Basra suicide attacks kill at least 68 - lots of children

[elderford]

that terrorists should attempt to try and maintain a degree of humanitarianism

There's another word that can be made out of the word terrorists, let's try and see if we can all find it.

[modgrover]

t'here is no way to excuse/rationalize suicide bombings against civilians, no matter how wooly or liberal you are.'

Quite right. The sooner we stop wringing our hands and passing around the herbal 'yin restorative' tea and make some tough decisions to deal with the type of cunts who blow up civilians the better off everybody will be. I cant believe the devils advocate, justifying bullshit thats gets bandied about by some bleeding hearts who 'reilly reilly hate'western society and money, and business and stuff'. Its pathetic. We should blow them all to hell. No mercy

[Capuchin]

Does it make it okay to blow up military types though who are being paid to get blown-up?
Terrorism exists in a moral sludge. '
good' and 'bad' terrorists?
Maybe there are 'good' terrorists in Iraq who only go after soldiers and there are seperate nutters who don't care who dies...

[elderford]

I think suicide bombing is an advancement in urban guerilla war tactics.

It's the opposite of hightech, causes a maximum amount of desruption and bad feeling from the populace with regards to stop and search in the attempted prevention of it.
It only takes one person to actually mount an attack, and as every mission is a suicide one, it isn't necessary to risk others in trying to ensure the survival of fighters. Imagine the logistics involved in say attacking an Israeli police station if you intended to supply and arm as well as preserve the lives of as many of your fighters as possible.

It also creates instant martyr posterboys and icons.

It doesn't require weapons, weapons training, any real training, tactics, leadership skill development, supply and information lines, communications, only some explosive, a person and someone else who is foolhardy enough at the wheel to give them a lift, assuming they don't drive themselves).

What's the point in an urban area of trying to lure a stronger opponent into a fight on your terms, when their technology and weaponery is so much better than your own.

It's not worth trying to seize the enemies weapons as they're too clever and fiddly to do much with, and besides they will be relying on air support and you won't get far in a stolen tank.

Besides it is being reported that the British troops in Iraq are being accused by some of the locals as being responsible by not preventing suicide bombings from happening.

All this chaos and instability is caused by one person and a small amount of explosives (although I believe this week's involved five near simultaneous explosions, but that still means a minimum of only five people in five non-specialist civilian vehicles needed to carry out the attacks).

[smoker]

i think there's a lot more people required to organize a suicide bombing. you need someone to brainwash the poor sap enough to actually do it, someone to get hold of the explosives, someone to rig the system up, someone to find the best target etc.

[fanny splendid]

No doubt those who are doing the blowing-up believe their targets are legitimate, and probably that there are no innocents, be they women or children.

[elderford]

I accept the point, but finding an angry young man, getting him to wear the explosives, driving him to his target (to prevent a change of mind), is far less taxing for a terrorist cell than having to obtain a variety of weapons and ammunition, a secure training area, training program, food, clothing, equipment, bed and breakfast, etc.

How much brain washing do you need? a week, a fortnight? Are they removed from family friends, or can they still go home of an evening so it is not necessary to even feed and water them? (talking of say Palestine as opposed to Iraq where they're probably a bit more undercover and hardcore).

Also with regards to brainwashing, how strong is the cultural acceptance of martyrdom in Islamic communities? I understand in Palestine you get a couple of portrait murals on local walls and your family receives a small stipend as opposed to lots of people tutting and saying down with this sort of thing.

[smoker]

i think these are questions you should really be asking kingboy_d. he's the resident terrorwhore

[elderford]

Funnily enough I was just thinking about him, because it is usual for a terrorist cell to be quite small in number, but to rely on a large network of non-participatory sympathisers. Which is what he was being regarded as in his post by the bloke in the chip shop wasn't it?

[european son]

No doubt those who are doing the blowing-up believe their targets are legitimate, and probably that there are no innocents, be they women or children.

indeed, the late Sheik Yassin was reported to have said that "Islam is against the killing of civilians, but Israelis are not civilians"


from Amnesty a group hardly renowned for pro-Israel bias

Palestinian armed groups and their supporters offer a variety of reasons for targeting Israeli civilians - that they are engaged in a war against an occupying power and that religion and international law permit the use of any means in resistance to occupation; that they are retaliating against Israel killing members of armed groups and Palestinians generally; that striking at civilians is the only way they can make an impact upon a powerful adversary; that Israelis generally or settlers in particular are not civilians.

The United Nations General Assembly has recognized the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples against colonial and alien domination or foreign occupation in the exercise of their right to self-determination and independence. (5) However, as detailed in section 5, international law requires the use of force to be in accordance with certain basic principles that apply in all situations. In particular, the parties involved in a conflict must always distinguish between civilians and people actively taking part in the hostilities and must make every effort to protect civilians from harm.

Amnesty International has for many years documented and condemned violations of international human rights and humanitarian law by Israel directed against the Palestinian population of the Occupied Territories. (6) They include unlawful killings; torture and ill-treatment; arbitrary detention; unfair trials; collective punishments such as punitive closures of areas and destruction of homes; extensive and wanton destruction of property; deportations; and discriminatory treatment as compared to Israeli settlers. Most of these violations are grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention and are therefore war crimes. Many have also been committed in a widespread and systematic manner, and in pursuit of government policy; such violations meet the definition of crimes against humanity under international law.

However, no violations by the Israeli government, no matter their scale or gravity, justify the killing of Sinai Keinan, Danielle Shefi, Chanah Rogan or any other civilians. The obligation to protect civilians is absolute and cannot be set aside because Israel has failed to respect its obligations. The attacks against civilians by Palestinian armed groups are widespread, systematic and in pursuit of an explicit policy to attack civilians. They therefore constitute crimes against humanity under international law. They may also constitute war crimes, depending on the legal characterisation of the hostilities and interpretation of the status of Palestinian armed groups and fighters under international humanitarian law. (see section 5)

[Sarge]

I think  that there is little brainwashing involved.  Many Palestinian resistors get shot and killed or have relatives meet all sorts of grim ends before they might consider a suicide attack.  I know of a typical example/biog:  When you were eight, the Israeli army first (it happened again) buldozed your home which also damaged your neighbours home.  You used to belong to a drama club because you quite liked acting, set up by a jewish lady who no-one will ever remember, but that is no more as it was destroyed. (I'll skip a bit) You're now twenty years old, most of your friends are dead and you've just seen an Israeli soldier shoot an eight year old girl and you've had enough. Apart from the daily horrors, maybe, that one incident finally broke you.  So you decide to die. Go through the ritual, not bother to tell any of your remaining friends or family about what you intend to do.  They'll know soon enough because you will indeed have posters of yourself put up proclaiming you as a martyr.  And then go and do something utterly fucked up and kill Israeli citizens (and that's where a bit of ritual would help, but you probably resolve to make the decision to do this sort of thing in private, although you live on a daily basis in a culture filled to the brim with resistance to the occupation)

[Sarge]

Oh and your wife also gave birth to a baby girl only two weeks ago and things are grim, they'll probably kill you eventually anyway especially if you were unlucky enough to live in say...Jenin.......or arrest you and then you'd be fucked too.  Oh and you can't get a job because for one you can't fucking go anywhere anyway.  And anyway the jobs go to people imported and flown in by the Israeli government.  That would be a typical biog I'd say.

[european son]

I think  that there is little brainwashing involved.  Many Palestinian resistors get shot and killed or have relatives meet all sorts of grim ends before they might consider a suicide attack.

Respectfully, I do have to disagree with this. i'll fully admit that the horrible and unnecessary things which happen to many Palestinians and their families is a contributing factor to some become suicide bombers, but i doubt very much that it's the major one.

why? firstly because of the horrible things that happen worldwide, in other, less-brainwash driven cultures, where resistance rarely takes the form of suicide bombing.

secondly, because whilst figures for Palestinian deaths since the start of the second Intifada are disgustingly high (over 3,000, though this figure includes militants and the bombers themselves), the Israeli deaths are touching 1,000 now.

a 3:1 ratio, whilst showing the obvious military edge Israel has, also pales into insignificance compared to similar wars/conflicts/"trouble-spots" worldwide, and i'll repeat, until recently suicide bombing was a method of attack particular to one place in the world.


your analysis also ignores the spread of suicide bombing since 2001.

the death toll of the NYC, Bali, Riyadh, and of course Madrid attacks equals those killed in over three years of fighting in Israel/Territories.

and importantly, Palestinians were not involved in any of those attacks. in NYC in particular, the perpetrators were well-off Egyptians and Saudis. Israel (and the US) had not killed their relatives, or bulldozed their homes.

Suicide Bombing is not a logical result of oppression. It is a tactical attack method in the Ideological battle which is shaping the 21st Century, and should be treated as such.

[Sarge]

My quick retort is..that is a typical biog, I haven't made any of it up.  And without wishing to get all melodramatical, he was once a kid who enjoyed acting.  It's fucking tragic.  I guess I emphathise with him

[fanny splendid]

And what does he think his actions, or the actions of the people who live around him, are going to achieve?

Revenge?

That's just about achievable.

Does he blog that?

[MarmiteCarpenter]

And what does he think his actions, or the actions of the people who live around him, are going to achieve?

Revenge?

That's just about achievable.

Does he blog that?

Have you ever had someone piss you off, and wanted to do them an injury that was at least a little bit out of proportion to what they did to you? I bet you have! Fair enough, you probably didn't want to kill as many of them as you could, as painfully as possible, but then they probably didn't just cut you up at a roundabout without waving to say sorry.

Asking people in these situations to think rationally, especially given the slightly blinkered views on life their society presents, is asking a bit much.

[fanny splendid]

Nah, I don't think so. Maybe it's a case of, 'I just don't understand'? Yes, i might think something, but acting upon it is another matter. It's about self control. It's about recognising the responsibility you have for your own actions, and hoping that others behave in the same way. I can't say how I would react if my family were killed, because I live in the kind of country were the majority of us have decided to live together in peace.

There is nothing to stop the Israelis and the Palestinians living together in peace. They just have to decide to do it.

[MarmiteCarpenter]

Nah, I don't think so. Maybe it's a case of, 'I just don't understand'? Yes, i might think something, but acting upon it is another matter. It's about self control. It's about recognising the responsibility you have for your own actions, and hoping that others behave in the same way. I can't say how I would react if my family were killed, because I live in the kind of country were the majority of us have decided to live together in peace.

There is nothing to stop the Israelis and the Palestinians living together in peace. They just have to decide to do it.

Yes, but thats what anger does - it swamps self control, the red mist and all that. True, they just have to decide to live together in peace, and all I have to do to get back with my ex is to just get her to love and trust me again ;)

[untitled_london]

until recently suicide bombing was a method of attack particular to one place in the world.

i'm sure your refferring to kamikaze. but as i can't be 100% certain i'll have to ask you wether you think martrdom(sp) is a word of japanese origin.

if not, apparently the noble act of forsaking your own life for the 'greater good' is less regionally confined than you posit.

[european son]

until recently suicide bombing was a method of attack particular to one place in the world.

i'm sure your refferring to kamikaze. but as i can't be 100% certain i'll have to ask you wether you think martrdom(sp) is a word of japanese origin.

if not, apparently the noble act of forsaking your own life for the 'greater good' is less regionally confined than you posit.

suicide bombings and kamikaze missions are two very different things, for many different reasons. also the former has been a tactic of islamist fundamentalists for touching 13 years now, and are spreading all over the world. kamikaze missions were the flailing limbs of a dying japanese war machine for a short period of time.

also suicide bombing is nothing to do with self-sacrifice and everything to do with murder and believed future reward.

[Incredible Monkey Doctor]

also suicide bombing is nothing to do with self-sacrifice and everything to do with murder and believed future reward.

I think you've just solved the chav problem.

And yea, The Lord said:

There shall be fountains of Special Brew, and 47 Kappa Slappers with no warts and canny tits and crotchless knickers, for those who do bow to me, The Lord, who art having it large in Heaven, should they martyr thyself (that's top yourself, Baz) through the means of blowing up thyself in JJB Sports.

Sorry, I know, that's distatseful, but - ah - fuck it. I preferred it when he was mayer