Heinous Rwanda deportations go ahead

[TrenterPercenter]

What have the Labour Party actually said about this then?

They have said it is unethical, expensive and un-British (and also cruel).

Of course I can save people time and do the rightwing/reactive leftwing job here as well and tell you that this doesn't matter because Tony Blair proposed something similar in 2004 and of course that means that every Labour Party since then would do the same (strange how the Tories are always allowed to forget their bad policy decisions even the ones they actually went through with).  So just as bad as each other.

I am sure the refugees being packed on to planes will appreciate a lesson about why the ex-ex-ex-ex leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair was really bad person so not to pay attention to anything positive anyone in the party says now.

[Fambo Number Mive]

There's a trust issue with Labour under Starmer, a man who jettisoned all the pledges he stood for the leadership on and who has mainly focused on trying to attract votes from Tory supporters. I think it's more about concern about the current Labour leadership than people focusing on what New Labour did in power.

[TrenterPercenter]

There's a trust issue with Labour under Starmer, a man who jettisoned all the pledges he stood for the leadership on and who has mainly focused on trying to attract votes from Tory supporters. I think it's more about concern about the current Labour leadership than people focusing on what New Labour did in power.

Sure I get that, I've always got that (didn't vote for him, don't like him).  If left-wingers want to stop comparing modern day concerns about the Labour Party with things Tony Blair did in the 90s then I'm all for that.  Btw that take on Blairs 2004 policy is from the Express, it is rightwing propaganda to distract from this repulsive policy - I am afraid to say imo it could easily have come out of some of my comrades mouths, and despite being said for ultimately different reasons, the outcome is still the same for those suffering from the policy.

What I've saying is does that mistrust overwrite throwing these refugees (see caveats from before) under the bus?  It's an easy answer from me Clive, I just wondered about about others.

[Sebastian Cobb]

They have said it is unethical, expensive and un-British (and also cruel).

Have they? Most of what I've seen from both Starmer and Yvonne Cooper have been along these lines (this was from June 10th)

Labour leader
@Keir_Starmer
 has criticised the government's plan to send asylum seekers to Rwanda as a "chaotic diversion" which hasn't been "thought through" and "isn't going to solve the problem".

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1535235464285892608

Doesn't seem like referring to it as 'the problem' makes it sound like ethics is their main reservation with the scheme tbh.

[TrenterPercenter]

Have they? Most of what I've seen from both Starmer and Yvonne Cooper have been along these lines (this was from June 10th)https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1535235464285892608

Doesn't seem like referring to it as 'the problem' makes it sound like ethics is their main reservation with the scheme tbh.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-rwanda-policy-unethical-expensive-092743699.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADTiyp9362CL5WDcl1hibRdTzTYTq6LzR_H58ppPHva4sdkmWPRKrzMAhLXMd5ZP38f6XWudKQ_Q7bgkMGWM8TpPaCDjONqHHqUWgWSrBQhGquDB2OSk41RP19II_Mnslxn1Jorru4ctDBwAxuRgRZBAFiWyOAi5LstJN93YGYkq

Shadow Culture Secretary Lucy Powell labels the government's policy of deporting illegal migrants to Rwanda as being "expensive", "unethical" and "un-British". Citing other similar schemes, she says it is going to be "extortionate" and argues the government are only following through with it because "they know it's incredibly controversial" and serves as a distraction from the cost of living crisis.

Even the quote you chosen shows Labour is not supportive though.

[Sebastian Cobb]

My point isn't that labour aren't condemning it, it's that the leader of the opposition and the shadow home secretary are arguing against it mostly on cost grounds, they're quite unwilling to say that refugees aren't bad.

[bgmnts]

They have said it is unethical, expensive and un-British (and also cruel).

Of course I can save people time and do the rightwing/reactive leftwing job here as well and tell you that this doesn't matter because Tony Blair proposed something similar in 2004 and of course that means that every Labour Party since then would do the same (strange how the Tories are always allowed to forget their bad policy decisions even the ones they actually went through with).  So just as bad as each other.

I am sure the refugees being packed on to planes will appreciate a lesson about why the ex-ex-ex-ex leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair was really bad person so not to pay attention to anything positive anyone in the party says now.

Dont even really have to go back to Tony Blair being a war criminal you can dismiss the Labour party and whatever they say and do because it's the current Labour party.

Your dedication to defending the Labour party is admirable but a lost cause really.

[TrenterPercenter]

It shouldn't need explaining that the Tories are doing this precisely to show the public they are "tough" on immigration, what they want is for Labour to come out woke arms flailing so they can then do the same trick they have used for the last 10 years and go "see Labour doesn't care about this country", so of course it is expedient to point out it is not only unethical, but expensive, but this means the left gets in huff for them not saying the things they dream about saying on their imaginary soapbox before God reaches down and gives them the thumbs up.

The Tories literally game plan this around those groups, getting them both getting angry whilst they get away with it again and again, and again, and again....of course nothing gets done about the actual victims but both groups get to feel their anger is verified.

This is challenge we've all got and it's fucking bigger than any left-right split with all butt hurt trimmings in the Labour Party.  It's just logically insincere either, anti-Corbyn centrists accussed Corbyn of throwing migrants under the bus over Brexit, whilst pro-Corbnites (me) tried to explain it was expedient, the best we could do in the situation and how thinking how to approach this is in country being increasingly radicalised by nationalism need some flexibility.  Then these groups just flip over and erase their memories when it suits. 

End result the same people getting fucked over again and again.

[TrenterPercenter]

My point isn't that labour aren't condemning it, it's that the leader of the opposition and the shadow home secretary are arguing against it mostly on cost grounds, they're quite unwilling to say that refugees aren't bad.

Like I say Corbyn was tarred with this over Brexit but people just defended it.


It's obvious this isn't about the actual issue.

[TrenterPercenter]

Dont even really have to go back to Tony Blair being a war criminal you can dismiss the Labour party and whatever they say and do because it's the current Labour party.

Your dedication to defending the Labour party is admirable but a lost cause really.

I'm not sure you've read what I said as this makes no sense.  The current Labour Party would not be enacting this policy - you can say that they would but that isn't true, you know it isn't true and forcing the idea that it might be true is Trump level delusional politicking.

So in the end you are more committed to your tragic mindset than you are to helping these refugees.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It's obvious this isn't about the actual issue.

Says you. I think most people wanting people in Labour to condemn this on concrete ethical grounds, rather than meekly admitting they think it's a problem care quite a bit about the people on the receiving end.

[TrenterPercenter]

Says you. I think most people wanting people in Labour to condemn this on concrete ethical grounds, rather than meekly admitting they think it's a problem care quite a bit about the people on the receiving end.

Yes so do the Tories.

And Labour are condemning it on concrete ethical grounds they have said it is "unethical" you are just ignoring that because it suits (and soon to flip to the obligatory let's make this personal to distract from the complete absence of logic here).

Anyway as I was pointing out this was literally the line that was taken against Corbyn and Brexit, it was wrong then and it's wrong now (though actually Corbyn was supportive of Brexit so it could be argued he was worse).

It's quite ridiculous that pointing this reality out is seen as supporting Labour or Starmer, but is all that seems to matter to some.  I'll say another thing if there was party I could vote for that would remove the Tories from power and stop this policy I would vote for them, there isn't though, it's only a combination of voting Labour and tactical voting for others that can stop this, if you are still fighting this notion and thinking you are doing good then you have very badly lost your way.  It's a war, it will rage until you and me both kiss the world good night, pick your battles and keep your mind sharp, stop falling into the obvious traps of anger and apathy that is what the powerful always want.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Lucy Powell, today saying little about ethics, just arguing about practicality.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVNnYusXoAAfjTS

And they are condemning it on concrete ethical grounds they have said it is "unethical" you are just ignoring that because it suits (and soon to flip to obligatory lets make this personal to distract from the complete absence of logic here).

No, I'm not 'ignoring' it, I'm saying if they're saying it at all, it's very quiet to other things they are saying, which implies the solution is inadequate rather than unethical. And where does your defence of all this get us? Seems to just dilute criticism of labour not condemning it enough and make it easier to stick the boot in to the vulnerable people.

and soon to flip to obligatory lets make this personal to distract from the complete absence of logic here

You priggish CUNT. That sort of thing?

[jobotic]

For Christ's sake*



*sorry, for Jeremy's sake. That's probably what us lot say.

[TrenterPercenter]

You priggish CUNT.

There you go.  Just a massive ball of USELESS anger grrrrr.

It's sadly all you've got.  let's leave this now.

[Sebastian Cobb]

What else am I supposed to do? I've disagreed and you've short-circuited your usual trick of writing a load of pseudy waffle designed to distract and force the other person into performing the virtual equivalent of walking off shaking their heads by smugly second-guessing my motivations and demanding to be insulted. I'll concede you did correctly guess I'd take the path of least resistance but I feel you put people in the impossible position of agreeing with your nonsense or expending more effort than it is feasible to give.

[Fambo Number Mive]

I think that, regardless of whether people want to vote Labour or another party in response to this at the next election, people need to find ways of peacefully protesting this now. (I'll most likely vote TUSC who are also against these deportations).

Detention Action are looking for volunteers if anyone is interested in that: https://detentionaction.org.uk/get-involved/volunteer/

[bgmnts]

I'm not sure you've read what I said as this makes no sense.  The current Labour Party would not be enacting this policy - you can say that they would but that isn't true, you know it isn't true and forcing the idea that it might be true is Trump level delusional politicking.

So in the end you are more committed to your tragic mindset than you are to helping these refugees.

You've gone mental sorry.

[TrenterPercenter]

people need to find ways of peacefully protesting this now. (I'll most likely vote TUSC who are also against these deportations).

Detention Action are looking for volunteers if anyone is interested in that: https://detentionaction.org.uk/get-involved/volunteer/

100%

[Dex Sawash]

bloody migrants coming over and taking are Rwandan holidays

[Johnny Yesno]

actually Corbyn was supportive of Brexit so it could be argued he was worse

Actually, no, he wasn't. Don't make stuff up.

[TrenterPercenter]

Actually, no, he wasn't. Don't make stuff up.

What are you talking about the Corbyn's position and the Labour Manifesto was a "jobs first Brexit" he supported that motion at conference and voted for article 50.

I understood what he meant here, despite the very obvious fact and previous voting records show he wasn't keen on the EU (which is fine), but I was clearly saying that was enough for loads of people that accused him of throwing immigrants under the bus, I know I was arguing with them that wasn't what he was doing. 

I think he supported Brexit as a compromise, whilst other people thought he supported Brexit because he wanted to leave the EU (and many on the left were angry at him for compromising on that).

Are we just going pretend all that stuff didn't happen now?

[Johnny Yesno]

He went along with the referendum result. That doesn't mean he was supportive of brexit. Unless you are suggesting he is also supportive of keeping Trident.

[Johnny Yesno]

And this is different. No one voted for this. Kieth and co really need to step up and call this out for the racism it is.

[Peabo Bryson Is Not Dead]

[TrenterPercenter]

He went along with the referendum result. That doesn't mean he was supportive of brexit. Unless you are suggesting he is also supportive of keeping Trident.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I am saying people said he was supportive of Brexit and he could be argued to be because he voted for it - that is regardless of whether he personally wanted it or not because he compromised.  No you can't say the same thing about Trident because he had a history of voting against it and made it very clear, he backed down because he would have lost the vote - that is very different from his voting record on the EU and his behaviour during the referendum (even John McDonald said Corbyn changed his view on Brexit during the campaign - my personal view is he was a eurosceptic but very pragmatically saw that the Brexit that was in front of us was not good and appealed to control and mitigate the worse effects of it - but it's not my view that was important it was the fact people accused him of throwing immigrants under the bus with his support of this compromise)

Can you please stop going on about this if you are unable to keep it in the context in which it was said.

[Johnny Yesno]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I am saying people said he was supportive of Brexit and he could be argued to be because he voted for it - that is regardless of whether he personally wanted it or not because he compromised.  No you can't say the same thing about Trident because he had a history of voting against it and made it very clear, he backed down because he would have lost the vote - that is very different from his voting record on the EU and his behaviour during the referendum (even John McDonald said Corbyn changed his view on Brexit during the campaign - my personal view is he was a eurosceptic but very pragmatically saw that the Brexit that was in front of us was not good and appealed to control and mitigate the worse effects of it - but it's not my view that was important it was the fact people accused him of throwing immigrants under the bus with his support of this compromise)

Can you please stop going on about this if you are unable to keep it in the context in which it was said.

Well, you're wrong but I'm not going to argue with you while you're being a grumpy cunt.

[Johnny Yesno]

For anyone else who's interested, you should listen to someone who knows Corbs rather than random grumpy cunts on the internet: https://youtu.be/9Ck0Jg92bPk?t=907

[TrenterPercenter]

Well, you're wrong but I'm not going to argue with you while you're being a grumpy cunt.

I'm not grumpy I just can't be arsed with your either ignorant reading or purposely insincere interpretations of what I am saying -

I think Corbyn was right and I exhausted myself far too much at the time trying to explain this to friends from the EU who were incredibly frightened about what was going to happen to them.  Ss I said accusing him of throwing immigrants under a bus for his stance on Brexit was wrong then and it is wrong now.  I can't really help you if you've rejected the reality in which lots of people were angry at Corbyn over his stance(s) on Brexit.

[TrenterPercenter]

For anyone else who's interested, you should listen to someone who knows Corbs rather than random grumpy cunts on the internet: https://youtu.be/9Ck0Jg92bPk?t=907

You are pathetic.

Yes Yanis is great btw agree with nearly everything he says.