My Foetus: 11.05pm C4

[Morrisfan82]

My Foetus
Filmmaker Julia Black is heavily pregnant. In this unique documentary she takes the viewer on her personal journey to find out whether she could still be pro-choice when confronted by the reality of abortion.

This half-hour film is on tonight on Channel 4.

It features footage of the actual abortion procedure, and has been pre-lambasted for this widely (here are some recent news articles relating to it).

It will inevitably be uncomfortable viewing, but as this was publicised & I thought about it more, I came to realise how little I actually know about the process of abortion, let alone the psychological and emotional impact of such a decision.

Anyway, as I think this hasn't been mentioned on here yet, I thought I'd offer this as a heads-up to anyone who may feel like watching.

[Purple Tentacle]

Does it have Robert Lindsay or Ardel O'Hanlan in it?

[Rats]

I think it involves a stick with a maggot on the end.

[fanny splendid]

It's an easy enough process to understand.

A future mother becomes a murderer.

[butnut]

I wonder what music will be on in the background?

"Love will tear us apart?"

[jutl]

It's an easy enough process to understand.

A future mother becomes a murderer.

Now there's a salty and controversial view for us liberals to savour. Can I ask if you have any tolerance of early early abortion, or is it all murder? I assume you'd agree that wanking and menstruation aren't murder?

[fanny splendid]

It's an easy enough process to understand.

A future mother becomes a murderer.

Now there's a salty and controversial view for us liberals to savour. Can I ask if you have any tolerance of early early abortion, or is it all murder? I assume you'd agree that wanking and menstruation aren't murder?

Ignore that, I was trolling.

Sorry.

[dirkfunk]

someone i know paid for an abortion on a credit card

this seemed strange to me at the time

it isn't

[Nearly Annually]

Heh, "please ignore" doesn't shovel much shit rouwnd'ere, boy ...

It's an easy enough process to understand.

A future mother becomes a murderer.

... but you gave yourself away with the word "future." A real pro-lifer wouldn't say that. I did think for a minute it was something the aliens had told you though.

And yes, jutl, wanking is a sin, and so is being a woman.

[butnut]

And yes, jutl, wanking is a sin, and so is being a woman.

Does that mean that when a woman wanks it's a double sin? And are the two sins then cancelled so that it becomes a 'good thing'?

Or does Peter Simon run on and do a physical challenge?

[smoker]

what about wanking while menstruating?

[jutl]

Ignore that, I was trolling.

Sorry.

Damn - and I was just about to agree with you too...

[Bogey]

Oh it's just no fun when everyone has roughly the same gay liberal opinions. Can't someone get their dad to join in or something?

[Rats]

No matter how gay and liberal I am, I'm not letting my dad join in.

[fanny splendid]

[serious mode]
I'm a selfish hypocrite as far as this subject is concerned.
[/serious mode]

[MojoJojo]

They discussed this a week a so ago on richard and judy....
I can't remeber the details that well, but said the late stage abortions are done either by inducing premature birth, or by a surgeon dismembering the baby and pulling it out bit by bit.

There was some mention of these baby bits (or foetus fillets, for pro-choice people) being dropped into a bucket between his legs... but I don't think they were going to show that.

[Rats]

Why do I find that funny? It's bloody horrific!

[fanny splendid]

I did think for a minute it was something the aliens had told you though.

I have no memory of the aliens saying anything, just of them being there...

*oops*

I've said too much...

[Ambient Sheep]

...late stage abortions are done either by inducing premature birth, or by a surgeon dismembering the baby and pulling it out bit by bit...

...often aided by a surgical vacuum cleaner, apparently.

Late-stage abortions are seriously not-nice.  I remember reading an interview with a nurse who said that a foetus that was prematurely induced was quite clearly alive (it was crying), but she was told to throw it in the bin anyway, and was positively refused permission to put it into an ICU.

I feel sick now, and shan't be watching this programme.  I read about it a few days ago myself, and I know that I just won't cope.

When things have got to that stage, I think people should remember the other "a"-word.  Adoption.

However - as a general, not specific rule -  I think that the "pro-life" brigade can go fuck themselves.

[jutl]

...late stage abortions are done either by inducing premature birth, or by a surgeon dismembering the baby and pulling it out bit by bit...

...often aided by a surgical vacuum cleaner, apparently.

Late-stage abortions are seriously not-nice.  I remember reading an interview with a nurse who said that a foetus that was prematurely induced was quite clearly alive (it was crying), but she was told to throw it in the bin anyway, and was positively refused permission to put it into an ICU.

I feel sick now, and shan't be watching this programme.  I read about it a few days ago myself, and I know that I just won't cope.

When things have got to that stage, I think people should remember the other "a"-word.  Adoption.

However - as a general, not specific rule -  I think that the "pro-life" brigade can go fuck themselves.

Yes - it's one of those moral battlefields where quite a lot of decent middle ground has been destroyed in the struggle. Clearly at some point between being a single cell and a born baby, a line has to be drawn. The only real advantage of the pro-choice lobby is that their moral convictions permit some flexibility as to where that line is drawn. Pro-lifers tend to not be able to discuss flexibility sensibly, even though they don't advocate funerals for the menstrual material of early miscarriages, which they really ought to is they are being consistent. As I get older I find it harder to value an adult's ability to direct their life and make their choices over an unborn child's right to even make one choice.

[gazzyk1ns]

More of a general comment as opposed to one specifically about abortion:

I never like arguments which consist of "that's horrible", or "that makes me feel sick". That does not mean that the thing in question is wrong. Plenty of things are disgusting and/or horrific to 99.9% of people but that has nothing to do with whether it's necessary or correct.

I'm not sure I believe that "crying foetus in the bin" story is without exaggeration, Sheep... I just tried writing here a fairly detailed explanation of why that is, but it was just unintentionally comical. I reckon the retelling of that might have been written to persuade as opposed to inform, though.

Even if it's true then it must be one of the most extreme cases, I don't think you should ever judge something "generally" because of extreme examples.

EDIT: Heh, just read all that back.. talk about an extremely basic argument strung out a bit. Take it with a pinch of salt, I dunno, I think my brain has melted.

[Rats]

I'll not be watching, I hate anything like that, that's probably why I find it funny. Loved the hoover bit sheepy. It is a tricky one, especially with the whole women's rights thing. You really do have to take each case on it's own don't you?

[Ambient Sheep]

Pro-lifers tend to not be able to discuss flexibility sensibly, even though they don't advocate funerals for the menstrual material of early miscarriages, which they really ought to is they are being consistent.

Quite.  An ex-girlfriend of mine had some of those.  Her periods were massively irregular anyway (she had endometriosis), but on at least two occasions she had, after a two-month-or-so break, a very heavy and "lumpy" (her words, not mine) period.  Perhaps we should have sent it off to the PL people?

[Ambient Sheep]

I never like arguments which consist of "that's horrible", or "that makes me feel sick". That does not mean that the thing in question is wrong.

Of course not, but the thing you're missing is that particular line wasn't part of any kind of argument.  I was merely expressing my gut emotions about late abortion techniques and my being unable to watch the programme.  I didn't start airing any sort of argument until the following lines, although I appreciate that it may not have looked like that.

I'm not sure I believe that "crying foetus in the bin" story is without exaggeration, Sheep...

How rude of you.  ;-)

I reckon the retelling of that might have been written to persuade as opposed to inform, though... Even if it's true then it must be one of the most extreme cases

Knowing my reading history it was almost certainly a serious article in one out of the Graun/Observer/Indy/Indy-on-Sunday, not the Mail on Sunday or some pro-life scandal sheet.  It was a long time ago now, but from what I remember I got the impression that it was indeed an extreme case, but true enough.  The article as a whole seemed pretty fairly balanced.

I don't think you should ever judge something "generally" because of extreme examples.

Maybe not, but then again foetal development doesn't vary *that* much between cases.  If one 22-week-old foetus can cry when aborted, I expect others can.  What's the current record for the earliest premature baby, I wonder?

Damn you Gazzy, you've got me arguing the pro-lifer's point-of-view!!  :-)

[jutl]

You can't have an abortion after 24 weeks. Premature babies born at week 24 have a 50% survival rate apparently, sinking to 2% at 22 weeks. So there's a small but significant crossover.

[Ambient Sheep]

You can't have an abortion after 24 weeks. Premature babies born at week 24 have a 50% survival rate apparently, sinking to 2% at 22 weeks. So there's a small but significant crossover.

Thanks jutl, you saved me the bother of doing the research myself.

Meanwhile I was just about to post something else.  While looking for the "baby in the bin" story mentioned earlier (I failed to find it, probably because it predates the Graun's archive), I found this heartbreaking story of a woman who decided to abort her Down's baby at 23 weeks.  I was going to do one of my usual précis jobbies on it, but shan't for two reasons: firstly because I'd end up quoting so much that anyone interested might as well just read it all, and secondly because it was upsetting enough to read the first time.  Basically she had to take pills to induce (an 11-hour) labour three days later; during which wait the baby was still alive and kicking inside of her.

In case anyone gets me wrong - which given my posts on this subject so far would be easy to do - I'm not condemning this woman in the slightest for what she did.  And I mean that.  Fuck knows it's a difficult decision.

[zozman]

I remember reading a PJ O' Rourke book a bit back, which had a go at liberals (no surprise there then).  He was talking about how a society that can kill unborn babies, but not kill convicted murderers was obviously a bit fucked-up.  Difficult to compare the two really, but it made me think.

I like PJ but he can get a bit, um, American at times.....  I remember he described his overwhelming patriotism once when he drove a Ferrari.  Now what's THAT all about?

[MonkeyDrummer]

I found

i wonder what she'd do faced with the same situation again. She doesn't say.

[chand]

In case anyone gets me wrong - which given my posts on this subject so far would be easy to do - I'm not condemning this woman in the slightest for what she did.  And I mean that.  Fuck knows it's a difficult decision.

Absolutely. I recently had an argument with someone who'd bought the line that the country is awash with people who use abortion as a contraceptive, happily having abortions with the same careless attitude they take towards having a shit. But for most people it's an utterly heart-wrenching decision, and not taken at all lightly.

[chand]

I remember reading a PJ O' Rourke book a bit back, which had a go at liberals (no surprise there then).  He was talking about how a society that can kill unborn babies, but not kill convicted murderers was obviously a bit fucked-up.  Difficult to compare the two really, but it made me think.

Well, most people I know who oppose the death penalty do so because it can lead to innocent people being wrongfully killed, and is also as much to do with the families of the alleged murderer as it is with the murderer himself. My experience of liberals is that few of them actually condone murder.

You could make the same argument about a right-wing society which wouldn't want to kill unborn feotuses, but happily bombs people to death from the sky in Iraq. Swings and roundabouts, innit.