Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 12:40:37 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Shooting #24601

Started by bgmnts, May 15, 2022, 10:28:22 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sonny_Jim

Just had a quick browse on Reddit.  The prevailing feeling right now is that the police sat outside for an hour, tucked up in their body armor and were too busy trying to tase parents rushing in to save their kids.

Meanwhile, Hunky Border Patrol agent is just finishing a meal 40 miles away when the call comes in, so he speeds over there, rushes into the building and puts a couple of bullets into the bad guy, and then everybody claps.  He wasn't even on duty at the time, just being a total ledge.

Reddit is fucking awful sometimes.

touchingcloth

No it isn't. Not sometimes.

EOLAN

Quote from: cosmic-hearse on May 26, 2022, 10:07:33 PMNot going to link to it, but right wing website The Federalist has already suggested home schooling as a solution to school massacres.

What was their position on home schooling to avoid mass Covid outbreaks, I wonder?

buzby

#333
Quote from: Blumf on May 26, 2022, 11:51:28 PMThe AR stands for ArmaLite, the company that developed the rifle, which later went on to be the US Military's M-16 assault rifle.
ArmaLite Rifle 15. It was designed to fulfill a US Army requirement for a rifle that fired a smaller calibre (5.56mm) cartridge than the then-current NATO 7.62mm standard because that cartridge was basically uncontrollable when fired in full automatic mode in the current M14 rifle, and the USSR had already adopted an intermediate cartridge (see below) in the AK47. Delays due to the Army's resistance to  change to this new calibre led ArmaLite to sell the design to Colt, who redesigned it for mass production (ArmaLite was only a small company) and it was eventually accepted first by the US Air Force and then the US Army as the M16 at the beginning of the US's involvement in the Vietnam War.
QuoteBasically...

Machine gun = A gun that fires rifle cartridges rapidly (fully automatic)
A rifled-barrel, self-loading gun that can fire rifle-calibre (.22 or above) cartridges in fully automatic mode for long periods, either via forced cooling of the barrel (such as a water jacket) or the use of interchangable barrels. Many machine guns have a select fire (full auto/semi auto) capabilty as well
QuoteAssault Rifle = A rifle that can fire both single shots (semi-auto) and fully automatic (and maybe also bursts of 2-3 rounds). Basically a military weapon.
A select fire rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge (rifle calibre bullet, but with a smaller propellant charge which reduces range, but increases controllabilty in full auto mode and allows for greater magazine capacity). They also generally have a shorter barrel than a WW2-era battle rifle or machine gun, which again reduces range and accuracy, but allows easier handling during troop transport (important, as infantry was getting increasingly mechanised via helicopters and personnel carriers) and in close quarter fighting.

Although they can be fired in full auto mode for short periods of suppressive fire, they are not designed for sustained fully automatic fire (in the M16, for instance, sustained fully automatic fire will eventually melt the gas tube that drives the reloading/recocking of the bolt).

The first Assault Rifles were deigned by the Germans in WW2 to give troops a higher rate of fire than their bolt-action rifles in close-range combat, specifically the urban fighting on the Eastern Front ('Assault Rifle' is a direct translation of the term the German military used for these weapons - Sturmgewehr).

QuoteAssault Weapon = A vague term that tries to conflate a normal, single shot rifle, with a fully automatic assault rifle. It's exact meaning can differ depending on who's using it.
The 'Assault Weapon' term is usally associated with weapons that were prohibited during the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Basically anything with the features of an Assault Rifle (seperate buttstock and pistol grip, forward handguard over the barrel, detachable magazine with capacity over 5 rounds etc.).
QuoteBasically, most the AR-15s sold to ordinary citizens are just semi-automatic (single shot). It's next to impossible to buy a proper assault rifle new (or a new machine gun for that matter), requiring lots of very expensive paperwork and wait times.
The sale of all new full auto weapons has been banned since 1986. The 1994 Assault Weapon Ban covered the sale of new semi-automatic weapons, and expired in 2004.

QuoteYou can modify an AR-15 in various ways to fire fully-auto. It's tricky to do that reliably, but the internet is there and you know how it goes.
For an AR-15, you can legally buy the ex-military select-fire fire control groups, but a civilian lower receiver needs to be modified to fit it which is a bit more than a garage job. More importantly, it is illegal to modify any weapon to fire in full auto.

There were also devices called Drop In Auto Sears that could be fitted into civilian semi-auto fire control groups to add full auto capabilty, but they were deemed to be a machine gun in 1981 and so sales of them were also banned in 1986.

The most recent attempt at 'legal' full auto conversion was the Bump Stock, but they were reclassifled as machine guns after their use in the 2017 Las Vegas shooting and so their sale was also banned.
QuoteBut even in plain semi-auto form, it's a nasty proposition in these situations. Fully-automatic is of more use in battlefield situations where you want suppressing fire, rather than actively targeting people, so it's not really an issue in an enclosed space.
In shootings like this one (inside a building) using an assault rifle doesn't give you any advantage over over a semiauto pistol with a high capacity magazine - spree shooters seem to gravitate to them due to the 'tacticool' image and fetishisation of the military (and dare I say it, their use in FPS games). At close range you can kill just as many people with a semi-automatic pistol (see Dunblane, which led to the total ban on handguns in the UK). Any new gun restricitons that concentrate solely on assault rifles will just push spree shooters onto using pistols, and with the likes of the Glock 17 with a 17-round magazine you can kill just as many people in a classroom as with an AR-15.

ajsmith2

Here's a pile of worthless, self serving vague hippy verbosity from Russell Brand on this subject that is completely inadequate and helps in no way (on that last point it's a lot like this post from me mocking it).

'for me, the gun law aspect of this and the firearms stuff of this.. I'm sure there are many many opinions on that.. but I feel we have a deeper conversation'


Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead

Quote from: buzby on May 27, 2022, 09:27:58 AMAny new gun restricitons that concentrate solely on assault rifles will just push spree shooters onto using pistols, and with the likes of the Glock 17 with a 17-round magazine you can kill just as many people in a classroom as with an AR-15.
Is it safe to assume that there are even fewer restrictions on purchasing pistols in the USA than there are on purchasing assault rifles?

Martin Van Buren Stan

Quote from: Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead on May 27, 2022, 09:39:15 AMIs it safe to assume that there are even fewer restrictions on purchasing pistols in the USA than there are on purchasing assault rifles?

I think pistols are a lot more restricted in some states, but not others.

Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 27, 2022, 09:45:55 AMI think pistols are a lot more restricted in some states, but not others.
Well, that's messed up my longing for a tidy narrative. Bloody federal system.

More seriously, now that I think about it for more than a nano-second, I  suppose that makes sense: there's the whole deer-hunting rationale for rifle ownership, whereas it's never
Spoiler alert
Bambi's mum
[close]
being taken down with a handgun.

Cuellar

Quote from: Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead on May 27, 2022, 09:51:26 AMWell, that's messed up my longing for a tidy narrative. Bloody federal system.

More seriously, now that I think about it for more than a nano-second, I  suppose that makes sense: there's the whole deer-hunting rationale for rifle ownership, whereas it's never
Spoiler alert
Bambi's mum
[close]
being taken down with a handgun.

It happened in series 1 of Homeland

Martin Van Buren Stan

Quote from: Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead on May 27, 2022, 09:51:26 AMWell, that's messed up my longing for a tidy narrative. Bloody federal system.

More seriously, now that I think about it for more than a nano-second, I  suppose that makes sense: there's the whole deer-hunting rationale for rifle ownership, whereas it's never
Spoiler alert
Bambi's mum
[close]
being taken down with a handgun.

Also rifles are a lot harder to conceal and sneak into places. Obviously that's not relevant to a shooting like the one that inspire this thread but generally speaking it makes more sense to restrict pistols, most gun crime is committed with them

buzby

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 27, 2022, 09:45:55 AM
Quote from: Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead on May 27, 2022, 09:39:15 AMIs it safe to assume that there are even fewer restrictions on purchasing pistols in the USA than there are on purchasing assault rifles?
I think pistols are a lot more restricted in some states, but not others.
Yeah, it varies state to state, Conneticut, New York, Illnois, DC, Hawaii and California being the most restrictive (some of them actually require a gun permit and registration of the weapon). In most states (including Texas), you can walk out of a gun store (or even a Walmart) with a rifle or pistol the same day.

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on May 27, 2022, 10:13:17 AMAlso rifles are a lot harder to conceal and sneak into places. Obviously that's not relevant to a shooting like the one that inspire this thread but generally speaking it makes more sense to restrict pistols, most gun crime is committed with them
The states that restrict pistol ownership usually also have simialr restrictionson assault rifles too (they are treated differently to 'long guns', i.e. hunting rifles).

Martin Van Buren Stan

Quote from: buzby on May 27, 2022, 10:15:21 AMI think pistols are a lot more restricted in some states, but not others.

Yeah, it varies state to state, Conneticut, New York, Illnois, DC, Hawaii and California being the most restrictive (some of them actually require a gun permit and registation of the weapon). In most states (including Texas), you can walk out of a gun store (or even a Walmart) with a rifle or pistol the same day.

A handful of states of conceal carry as standard so you don't even need a license for it I believe.

touchingcloth

Is there any legitimate civilian use for assault rifles? Presumably people aren't using them for hunting, and any "need" they have is around defending themselves from tyrants?

buzby

#343
Quote from: touchingcloth on May 27, 2022, 10:46:15 AMIs there any legitimate civilian use for assault rifles? Presumably people aren't using them for hunting, and any "need" they have is around defending themselves from tyrants?
Not really. The 5.56mm cartridge is not ideal for hunting larger game anyway (which is why the US Military is now moving to the 6.8mm cartridge in the XM5 assault rifle). The AR-15 platform was originally derived from the AR-10, which was chambered for the previous generation (and more powerful) 7.62mm NATO cartridge, and there are many companies that have made civilian 7.62mm/.308 versions of the AR-15. They still have a smaller powder load and shorter barrel than a .308 bolt action hunting rifle though, so not as accurate over longer ranges.


Blumf

Quote from: touchingcloth on May 27, 2022, 10:46:15 AMIs there any legitimate civilian use for assault rifles?

No, and as already mentioned, they are not for sale to civilians anywhere in the US. A standard civilian AR-15 is not an assault rifle.

It's important not to confuse this, as it can be used to deflect attention away from regular guns (like the AR-15, but also pistols, etc.), which are deadly enough on their own terms.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: ajsmith2 on May 27, 2022, 09:34:26 AM


"The Jordan Peterson it's ok to want to fuck" (if you have a low bar)

Zetetic

Given everything discussed - the endemic institutional racism and classism of America, the huge number and diversity of guns already in people's hands (legally and otherwise), the nature of the US's two party system - what does "stricter gun control", of the kind that can actually be enacted and will then be implemented, actually look like and what effect can it have?

JaDanketies

I feel like the pervasiveness of guns in the US is an excuse to do nothing, but this schoolchild-killer bought his guns new, and just before he did his mass murder. If you couldn't buy these guns new from a licensed retailer, would he have gone to the hassle of finding them on the black market?

The other part of US logic will be, if the bad guys already have AR-15s, then the good guys will also need to be able to buy new AR-15s. But maybe the good guys will have to make do, and the bad guys will have more weaponry for a period.

robhug

and don't forget the US guns and ammo industry is extremely lucrative

there was a bod on channel 4 news from some think tank saying if they had a national referendum on gun laws, about 80% of yanks would vote for a complete ban. Contrary to the rest of the world thinking every single one of them is gun crazy etc.


The Dog

Wouldn't raising age limits be an obvious step? Make it a serious crime to give someone under 21 a gun unsupervised. And if the gun lobby gets upset just remind them that most Americans under 21 are trans nowadays or something, they'd go for that.

idunnosomename

They should try and wean America off guns with electric guns. They just release sickly-sweet vapour when you pull the trigger.

Dark Sexy Dangerous

https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683

Quote
Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school
By JAKE BLEIBERG, JIM VERTUNO and ELLIOT SPAGAT
yesterday

UVALDE, Texas (AP) — Frustrated onlookers urged police officers to charge into the Texas elementary school where a gunman's rampage killed 19 children and two teachers, witnesses said Wednesday, as investigators worked to track the massacre that lasted upwards of 40 minutes and ended when the 18-year-old shooter was killed by a Border Patrol team.

"Go in there! Go in there!" nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still gathered outside the building.

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

"Let's just rush in because the cops aren't doing anything like they are supposed to," he said. "More could have been done."

"They were unprepared," he added.

Minutes earlier, Carranza had watched as Salvador Ramos crashed his truck into a ditch outside the school, grabbed his AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle and shot at two people outside a nearby funeral home who ran away uninjured.

Officials say he "encountered" a school district security officer outside the school, though there were conflicting reports from authorities on whether the men exchanged gunfire. After running inside, he fired on two arriving Uvalde police officers who were outside the building, said Texas Department of Public Safety spokesperson Travis Considine. The police officers were injured.

After entering the school, Ramos charged into one classroom and began to kill.

He "barricaded himself by locking the door and just started shooting children and teachers that were inside that classroom," Lt. Christopher Olivarez of the Department of Public Safety told CNN. "It just shows you the complete evil of the shooter."

All those killed were in the same classroom, he said.

Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw told reporters that 40 minutes to an hour elapsed from when Ramos opened fire on the school security officer to when the tactical team shot him, though a department spokesman said later that they could not give a solid estimate of how long the gunman was in the school or when he was killed.

"The bottom line is law enforcement was there," McCraw said. "They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom."

Meanwhile, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door and had to get a staff member to open the room with a key. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.

Carranza said the officers should have entered the school sooner.

"There were more of them. There was just one of him," he said.

Uvalde is a largely Latino town of some 16,000 people about 75 miles (120 kilometers) from the Mexican border. Robb Elementary, which has nearly 600 students in second, third and fourth grades, is a single-story brick structure in a mostly residential neighborhood of modest homes.

Hundreds packed into bleachers at the town's fairgrounds for a vigil Wednesday and the crowd swelled so big some stood around the speakers on the dirt arena. Some cried. Some closed their eyes tight, mouthing silent prayers. Parents wrapped their arms around their children, as the speakers lead prayers for healing.

Before attacking the school, Ramos shot and wounded his grandmother at the home they shared, authorities said.

Neighbor Gilbert Gallegos, 82, who lives across the street and has known the family for decades, said he was puttering in his yard when he heard the shots.

Ramos ran out the front door and across the small yard to the truck parked in front of the house. He seemed panicked, Gallegos said, and had trouble getting the truck out of park.

Then he raced away: "He spun out, I mean fast," spraying gravel in the air.

His grandmother emerged covered in blood: "She says, 'Berto, this is what he did. He shot me.'" She was hospitalized.

Gallegos, whose wife called 911, said he had heard no arguments before or after the shots, and knew of no history of bullying or abuse of Ramos, who he rarely saw.

Investigators also shed no light on Ramos' motive for the attack, which also left at least 17 people wounded. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Ramos, a resident of the small town about 85 miles (135 kilometers) west of San Antonio, had no known criminal or mental health history.

"We don't see a motive or catalyst right now," said McCraw of the Department of Public Safety.

Ramos legally bought the rifle and a second one like it last week, just after his birthday, authorities said.

About a half-hour before the mass shooting, Ramos sent the first of three online messages warning about his plans, Abbott said.

Ramos wrote that he was going to shoot his grandmother, then that he had shot the woman. In the last note, sent about 15 minutes before he reached Robb Elementary, he said he was going to shoot up an elementary school, according to Abbott. Investigators said Ramos did not specify which school.

Ramos sent the private, one-to-one text messages via Facebook, said company spokesman Andy Stone. It was not clear who received the messages.

Grief engulfed Uvalde as the details emerged.

The dead included Eliahna Garcia, an outgoing 10-year-old who loved to sing, dance and play basketball; a fellow fourth-grader, Xavier Javier Lopez, who had been eagerly awaiting a summer of swimming; and a teacher, Eva Mireles, whose husband is an officer with the school district's police department.

"You can just tell by their angelic smiles that they were loved," Uvalde Schools Superintendent Hal Harrell said, fighting back tears as he recalled the children and teachers killed.

The tragedy was the latest in a seemingly unending wave of mass shootings across the U.S. in recent years. Just 10 days earlier, 10 Black people were shot to death in a racist attack at a Buffalo, New York, supermarket.

The attack was the deadliest school shooting in the U.S. since a gunman killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012.

Amid calls for tighter restrictions on firearms, the Republican governor repeatedly talked about mental health struggles among Texas young people and argued that tougher gun laws in Chicago, New York and California are ineffective.

Democrat Beto O'Rourke, who is running against Abbott for governor, interrupted Wednesday's news conference, calling the tragedy "predictable." Pointing his finger at Abbott, he said: "This is on you until you choose to do something different. This will continue to happen." O'Rourke was escorted out as some in the room yelled at him. Uvalde Mayor Don McLaughlin yelled that O'Rourke was a "sick son of a bitch."

Texas has some of the most gun-friendly laws in the nation and has been the site of some of the deadliest shootings in the U.S. over the past five years.

"I just don't know how people can sell that type of a gun to a kid 18 years old," Siria Arizmendi, the aunt of victim Eliahna Garcia, said angrily through tears. "What is he going to use it for but for that purpose?"

President Joe Biden said Wednesday that "the Second Amendment is not absolute" as he called for new limitations on guns in the wake of the massacre.

But the prospects for reform of the nation's gun regulations appeared dim. Repeated attempts over the years to expand background checks and enact other curbs have run into Republican opposition in Congress.

The shooting came days before the National Rifle Association annual convention was set to begin in Houston, with the Texas governor and both of the state's Republican U.S. senators scheduled to speak.

Dillon Silva, whose nephew was in a classroom, said students were watching the Disney movie "Moana" when they heard several loud pops and a bullet shattered a window. Moments later, their teacher saw the attacker stride past.

"Oh, my God, he has a gun!" the teacher shouted twice, according to Silva. "The teacher didn't even have time to lock the door," he said.

The close-knit community, built around a shaded central square, includes many families who have lived there for generations.

Lorena Auguste was substitute teaching at Uvalde High School when she heard about the shooting and began frantically texting her niece, a fourth grader at Robb Elementary. Eventually she found out the girl was OK.

But that night, her niece had a question.

"Why did they do this to us?" the girl asked. "We're good kids. We didn't do anything wrong."

___

Bleiberg reported from Dallas. Acacia Coronado, Eugene Garcia and Dario Lopez-Mills in Uvalde; Ben Fox, Michael Balsamo, Amanda Seitz and Eric Tucker in Washington; Paul J. Weber in Austin; Juan Lozano in Houston; Gene Johnson in Seattle; Stephen Groves in Sioux Falls, South Dakota; and Rhonda Shafner in New York contributed to this report.

___

More on the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas: https://apnews.com/hub/school-shootings

Paul Calf

Quote from: Zetetic on May 27, 2022, 01:54:25 PMGiven everything discussed - the endemic institutional racism and classism of America, the huge number and diversity of guns already in people's hands (legally and otherwise), the nature of the US's two party system - what does "stricter gun control", of the kind that can actually be enacted and will then be implemented, actually look like and what effect can it have?

It can't be solved in a week with a couple of laws, but it's better to start than not start, right?

Cold Meat Platter

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 27, 2022, 02:20:36 PMThey should try and wean America off guns with electric guns. They just release sickly-sweet vapour when you pull the trigger.

Like the Master's Tissue Compression Eliminator

oggyraiding

Do you reckon the shooter will develop a fanbase of edgelords, like the Columbine duo? Or is the murder of elementary school children a bridge too far?

touchingcloth

Quote from: Blumf on May 27, 2022, 11:37:54 AMNo, and as already mentioned, they are not for sale to civilians anywhere in the US. A standard civilian AR-15 is not an assault rifle.

It's important not to confuse this, as it can be used to deflect attention away from regular guns (like the AR-15, but also pistols, etc.), which are deadly enough on their own terms.

Agreed. Handguns are more terrifying if anything because of things like the ease of concealment already discussed. The one time I visited the US, it was always in my mind that literally anyone could have been carrying a hidden gun.

Dark Sexy Dangerous

Quote from: oggyraiding on May 27, 2022, 04:36:27 PMDo you reckon the shooter will develop a fanbase of edgelords, like the Columbine duo?

Yes. He already has.

Cold Meat Platter


touchingcloth

Quote from: JaDanketies on May 27, 2022, 02:09:17 PMI feel like the pervasiveness of guns in the US is an excuse to do nothing, but this schoolchild-killer bought his guns new, and just before he did his mass murder. If you couldn't buy these guns new from a licensed retailer, would he have gone to the hassle of finding them on the black market?

My feeling is probably not. It's like little interventions like limiting the amount of paracetamol you can buy in one transaction - you wouldn't think that would put anyone hellbent enough from just going around for another sale or going to another chemist down the road, but it seems like in a significant amount of cases you can reduce suicides by putting relatively tiny barriers in the way of people. Literal barriers in the case of bridges - fewer people will scale a fence than just leap over a railing.

I assume I could probably get a big gun in the UK if I looked hard enough, but fuck me what a hassle. And imagine what the neighbours would say when they saw you taking a big violin case into the house.