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Metroid Dread (and hopefully some general Metroid chat?)

Started by Kelvin, October 08, 2021, 05:09:36 AM

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popcorn


Kelvin


popcorn

Samus's moveset is more complex and technical, and feels like it involves more buttons. Greater emphasis on melee combat. The double jump and the air dash move feel like Smash Bros' two "save" moves. The 2D control in 3D space. The levels with doors and hallways going off into the background (can't I walk down that long carpeted hallway instead of going back into the room with the killer robot?) Some enemy encounters.
Spoiler alert
I've just one the boss fight against the Chozo chap
- fighting someone your own size darting around the level - and it felt and looked like Smash Bros.
[close]

buntyman

I've never really played a Metroid game before - I always thought it looked too serious and futuristic for the types of Nintendo game I like. However, I decided I'd give Super Metroid a go having noticed it's on the Switch's Snes library and am totally addicted. It's way better using the snes controller than the joycons as the 'select' button that has to be used frequently is much more accessible. It sounds as though the Dread concept is very similar so I'll be definitely getting that. Maybe I'll work up to it with Fusion next. I bought Metroid Prime on Wii U a while ago but never got on with the controls. 

popcorn

If you like super Metroid you'll like the GBA ones for sure. They're fabulous .

brat-sampson

#65
Dread is the best feeling Metroid game by far imo, and one of the best feeling metroidvanias, right up there with an Ori now for me, even though it's obviously going for something very different. It's awesome to play something that nails the labyrinthian exploration (Labyrinthine?) and hunting for secrets etc with a fully modernized moveset and some new additions to the equipment roster.

I would agree it's pretty action packed. Most of the time mobs aren't a truly dangerous hazard, but it's more death by a thousand meaty cuts as they can hit pretty hard and it's easy to lose track of your health, lose more then you gain and find yourself taken out by a rogue shot/attack. This might happen less as I get more energy tanks. Plus the Emmi sections where you can throw all that out of the window because getting caught is essentially death (I've pulled off the parry a few times, but easily under 10%).

This might be the most addicted to a game I've felt this year, the pull to progress to juuuust one more room/section is palpable.


Junglist

Dread handles beautifully. However this Metroid Prime mouse and keyboard emulator mod thing is just absolute sex. So, so good.

Kelvin

Got my arse absolutely handed to me by (what I assume is) the final boss, just dying over and over again. I've had to turn back to hunt for power ups - especially missiles - so I can try again. Absolute bastard.

brat-sampson

Quote from: madhair60 on October 13, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
I just did a bit in Dread that I can't decide if it's world-class game design or sloppy shit, and I'm not sure it's interesting enough to write about so I'll spoiler it (also it is sort of spoilery I guess and I'm trying to avoid spoilers myself)


Spoiler alert
I progressed to an area with an EMMI that's very clearly using the Speed Booster power from previous games, so passing that I made it to an area where my progress was blocked by a large turbine blowing me back, so I thought, right, need that Speed Booster. Went back to the area with the EMMI and got frustrated that I couldn't find a way to progress. In the end, turned out that the solution was to go to the fan area and just... shoot the floor. I genuinely can't tell if that's a great use of misdirection or simply thoughtless, irritating and badly signposted.
[close]

I think this one's on you,
Spoiler alert
it's a whole new area, so sending you there when progress could be impossible would be insanely poor game design these days, there's a visible corridor beneath you, and the shootable floor has a light focused on it and a different texture.
[close]

I'm a lot further through now, and have been watching some others work through the opening sections. It's genuinely some of the best level/map design I've ever seen, it's like you're driving around a mile-long dropped noodle in the fog, branches going off everywhere, often inaccessible, but always guided by the designer so that if you head for the nearest thing, you'll get where you want to be.  The option to highlight certain features on the map is a very good idea, if you ever go off-piste to head back for secrets etc (which you also get ample opportunity to do) chances are finding the series of things your latest toy allows you to do will get you back on track.

I also appreciate that at least a few of the tools do amount to more than just 'This is a BLUE door, so you must have the BLUE beam to proceed', at least thematically, e.g. the
Spoiler alert
phantom cloak hiding from sensor doors
[close]
or the
Spoiler alert
flash shift getting you over pressure plates
[close]
, though having said that, there is also a lot of that too, especially in the blocks, which of course can usually only be destroyed by a particular *kind* of explosion. I like Metroid games, and I get why it is what it is, and it also allows for good puzzle design etc. Honestly, don't quote me, it's totally fine. I just *also* like it when they actually make an effort to *not* do that.

Chedney Honks

Quote from: Kelvin on October 15, 2021, 11:01:56 PM
Got my arse absolutely handed to me by (what I assume is) the final boss, just dying over and over again. I've had to turn back to hunt for power ups - especially missiles - so I can try again. Absolute bastard.

Also on the last boss now having played another hour this morning. I've enjoyed it for the most part. I think the spin jumping is a bit fiddly and some other stuff like storing the speed charge is a bit awkward but generally it feels and plays nicely. I think the bosses are a bit too reliant on learning patterns you can't predict but I didn't mind that in Cuphead or Souls stuff so I'm happy enough chipping away. Might not have time to do the last boss for a while, seems like a shitload of annoying patterns and instant reflex counters but I'll do it at some point.

The game has definitely become less interesting over the last few hours, just waiting for it to be over now. First four hours, I'd say a solid 8. Last four hours, probably a 5.

I'd say MH Rise is more enjoyable for me this year on Switch and Returnal annihilates it in every way.

Chedney Honks

Finished the last boss after a few goes, wasn't too bad. I finished with 101 missiles and maybe eight energy bars? First and last phases, it's a case of avoiding the attacks and baiting/waiting for the counter really. Second phase is pretty rough but the 'round the world' dodging is very much like bullet herding in shmups so I was comfortable with that pretty quickly. The dash and big laser are tricky, need to see them early and GTFO.

Too much repetition of bosses and encounters towards the end, the EMMI instakills became tiresome, but a lot of fun arcadey action and boss fights in there. Probably too difficult for most people but I tend to find hard games more enjoyable and satisfying as long as they don't go on too long. This was probably about as much as I would have wanted, not a lot of variety in there really, but it's easily a top ten Switch exclusive.

brat-sampson

I'll probably go for 100% before the boss, i like how it tracks what you've got left to do by area, and the general region of secrets. It's just quite fun for me, lapping around the whole game, kitted out like a god, just hoovering up collectables.

Kelvin

Quote from: brat-sampson on October 16, 2021, 02:16:12 PM
I'll probably go for 100% before the boss, i like how it tracks what you've got left to do by area, and the general region of secrets.

Same here. The game makes it really easy to track the remaining pickups, so you're not just walking around aimlessly looking for things you've missed. You either just have to solve a puzzle you passed earlier or head to an area that's glowing and explore there. They also link up all the teleports late game, so you don't have to backtrack through multiple regions just to get a power up in a region on the far side of the map. It's just such a streamlined, user friendly game in that way.

QuoteIt's just quite fun for me, lapping around the whole game, kitted out like a god, just hoovering up collectables.

God yes. There's a late-game power up you get
Spoiler alert
the Screw Attack
[close]
which makes you into a mobile death machine. You literally
Spoiler alert
just pass through everything like a hot knife through butter.
[close]

What is it you don't like about it, Chedders? I can kind of agree that the last couple of hours don't feel as focussed and tense as the early game - you flit between regions a lot more, and with less purpose - but it's still a massively satisfiying game to move around in at that point. I can't work out from your posts what has actually killed your enthusiasm for the game, other than maybe you thought it was too long maybe?

Chedney Honks

I think the honest answer is that Covid exhaustion is probably the most significant variable for me right now. I probably finished it in about four sessions, so the very fact it hooked me enough while I was suffering a fair bit says a lot. Generally, I'm not feeling interested in games other movies or TV so the fact I finished this is probably significant.

I liked how streamlined it was, I did absolutely no exploration for secrets or anything, think I finished with about 28% completion or something, but at the same time there was no sense of exploring deeper beyond my comfort zone. It was actually quite easy to farm health and stuff and there were loads of save rooms. On balance, that's probably more to my tastes, but I never felt that loneliness, trepidation or risk/reward I also enjoy in games. I understand why you and brat fancy exploring for a upgrades and so on but I had no interest and didn't feel I'd be at an advantage to have more health or missiles, really. Most bosses just required you to stay alive enough to counter them.

Towards the end, there were too many repetitive encounters, especially the Chozo soldiers and stuff. Cut all them out and I'd have enjoyed more the final romp to the finish.

brat-sampson

I'm also kinda lazy, so if any of the shinespark puzzles get *too* obtuse, I just find them on youtube.



puzzles? I hate puzzles! Nobody told me there was going to be puzzles.

Consignia

I find the shine spark hidden items really hard mostly due the number of buttons[nb]clicking down the l stick, piss off[/nb] you have to press and timings. I've done all the ones I've come across far, mostly with YouTube's help on the timings and a lot of attempts.

It's probably the most frustrating thing about the game, but I guess they are only needed for 100%, which I'm not going to go for. Although I am tantalisingly close.

I'm at the final boss, but I'm having a bit more fun at the moment bossing it around the map at full power. Feels like a great reward for getting to that point.

brat-sampson

Done w/ 100%. Probably won't bother with Hard Mode. Awesome game, easily as good as any other classic Metroid in terms of design, and with better controls to boot. A couple of repeated encounters are maybe one of the biggest criticisms I could throw out, but overall I had a brilliant time with it.

popcorn

Quote from: Consignia on October 16, 2021, 03:57:46 PM
I find the shine spark hidden items really hard mostly due the number of buttons[nb]clicking down the l stick, piss off[/nb] you have to press and timings. I've done all the ones I've come across far, mostly with YouTube's help on the timings and a lot of attempts.

It's probably the most frustrating thing about the game, but I guess they are only needed for 100%, which I'm not going to go for. Although I am tantalisingly close.

I'm at the final boss, but I'm having a bit more fun at the moment bossing it around the map at full power. Feels like a great reward for getting to that point.

I'm also at (what I assume is) the last boss and have also been doing a bit of power-up hoovering.

I feel the same way about all the shine spark stuff - I had to look online to work out the controls, it feels rather obtuse. Although I've long been a Metroid fan and have played most of the games two or three times, I've never been a completionist or into sequence breaking or speedrunning or anything like that, and I've never really quite worked out how all the speed boost tricks work.

I was surprised that some non-optional puzzles in Dread seem to require you to know you can "swallow" the speed boost to use a few seconds later - I knew that from previous Metroids, but is that actually made clear in Dread? Feels a bit harsh.

I agree that the need to activate it with the thumb click is annoying and I can't think why they decided it was necessary.

Chedney Honks

It must have explained it in the game because I didn't look up anything.

madhair60

Quote from: Chedney Honks on October 17, 2021, 04:52:08 PM
It must have explained it in the game because I didn't look up anything.

It is explained when you first get it, and the tutorial can be repeated via selecting the Speed Booster in the menu

Quote from: popcorn on October 17, 2021, 04:50:13 PM
I agree that the need to activate it with the thumb click is annoying and I can't think why they decided it was necessary.

I agree with this

popcorn

Quote from: madhair60 on October 17, 2021, 05:23:30 PM
It is explained when you first get it, and the tutorial can be repeated via selecting the Speed Booster in the menu

That explains it then, I skip through tutorial text on account of it being boring. I'm just speculating because I knew about the move from previous games anyway, but I suspect in another universe I wouldn't have discovered this feature - why would you go to the menu to reread the tutorial text if you felt you already knew how the speed booster worked? (It wasn't until the endgame that I realised certain speed blocks were already accessible to me via the shinespark moves - I assumed I'd need another upgrade.)

popcorn

Right, finished! I was gripped by this from beginning to end, as I always am with Metroid... but unfortunately I came away feeling that this one didn't really add up, and there were quite a few frustrating missed opportunities.

I liked the challenge level - tough but always fair. I've seen reviews saying it's the hardest Metroid yet, but for me nothing posed the challenge of some of the bosses from Fusion or Samus Returns.

Aside from the needlessly fiddly speed boost/shine spark stuff, I like how Samus controls. She feels fast, powerful and precise. As I wrote above, I like how Smash Bros-like many of the encounters are. Metroid bosses are traditionally big bastards like giant plants or evil toasters or that kind of thing, but here you're pitted against lots of smaller, faster characters. I found this refreshing, it makes the fights feel quite personal, and it helped assist the feeling of Samus, these days, being a truly agile and dynamic character. I thought the boss fights were strong enough to bear repeating but yeah, it's a bit annoying that they were repeated.

I still feel the counter move (introduced in Samus Returns) is a bit cheap - the melee attack is otherwise pretty useless - but it makes sense in boss fights. Likewise the dash attack, which becomes critical in those Smash Bros-like boss fights but is otherwise pretty superficial. Someone in this thread mentioned how they liked how you have to use the air dash to (effectively) open doors - I thought this was a bit naff.

SPONGLERS BELOW
Spoiler alert


The intro sequence, going back to it, is weird. We see Samus's ship flying towards the planet, then it cuts and she's waking up from a hangover. Then we get some flashbacks with Darth Chorizo KOing her moments earlier. Why edit it in this sequence? Why not let me walk off the ship, explore the surface, and get the lift down myself? Why skip all that?

Later, when Adam says "you need to get back to the surface and get back to your ship", I kept thinking: wait, did I even get to see the surface? Like, I don't remember jumping on my ship and using the save point in this one, did that happen? I have such a terrible memory I half wondered if I'd just forgotten it. And of course, no it didn't. It would have created more of a sense of objective if I'd actually been able to control Samus when she got off the ship, so I had a place in my mind that I was trying to get back to. As it was it all felt a bit vague.

Kraid in chains was cool - but the tension that situation should create was wasted. He should have been part of the level, all chained up, you awkwardly jumping around him bombing blocks and solving puzzles wondering when he's gonna break free. Why was Kraid in it anyway? How did he get there?

I thought the Emmis were underused. They're ostensibly the big gimmick, the big theme, the defining feature, but by the second half of the game they're irrelevant. I wanted some Ico-style inversion where - I dunno - Samus became an Emmi, or there'd be hundreds of them and you'd have to mow them down with your Omega Cannon, or something mad like that. It seemed like they were using Samus powers, kind of, but I don't think this idea was really drawn out - it's not like they turn into morph balls and start laying bombs.

When the game was first shown off I thought the Emmis would function a bit more like the big stomping bastard in Resident Evil 2, so you'd have this persistent sense of, well, dread as it followed you around. I'm sure realistically that would make all the exploration and puzzle-solving far less fun but it did mean, with the Emmis limited to their little Emmi zones, they just sort of became a bit annoying and toothless, really. There was never the ratcheting of tension I really hoped the concept was going to bring. You also never get any moments as eerie or memorable as the SA-X's bits in Fusion.

I liked the nods to survival horror of the Emmis (and the game title) and I wanted more of this. Something altogether a bit harsher and colder, more haunting and minimal and eerie, instead of all the supersaiyan Existenz Alien 4 stuff we got in the end.
[close]

Ho hum, I realise that's a lot of moaning for something I got a very solid 11 hours of entertainment from (that's much more than most video games ever manage for me these days), but I did come away feeling a bit bewildered. More than anything I think my memory of the game is that I spent it going through corridors and fighting bosses - but that's what I do in every Metroid, so why does it feel a bit thin here? I never developed a complex relationship with the levels like I did in Fusion or Zero or Super Metroid.

Kelvin

I've just finished it. Basically, I thought it was brilliant, maybe the best 2D Metroidvania I've ever played, and certainly the one I've enjoyed the most, from beginning to end. Hollow Knight has more atmosphere and a more cohesive world, but it's a flabby, often tedious game, despite everything it does right. Ori has great movement, but the combat - at least on the first game - was wretched. Super Metroid is great, but the movement has aged poorly, and there's that awful water area that everybody hates. Dread just feels like a very streamlined, polished, modern take on the genre that learns from all those games and cuts out all the worst stuff. The level design, the combat, the atmosphere, the sense of tension, it just nails it all.

I do agree with a couple of the criticisms above, though - although I'm guessing they bothered me much less. Fundamentally, I think the last two or three hours of the game lack the earlier focus, through a combination of flitting between regions too quickly, and - as popcorn suggested - a diminished role for the EMMIs. I think the weakest moment of the game is
Spoiler alert
when ADAM tells you he needs more time to find Raven Beak, so you go down a lift, fight the final EMMI (in a brilliant, terminator style showdown), and then immediately return up the lift, so ADAM can go, "Found him!"
[close]

Popcorn also mentioned that he/she/they didn't love the way you only passed through the EMMI areas, rather than experience a permanent Mr X style hunt. But I actually disagree on that point; for me the tension, and dare I say dread, came from the knowledge I was going to have to pass back through an EMMI region to reach my next destination. And I particularly liked it when you'd leave one, only to hit a dead end, or realise you were going to have to go straight back into the area you'd just fled.

I also didn't mind the handful of recurring battles with Chozo warriors / robots, because they served as a nice opportunity to see how much more powerful you'd become, with better missiles, better mobility, and more experience under your belt. The last few fights with them were over in seconds because I was such a badass by that point.

What else? I suppose if I had some other niggles, it would be the variable visuals - often lovely - but also sometimes a little too empty or geometric. And the music varied too; it started really well, but some of the later music was fairly unremarkable, and they definitely needed better sound quality with real instruments; the final boss and end credits sounded genuinely awful at times, I thought. Especially when indie games like Hollow Knight sounded so remarkable.

Anyway, I loved it. So much better than I had expected, and so much better than it had any right to be after nearly two decades without a 2D game in the series. To come back that confidently, and to feel so fresh, with such a distinct take on the Metroidvania map design, really is remarkable.   

popcorn

Did anyone load a single save game in this? Save points used to be critical in old Metroids - discovering one is always a relief - but in this you get respawned outside boss/Emmi rooms and when I stopped playing I just put my Switch to sleep. Made the save rooms feel pointless.

No save jingle either! That thing rules!

Kelvin

Quote from: popcorn on October 18, 2021, 01:49:28 AM
Did anyone load a single save game in this? Save points used to be critical in old Metroids - discovering one is always a relief - but in this you get respawned outside boss/Emmi rooms and when I stopped playing I just put my Switch to sleep. Made the save rooms feel pointless.

No save jingle either! That thing rules!

I loaded save rooms on a few occasions I tried to rush through rooms with low health. I assume the main purpose is for when you want to quit playing though.

jimboslice

Yeah, I felt the same about the save points. I accidentally "quit" the game a few times at first due to not being overly familiar with the Switch, which meant I had to re-do a section of the game.

Loved it though. Every single boss in this game was a complete bastard and took me multiple attempts, but it's satisfying to figure out the attack patterns and eventually take them down. I hated having to run through the EMMI areas too. Pretty sure I'm near the end game, so I'm pissing about backtracking and hunting for energy and missile tanks.

I think the only criticism I have of the game is it's maybe lacking a bit of atmosphere? I don't know if it's the music or just the fact that it's a 2D game, but it's not quite as immersive as Metroid Prime. Guess that's a big ask though.

brat-sampson

If you're only playing Dread, then yeah, they're useless, but as someone who was playing other Switch games in between  (Ring Fit, Ace Attorney, etc) or for people who share their Switch with others, I'd say they're pretty valuable, as the game only hard-saves in those places.

End-game Game crit hat:
Spoiler alert
I do think putting the Red Chozo warrier like... less than ten minutes before the Gold Chozo warrier was a bit weird. Both fights are almost the same, both use a shield you can grapple off, etc.
[close]
I watched all of Max Dood's playthrough on Twitch too, was great to see how much he enjoyed it, enough to go back in and get 100% and then to fully clear Hard Mode too.

I *really* want to buy Returnal now, so looking out for a sale there. Might investigate this Prime trilogy PC mod too, though I imagine M+K changes that game a lot as it's designed around having enemies/objects as the 'center' that you lock to and strafe around, rather than a typical FPS where your head is the center and things happen around you.

Chedney Honks

Oh mate, Returnal is well well worth it, as has been said a billion times. Having not played it for a few weeks and having somehow lost my save, think I wiped my PS5 when I planned to sell it then changed my mind and I didn't have PS+ active, I fully intend to go back and play it again. I listened to the boss music for the fourth area the other day and actually started crying a bit, such an incredible atmosphere and feeling.