co-processor and/or the machines had some kind of moral or practical compunction not to make humans extinct.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 14, 2021, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on September 14, 2021, 08:59:50 AM
They always knew where it was. They just didn't move against it until the appropriate time, after The One has appeared in the Matrix.

All Cypher offered was access to Morpheus. They wanted the codes from him but he didn't know them. Presumably plan A is to hack into the city and destroy it when Neo has his encounter with the god architect. Plan B is the big frontal attack they ended up going with.

Wanted to knock on the door and wait first, right.  Failing that, smash the door down.


After all, these are machines.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 14, 2021, 11:42:07 AM
Quote from: Blumf on September 14, 2021, 11:33:42 AM
Should have used cows instead of humans for their power station.

Except that's the huge plot hole in the entire thing. How can you generate energy with living beings? It will always cost more energy to maintain them than you'd get out.

The get-out (and reason not to use cows) is that they were using human brains as a kind of co-processor and/or the machines had some kind of moral or practical compunction not to make humans extinct.

The brains-as-computer was the original idea, but this was changed in rewrites because executives thought the public wouldn't understand it (meaning the executives didn't understand it).
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 14, 2021, 11:45:10 AM
Quote from: Blumf on September 14, 2021, 11:33:42 AM
The get-out (and reason not to use cows) is that they were using human brains as a kind of co-processor and/or the machines had some kind of moral or practical compunction not to make humans extinct.

I read somewhere that this was the original concept of the film, or at least one of the ideas they initially stole.  And then it was changed to batteries further down the line, for some reason.  Probably because Morpheus holding a battery is about as complex as you can feasibly get for people who think these films are deep.


Edit:  Bad Ambassador snuck in before me while I was wanking as I wrote that
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 14, 2021, 12:10:27 PM
The machines kept humanity alive because they loved harvesting its cum

Wet dreams are when a wankbot flies up to your pod and tosses you off while you're asleep
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 14, 2021, 12:12:22 PM
Use the correct term, please:  sissy milking.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 14, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
The thing is, while the Architect and others at that level know the true nature of Zion, programs like Agents don't. So Agents just carry on trying to hunt rogue humans in the Matrix, and destroy Zion the only way they as programs know/can - virtually, by hacking it.

Thus Agents like Smith are almost pathetic figures - they rule in hell, but it's a hell as much for them as for the proper inhabitants. Smith may not want to be in the Matrix, but outside he's a nothing. And his belief that he'll get some sort of reward or victory if he destroys Zion is, we know, actually an illusion - the destruction of Zion is all part of the plan, a firebreak/reset/pressure valve to maintain a status quo that will keep him where he least wants to be.

It's no wonder the "liberated" Smith went off the rails. Even if the reason for him becoming a Free Elf isn't ever really explained, and comes across as just a hamfisted plot device to keep a character around who had been "killed off" - and as such, yet another black mark against the sequels.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 14, 2021, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: mothman on September 14, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
It's no wonder the "liberated" Smith went off the rails. Even if the reason for him becoming a Free Elf isn't ever really explained, and comes across as just a hamfisted plot device to keep a character around who had been "killed off" - and as such, yet another black mark against the sequels.

It's mentioned that deleted programs like Smith are supposed to return to the Source - basically the Recycle Bin - but he didn't want to, so hung around in the Matrix. It's not a great explanation, but it's there.

I'm looking forward to rereading my posts in three months when I've forgotten what happened in the sequels again.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: 13 schoolyards on September 14, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: Bad Ambassador on September 14, 2021, 11:42:07 AM
The brains-as-computer was the original idea, but this was changed in rewrites because executives thought the public wouldn't understand it (meaning the executives didn't understand it).

Do they ever come out and say the Matrix isn't using human brains as its hardware? I assumed it was some kind of mass hallucination the machines were guiding and controlling, so at some level the people plugged in were also the hardware and software that made it work.

Morpheus casually drops in a get out of jail free card for the whole "humans as batteries doesn't make sense" thing when he says the machines use humans "combined with a form of fusion". I remember reading in some spin-off material somewhere that the human electricity was needed to ignite the fusion (somehow), and that the machines weren't solely running off human volts

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 14, 2021, 06:03:30 PM
In the Matrix sequels why is Smith privy to what has happened in previous versions of the Matrix?  "It's happening exactly as it did before *smug face*" "...well, not exactly!  *smug face*"

How identical were Neo's actions to the previous iterations of The One?  It's like they're measuring his every fart and saying "yep 8.48am, 9.26am, 10.02am etc, this is playing out exactly the same as last time!"  "Well not exactly, hahahaaha!!"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Chedney Honks on September 14, 2021, 07:57:40 PM
I recently rewatched the first one. Some great sequences and although it's naff in many ways, you can go with it for the good stuff. Nothing wrong with a slab of cheese. Shame the Wachowskis started literally drinking their own shit soon after. Pair of absolute cunts.

Separately, Speed Racer is good, but very much an overrated 'underrated masterpiece'. It's visually distinct but far far too busy for the driving sequences to really give you that visceral rush. It's just a shitload of motion blur. The effects outside the racing sequences look very poor these days, as well. Redline, the anime, cunts it into the wall and it blows up instantly torching the driver and traumatising the spectators for life.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 14, 2021, 09:44:42 PM
man i watched Redline the other week and as fucking stupid as it was, it was consistently engaging for how incredible it looked throughout. and i'll watch it again.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on September 14, 2021, 11:55:17 PM
Redline is brilliantly bonkers. I love how even throwaway characters have so much detail to them, visually and personality.

Not caught Speed Racer yet, but the few bits I've seen look fun.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 15, 2021, 11:55:24 AM
I thought Speed Racer was cool before thinking that Speed Racer was cool was cool.

Not even heard of Redline, but definitely going to check it out now.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 12:08:56 PM
Redpill, redspeed, redline of presumably cocaine, what's the deal with drugs and red in the chowski battleverse?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 15, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
Just to say the whole of Redline is on Youtube for some reason, in good quality (probably better than DVD). Even weirder when it has bare breasts in the middle. dub but it's a good dub. When you're watching something for the animation i'd rather not be reading dialogue.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: dissolute ocelot on September 15, 2021, 12:54:28 PM
I'm not a neurologist or computer scientist, but surely it doesn't make much sense to use human beings as computers if you're also running a simulation of every human being inside the computer, presumably requiring one human brain to simulate each human's presence in the Matrix, leaving you no computing power to do anything else. Unless most people weren't actually replicated in the Matrix, or only replicated to the extent of the computational power of a ZX81.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 15, 2021, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on September 15, 2021, 12:54:28 PM
I'm not a neurologist or computer scientist, but surely it doesn't make much sense to use human beings as computers if you're also running a simulation of every human being inside the computer, presumably requiring one human brain to simulate each human's presence in the Matrix, leaving you no computing power to do anything else. Unless most people weren't actually replicated in the Matrix, or only replicated to the extent of the computational power of a ZX81.

It doesn't make sense anyway.

"Why are the humans in the Matrix?"
"So the Machines can use their brains' processing power."
"What for?"
"Generating the Matrix."
"So they're using their brain power solely to imprison them? Why not just kill them?"
"Who am I again?"

I suspect there was some other use for the processing power in earlier versions of the script that got lost and rewritten when the change to batteries was made.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 15, 2021, 02:13:14 PM
It appeals to the "we only use 10% of our brain" myth
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SOMK on September 15, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
if you used 100% of your body at any one time you'd make an awful mess.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: SOMK on September 15, 2021, 03:01:49 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on September 15, 2021, 12:54:28 PM
I'm not a neurologist or computer scientist, but surely it doesn't make much sense to use human beings as computers if you're also running a simulation of every human being inside the computer, presumably requiring one human brain to simulate each human's presence in the Matrix, leaving you no computing power to do anything else. Unless most people weren't actually replicated in the Matrix, or only replicated to the extent of the computational power of a ZX81.

It's gnosticism with AI replacing the demiurge innit?

The idea that reality itself is a hell created by naughty God to keep us away from the true God, computers being our most advanced technology and so being used as a relatable device to portray its metaphor. In terms of it making sense from a practical point of view, I've read (though it's disputed) that given that hydrogen fusion is relatively weak in terms of the minuscule energy that is released when two hydrogen atoms combine to make helium, that the actual mass by mass level of heat produced at the centre of the sun quite weak, a mass of matter from the centre of the sun of a given weight only produces there same heat as the equivalent mass of pile of compost (the heat of the sun, being a phenomena of its huge size, gravity, forces of convection as opposed to the ferocity with which it is burning), a human being being ten times hotter than that. Considering how there is a finite amount of rare earth minerals necessary for building a hypothetical planet-sized AI, you could squint and see a kind of plausibility to using human brains for your processing (the human brain remains the best and most efficient 'computer' in the known universe, it being very debatable if human-level consciousness can ever be achieved in an AI (this very in depth discussion with Naom Chomsky goes into some of the problems with it -> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/11/noam-chomsky-on-where-artificial-intelligence-went-wrong/261637/ ) and the human brains needing something to give them at least an illusion of life to keep them compliant and smoothly running.

An AI would not necessarily 'want' anything other than to maintain itself in whatever form comes to hand (and the matrix might be merely the only level the AI exists where it is comprehendible for humans, so it just might seem like all the matrix wants to do is perpetuate the matrix), human brains offering a low hanging fruit in terms of readily available power/processing source, in a round about way humans do similar with farming animals, there are vastly more efficient ways of producing proteins than via red meat, hypothetically every human on the planet tomorrow could swear off it, but for various reasons (inertia, habit, jobs, industry pressure, culture, political, dietary preference blah blah blah... most of which would be completely incomprehensible to your average cow BTW) we don't.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mister Six on September 15, 2021, 04:55:06 PM
Quote from: SOMK on September 15, 2021, 03:01:49 PM
It's gnosticism with AI replacing the demiurge innit?

Yes, which is again pilfered from The Invisibles, which is consciously steeped in Gnosticism by writer Grant Morrison.

Morrison has bemoaned the Wachoskis not recognising the Gnostic roots of the text and pivoting to a more trad Christian Messiah model in the sequels.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 04:55:52 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 15, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
Even weirder when it has bare breasts in the middle

You'd expect them to be on the arse?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: SOMK on September 15, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
if you used 100% of your body at any one time you'd make an awful mess.

I'd like it
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: SOMK on September 15, 2021, 03:01:49 PM
there are vastly more efficient ways of producing proteins than via red meat, hypothetically every human on the planet tomorrow could swear off it, but for various reasons (inertia, habit, jobs, industry pressure, culture, political, dietary preference blah blah blah... most of which would be completely incomprehensible to your average cow BTW) we don't.

I'll be honest:  if I wanted reassurance that eating red meat was ok, I wouldn't first of all ask the opinions of an average cow.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 15, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
Isn't it that the humans are being used as batteries, i.e., not to generate energy, but to store it? In which case, why aren't all the humans immensely fat?
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: olliebean on September 15, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
Isn't it that the humans are being used as batteries, i.e., not to generate energy, but to store it? In which case, why aren't all the humans immensely fat?

Because they are the AA kind
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Zetetic on September 15, 2021, 10:01:08 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on September 15, 2021, 12:54:28 PM
I'm not a neurologist or computer scientist, but surely it doesn't make much sense to use human beings as computers if you're also running a simulation of every human being inside the computer, presumably requiring one human brain to simulate each human's presence in the Matrix, leaving you no computing power to do anything else.
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 15, 2021, 02:13:14 PM
It appeals to the "we only use 10% of our brain" myth

Eh, if you wanted to come up with a silly but vaguely pleasing explanation you'd note that all the humans in the Matrix aren't having to use any of their perceptual machinery for actually perceiving anything, so you can sort-of imagine running it reverse - gesturing at how the hippocampus helps reconstruct state elsewhere in your brain when remembering experiences - to create a shared hallucinatory reality.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 16, 2021, 12:08:19 AM
i think it's an ok plot device that the machines don't feel comfortable with genociding their parents so they make a shitty potato clock out of them with "a form of fusion".
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: popcorn on September 16, 2021, 12:45:39 AM
Quote from: olliebean on September 15, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
Isn't it that the humans are being used as batteries, i.e., not to generate energy, but to store it? In which case, why aren't all the humans immensely fat?

that would be good, Neo wakes up in the matrix and he's just a gigantic fatty. instead of asking "Why do my eyes hut?" he'd be like "Why am I such a fatty" and Mopheus wouild say "You've never done any exercise before"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 16, 2021, 10:49:42 AM
the fatrix
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on September 16, 2021, 10:59:43 AM
"Whoa, I know Escoffier"
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mothman on September 16, 2021, 06:40:10 PM
That's a bit harsh, Gilou is chunky, sure, but it's muscle not flab.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 16, 2021, 06:54:56 PM
Why aren't they consistent with where they put the hole things from their heads downwards.  They're all at different heights, some have them on their necks and others don't.  Surely they would be done following a template not have bespoke positioning for each individual human - that would take ages.

Also, when Trinity jumps out the window and the agent follows her, he's shooting consistently in exactly the same spot and only one of the bullets hits her.


All annoying things

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: idunnosomename on September 17, 2021, 12:34:58 AM
imagine if they put the data spike thing up their bum
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 19, 2021, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 17, 2021, 12:34:58 AM
imagine if they put the data spike thing up their bum

probably wouldn't lock in as easily, but worth a shot
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on September 19, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on September 17, 2021, 12:34:58 AM
imagine if they put the data spike thing up their bum

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3VtOvHLOaYg/mqdefault.jpg)
(https://external-preview.redd.it/K20esBfG1LMl1r6ED4jfb1iFahMvak06MU5Bt9rpjwI.jpg?auto=webp&s=6b1d39f4d4a62a1fe1c69f0f3f0b84565b7b201d)
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 19, 2021, 10:55:52 PM
I think he's reached broadcast depth
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 19, 2021, 11:51:45 PM
BUM FU
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mobias on September 22, 2021, 10:25:52 PM
Just caught the trailer to this. It does look interesting but the trailer to Reloaded made it look fucking amazing back in 2003 and it ended being a total mess. It did have some good big screen set pieces though.

The one thing this reboot does have going for it is that the pedigree of the co-writers is pretty high. Its co-written by David Mitchel (Cloud Atlas) and Aleksandar Hemon, who's an award winning essayist and screen writer. The other Wachowski brother, sorry sister, has nothing to do with it this time.

As to Laurence Fishburne not being in it. He's 60 years old now and fairly chunky as far as I can see. He certainly doesn't look like a man who's on top of his kung-fu moves anyway.

Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 22, 2021, 11:51:22 PM
Quote from: mobias on September 22, 2021, 10:25:52 PM
As to Laurence Fishburne not being in it. He's 60 years old now and fairly chunky as far as I can see. He certainly doesn't look like a man who's on top of his kung-fu moves anyway.

I suspect his residual self image would still be his earlier self version
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: mobias on September 23, 2021, 11:57:53 AM
Apparently Agent Smith was very much in the original script for the new movie and Hugo Weaving was well up for reprising the roll but his busy schedule of current theatre work meant he just wasn't available. Smith was fantastic in the first film but I always thought they over indulged in that character with the sequels.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Replies From View on September 23, 2021, 12:14:49 PM
I'm glad Smith won't be in it.  That story is over.


It's a bit like when The Thick of It became the Malcolm Tucker show when it could have instead been satirising/critiquing what the coalition were doing in real life at that time.  The show lost its sharp focus when it fell in love with Tucker so much that it couldn't leave its characterisation of New Labour behind.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: olliebean on September 23, 2021, 08:51:39 PM
Quote from: mobias on September 22, 2021, 10:25:52 PMAs to Laurence Fishburne not being in it. He's 60 years old now and fairly chunky as far as I can see. He certainly doesn't look like a man who's on top of his kung-fu moves anyway.

If it weren't for the bloody woke brigade, they could just black up Charlie Brooker.
Title: Re: The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)
Post by: Blumf on October 06, 2021, 03:17:45 PM
EDIT: Had the thread ripped out from under me. Reposted in the right place.