The Wheel of Time Season 2

[VelourSpirit]

First three episodes are out today. I genuinely loved the first series so I've been really excited for this.

[king_tubby]

Thanks for the heads up, I've seen no promotion of this or mention on social media.

[purlieu]

First season seemed to get a generally positive response but this has definitely faded into the background after House of the Dragon and Rings of Power.

Faile is my favourite character in the books and there are rumours she may be in this season so I'm interested to see how she'll be portrayed (sadly nobody has invented a time machine to go back and grab a young Claudia Black in time).

[Kankurette]

Meera Syal is a great choice for Verin (one of my faves in the books) so I'm looking forward to seeing her.

How's the new Mat?

[VelourSpirit]

Thanks for the heads up, I've seen no promotion of this or mention on social media.

I feel like it has no online presence at all outside of a few twitter fans. Looks like it's #1 on Prime somehow though.


New Mat is good! I think the first actor was so compelling and dark, real shame he's out. Donal Finn can do the dark stuff too but he's not as scary as the first one. Maybe he shouldn't be! He's still really good.

[mjwilson]

I feel like it has no online presence at all outside of a few twitter fans. Looks like it's #1 on Prime somehow though.

Rule 1, don't trust any numbers from streaming services.

[Mr Trumpet]

It's got picked up for series 3 though so it can't be doing that badly.

I've not read the books but I enjoyed S1 well enough. Nothing earth-shattering but I like the setting and the music and costuming and (I know this is APPALLINGLY WOKE) the diversity of the cast - although it wasn't hard to guess that the Chosen One would turn out to be the white guy with the cheekbones.

Just watched the first episode of S2 and realised I hardly remember anything about the plot. I had to look up who Padan Fain was and I still don't know why they're looking for a magic horn, or why Mat is apparently shacked up with the red wizard? And who is Rosamund Pike staying with, have we seen them before?

[Kankurette]

Rand being ginger is a plot point.

Spoiler alert

He's actually of Aiel descent (the Aiel are the tribe of gingers who live in the desert and are obsessed with honour, Aviendha is one of them and she's due to show up soon). Tam al'Thor is his adopted dad.

[close]

[Mr Trumpet]

Yeah am I right in thinking that hair colour is the key racial signifier in this world, rather than skin colour? It's a pretty neat idea, assuming I haven't just made it up.

I remember Rand's mum having that pretty great fight scene at the end of S1. I think the swordplay in this show is underrated. Used fairly sparingly but always to spectacular effect.

[Kankurette]

Yep. There were characters of colour in the books as well (Tuon, Semirhage and Rahvin, for instance, though none of them have appeared yet). But it's Rand's hair colour and height that make him stick out in Two Rivers.

[VelourSpirit]

It's got picked up for series 3 though so it can't be doing that badly.

I've not read the books but I enjoyed S1 well enough. Nothing earth-shattering but I like the setting and the music and costuming and (I know this is APPALLINGLY WOKE) the diversity of the cast - although it wasn't hard to guess that the Chosen One would turn out to be the white guy with the cheekbones.

Just watched the first episode of S2 and realised I hardly remember anything about the plot. I had to look up who Padan Fain was and I still don't know why they're looking for a magic horn, or why Mat is apparently shacked up with the red wizard? And who is Rosamund Pike staying with, have we seen them before?

Only read the first book but the gist is:

Horn of Valere: blow it and you supposedly call an army to your side, they were unearthing it in the Fal Dara throne room in the s1 finale, Padan Fain the peddler/darkfriend stole it at the end

Mat: left his friends behind in s1e6 when they went through the waygate to Fal Dara, then in s1e7 Moiraine mentions contacting the red sisters to intercept him, all we know at the end of s1 is that he's in Tar Valon. Now in s2 (set five months later) we put together that he was captured by Liandrin and held in the White Tower for months unbeknownst to Egwene/Nynaeve

Moiraine: staying with Verin - an Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah - her warder and another Aes Sedai whose name I don't remember. We haven't seen them before, not really sure what they're about/why they don't live in the tower. This was the part that confused me most but I guess Moiraine and Lan have just been recuperating/planning there.

[Kankurette]

I think the other Aes Sedai is Adeleas, she has a sister called Vandene. I'm catching up with the new series, just watched the first episode. Thoughts under cut.

Spoiler alert

- I was pleasantly surprised Ishamael didn't feed the girl to the Trollocs. That's the kind of shit other Forsaken have done in the series.
 - Elyas is in it. I know Hopper is because of the trailers but I didn't realise Elyas was in the series as well. Thank fuck, I was worried they wouldn't cast him, but then I only watched up to episode 6 of the last series so still have some catching up to do.
 - Nice foreshadowing from Ingtar there re burying the Shienaran traitor. He'd know all about that.
 - Meera Syal is perfect for Verin.
 - Liandrin continues to be as punchable as ever. She's not going to be a stand-in for Elaida btw, Elaida is going to be in the series but she hasn't shown up yet. I don't think they're going to have the Caemlyn bits with Elayne where Rand falls off a wall and meets her or whatever it was.
 - Is the fat blue Aes Sedai with the white hair Sheriam?
 - Shirtless Lan scenes? Yes please.
 - Uno reminds me of Barry Bannan. Also, Domon's accent made me wonder if the Illianers are going to be Welsh.
 - I wonder if the long fingernails at the bad guy meeting belonged to Suroth. And if the black woman in the trailer with the dreadlocks is Aludra. There was an Aviendha sighting as well.
 - Why are the damane wearing muzzles? They look stupid.

[close]

Apparently

Spoiler alert

Lanfear

[close]

is going to be showing up in a few episodes, so we're definitely moving on to The Great Hunt. Btw, question for book readers re The Eye of the World:

Spoiler alert

wasn't Aginor in that book and he got beaten by some kind of Green Man, or was that Balthamel? Did they just cut those two out?

[close]

[Gambrinus]

I think the other Aes Sedai is Adeleas, she has a sister called Vandene. I'm catching up with the new series, just watched the first episode. Thoughts under cut.

Spoiler alert

- I was pleasantly surprised Ishamael didn't feed the girl to the Trollocs. That's the kind of shit other Forsaken have done in the series.
 - Elyas is in it. I know Hopper is because of the trailers but I didn't realise Elyas was in the series as well. Thank fuck, I was worried they wouldn't cast him, but then I only watched up to episode 6 of the last series so still have some catching up to do.
 - Nice foreshadowing from Ingtar there re burying the Shienaran traitor. He'd know all about that.
 - Meera Syal is perfect for Verin.
 - Liandrin continues to be as punchable as ever. She's not going to be a stand-in for Elaida btw, Elaida is going to be in the series but she hasn't shown up yet. I don't think they're going to have the Caemlyn bits with Elayne where Rand falls off a wall and meets her or whatever it was.
 - Is the fat blue Aes Sedai with the white hair Sheriam?
 - Shirtless Lan scenes? Yes please.
 - Uno reminds me of Barry Bannan. Also, Domon's accent made me wonder if the Illianers are going to be Welsh.
 - I wonder if the long fingernails at the bad guy meeting belonged to Suroth. And if the black woman in the trailer with the dreadlocks is Aludra. There was an Aviendha sighting as well.
 - Why are the damane wearing muzzles? They look stupid.

[close]

Apparently

Spoiler alert

Lanfear

[close]

is going to be showing up in a few episodes, so we're definitely moving on to The Great Hunt. Btw, question for book readers re The Eye of the World:

Spoiler alert

wasn't Aginor in that book and he got beaten by some kind of Green Man, or was that Balthamel? Did they just cut those two out?

[close]

I read up to book 10 about 20 years ago before giving up (as the rest of it wasn't out then and book 10 was a right slog). Is it worth finishing?

I enjoyed the first series, although can't remember much about it.

[Kankurette]

Apparently the last 3 books (which Brandon Sanderson wrote) are AIDS tier and he can't write Mat so no, unless you're a hardcore fan. Book 10 is one of the ones nobody likes because it's boring as balls (apparently), plus it has the endless Faile Gets Kidnapped plotline.

[MojoJojo]

Apparently the last 3 books (which Brandon Sanderson wrote) are AIDS tier and he can't write Mat so no, unless you're a hardcore fan. Book 10 is one of the ones nobody likes because it's boring as balls (apparently), plus it has the endless Faile Gets Kidnapped plotline.

I've not read them, but I'd take that with a pinch of salt. It's fashionable to hate on Sanderson at the moment - I think it's because he's so prolific, I would say I'm a fan but at 2+ novels a year, if I read all his output his faults become glaring and I get sick of him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1wbunc/am_i_crazy_wheel_of_time/ is an interesting read. Real mix of opinions - some people saying they didn't really enjoy the series until Sanderson's books, but they're weirdoes he read 10 books they don't enjoy for some reason. Others saying they're not as good but glad they got an ending. Others saying the prose wasn't as good, but they think Peterson was struggling to move the story to a conclusion* and Sanderson rescued the series. Everyone seems to agree Mat wasn't written right though.


(*I mean before he died. Although I suppose he did afterwards too.)

EDIT: I wasn't accusing of Kankurette of fashionable Sanderson hate, I meant the reports they'd seen of the Sanderson books being rubbish should be treated as suspect.

[Kankurette]

I had no idea, I'm not that familiar with him other than he's Mormon. It comes from reading bits of the books and seeing Mat say things that are wildly OOC, or everything about Androl and his bullshit door power. He was going off Jordan's notes but he added things like fan names as well, and he didn't quite get how naming conventions work in Randland, or how Illianers speak (they have a very distinctive speech pattern). Little things like that.

He does make Egwene ridiculously badass though.

[mjwilson]

Is this not one of their big expensive shows? Why is there seemingly no advertising?

Personally I was pretty meh on the first season but maybe they could tempt me back with a good campaign.

[purlieu]

The final trilogy of Sanderson books is fine. It's way, way too long - the final book is literally

Spoiler alert

The Last Battle with a few chapters either side. If you don't like long, long, long, long stretches of prose of tactics and manoeuvres it's a proper slog

[close]

and the new Mat is utterly baffling. He's actually quite fun, a much more modern version of the sarky smartass character, and it's not too hard to get used to him, but the change in The Gathering Storm is a proper sledgehammer. His change is comparable to, say, watching a Tom Baker Doctor Who and then a David Tennant one. The rest I'm perfectly ok with. It was always going to be an impossible job to finish it completely satisfyingly, but other than Mat's characterisation the final trilogy doesn't really betray anything from the earlier books.

Jordan wrote himself into a corner and it's a miracle we got an ending at all. I mean these fantasy epics are wont to get out of hand a little, and much like Game of Thrones, The Wheel of Time was initially conceived as a trilogy. How that ended up being 14 books is mind-boggling, but the sad truth of it is there's a stretch from A Crown of Swords to Crossroads of Twilight that should have been condensed down to one book, two at most. It's just worldbuilding on top of worldbuilding, sometimes an entire book taken up with a plot about a particular city which could (should) have been handled in four or five chapters. It really picks up with Knife of Dreams, Jordan's last, and while he was obviously struggling to fit what became the last three books into the promised final volume, some of the renewed energy still carries on into Sanderson's adaptations. But had Jordan had a little more perspective on the slog in the middle, he might have condensed it down and completed the series before his death. Which is quite sad, really. But he was at least willing to let somebody carry on should the worst happen, which is something.

Yeah am I right in thinking that hair colour is the key racial signifier in this world, rather than skin colour? It's a pretty neat idea, assuming I haven't just made it up.

The Westlands (where it's set) is basically a very large continent, and different races are described as being as different as they are in ours. The decision to go with a more diverse racial casting from the start was for contemporary political reasons, and seemed to go down badly with certain quarters of the fanbase. Unlike, say, Game of Thrones, we don't get to see a lot of parts of the Westlands until much later on, so doing maybe two seasons of purely white casting was seen as potentially problematic. Which I can understand, although it's a shame we don't get to see the world develop in the way Jordan wrote. But there's no perfect solution to these things.

[Kankurette]

Skipped ahead a few episodes.

Spoiler alert

I'm guessing Gaul won't be in the series, since they gave his intro to Aviendha, who's originally in the third book.

[close]

The Seanchan are incredible and look so otherworldly, like something from Star Wars. Not looking forward to the damane stuff though, that was one bit that I had a visceral reaction to. Those muzzle things look like dummies.

Lanfear is both hot and creepy. I liked her goth dominatrix queen outfit.

Purlieu, one thing I like about the series is that it's more compact. Book purists will moan and I admit there's some changes I don't like, but pages of world building doesn't translate well to TV. A Crown of Swords was my first Wheel of Time book and by the end of it I was desperate for Mat and co to get out of Ebou Dar. And then they had that fucking Faile plot that went on and on.

[purlieu]

I'm surprised the plan is currently to do it in five seasons, I expected six or seven, but it definitely feels like there'll probably be times when one of the Rand Goes To A City books will be either done in an episode or two or just glossed over entirely, which can only be a plus. Hopefully the Faile stuff will similarly be done in a season rather than what felt like 400 books.

[Kankurette]

I'd be happy if they cut the fucking Faile plot out.

I'm hoping Thom will come back, because he is a pretty major character. I'm surprised we haven't met Elaida yet - some people thought Liandrin was going to take Elaida's role but Elaida has apparently been cast. It'll also be interesting to see if they stick with all 12 Forsaken or reduce the numbers. We've already got Lanfear and Ishamael. They could probably cut Mesaana. I'm hoping Moghedien and Graendal stay out of the girls, and Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael out of the lads (Demandred doesn't really do much until the final books). Did they cut Aginor and Balthamel?

Btw where is Min? She didn't get kidnapped in the TV series, but she did in the books, she was made a servant.

ETA: Meera Syal is fucking brilliant. Although I'm biased becaue Verin is one of my favourites and

Spoiler alert

there is so much foreshadowing going on with her and Sheriam. Although Sheriam isn't revealed as a Black sister until very late on, after the Tower schism happens.

[close]

[Dex Sawash]

I'm bored and just want to see Lan naked.

[purlieu]

Faile Thom Elaida Liandrin Lanfear Ishamael Mesaana Moghedien Graendal Asmodean Rahvin Sammael Aginor Balthamel Min Verin Sheriam

God, I just remembered how bloody hard it was to follow all the characters in the books. Especially the Aes Sedai.

I really should re-read them at some point.

[Kankurette]

I know, there were a gajillion Random Aes Sedai and some of them had similar names. Faolain and Falion, for instance, or Merise and Merilille.

Reminder of who's who (under cut because spoilers):

Spoiler alert

- Faile: stabby quasi-Middle Eastern woman who ends up with Perrin. Gets kidnapped by the Shaido Aiel, who are a rogue Aiel tribe whose Wise One is a rapey lesbian. The plot goes on and on.
 - Thom: the gleeman who is also an assassin and a top shagger. Banged Elayne's mum. He's quite a major character in the series, not sure what the show will do with him.
 - Elaida: takes over as Amyrlin in Book 4. Siuan hates her. She's a giant bitch who likes wine and bullies people. If she was a football manager, she'd be Ronald Koeman.
 - Liandrin: the blonde one with the braids who has the personality of a Mumsnet member. Is Black Ajah.
 - Lanfear: the Forsaken who's just a tad obsessed with Rand and was last seen decapitating some bloke and nicking his horse, and then haunting Rand's dreams. Gets yeeted through a doorway by Moiraine. The Dark One kills her and rezzes her as Cyndane, and then Perrin kills her at the last battle.
 - Ishamael: the hot sexy male Forsaken and the Dark One's biggest fan. He's the only male one who's appeared so far. He swaps bodies with Rand at the end after the two become linked somehow.
 - Mesaana: the Forsaken who infiltrated the White Tower and is the real boss of Alviarin, Elaida's right-hand woman. She murdered some random Brown sister and took her place. She ends up a vegetable, I'm not sure how but one of the Aes Sedai mindfucks her.
 - Moghedien: the Forsaken who sneaks around a lot and is a bit of a coward, and gets owned by Nynaeve twice. Kicks Liandrin's smug arse and it is GLORIOUS. One of the few Forsaken to make it to the end, but gets made into a damane. She used to be an accountant.
 - Graendal: the Forsaken with blonde hair and big tits who used to be a psychiatrist. Likes making people into her brainwashed slaves. Most likely the one who offed Asmodean. She gets killed by the Dark One and brought back as an ugly old hag called Hessalam, and ends up being Aviendha's bitch after she tries to brainwash her and Aviendha reflects the attack.
 - Asmodean: failtastic musician Forsaken who ends up hanging out with Rand after Lanfear threatens to tell on him to the Dark One. He's pretty funny. Rahvin kills him but Rand undoes his death by balefiring Rahvin, but then Graendal kills him and the Dark One can't be arsed bringing him back.
 - Rahvin: the Rishi Sunak of the Forsaken. Makes Morgase, Elayne's mum, his sex slave for a bit. He actually nearly offs Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod, but IIRC Nynaeve saves him. He kills Mat, Asmodean, Aviendha and one of the Aiel, but gets balefired and they all come back to life because something something time.
 - Sammael: the Forsaken who has Short Man syndrome and ends up either getting eaten by the killer fog or Balefired by Rand. Has the family of a Whitecloak Darkfriend fed to Trollocs every time he fucks up.
 - Aginor: the mad scientist Forsaken who only appears in the first book and comes back as Osan'gar, a weird bloke who joins the Asha'man (the male equivalent of the Aes Sedai) and accidentally gets killed by a Black sister. I think he got cut.
 - Balthamel: another Forsaken whose face rotted off, and I think he only appears in the first book. Comes back as a woman called Aran'gar who infiltrates the rebel Aes Sedai camp and gives Egwene headaches. She gets warcrimed by Rand.
 - Min: the girl who has visions. In the original series, she was living in the White Tower but the series changed her story a bit, and I've not seen the episodes with her yet. She's one of Rand's wives later on.
 - Verin: the Brown sister played by Meera Syal. Is actually a double agent and there's been a fair bit of foreshadowing about this already. There's a bit where she and Rand, and I think Loial and Ingtar as well, travel around in The Great Hunt but it looks like they cut it (and Uno, the sweary one with the eyepatch, isn't killed by the Seanchan in the book, nor do Loial and Ingtar get made slaves).
 - Sheriam: Mistress of Novices, she's the Blue sister with the white hair who keeps the record book. She's also Black Ajah, but we don't find out until much later.

[close]

There's also Belal, Semirhage and Demandred out of the Forsaken, but Demandred does bugger all for most of the series, Belal only really does anything in Book 3 and Semirhage doesn't really get going until the big Seanchan invasion mid-series.

[purlieu]

I remember some of those, at least. Thom is my favourite character in the whole series, and Faile is one of two fictional characters I've ever fancied without there being a picture of her.

[Kankurette]

There are some hot characters in this series, holy CRAP. Ingtar and his guyliner, the gay Warders, Alanna, Renna, Lan, Aviendha...I could go on. Thom is a bit of a DILF, I hope he comes back.

Also, just watched Episode 6 and the phrase

Spoiler alert

"pour the water, Egwene"

[close]

is going to haunt me. I went in prepared but the torture scenes made me wince, and

Spoiler alert

Ryma being collared while she's crying over her dead Warder

[close]

was the icing on the shit cake.

On the plus side, Mat is back. The new Mat reminds me of my best mate from high school, so that's a bonus. And they did the impossible by making me feel sorry for Liandrin of all people. Lanfear is so very creepy and I actually like her more than the book version, probably because there aren't pages of her going 'DO ME NOW YOU HOT GINGER LOVE GOD'.

[Catalogue Trousers]

'Come, Arseache my Elf, Neurofen Owlbag Filler of the Bowl. Our Quest is the Fabled Realm of Lambada, in the Treacherous Forest of Splod - for I am Jordan the Windbag.'

[Kankurette]

The Wheel of Time doesn't have elves in it.

[VelourSpirit]

It'll also be interesting to see if they stick with all 12 Forsaken or reduce the numbers. We've already got Lanfear and Ishamael. They could probably cut Mesaana. I'm hoping Moghedien and Graendal stay out of the girls, and Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael out of the lads (Demandred doesn't really do much until the final books). Did they cut Aginor and Balthamel?
[/spoiler]

Lanfear mentioned Moghedien and Graendal by name in her dream chat with Ishamael. Excited to meet them all! Much preferring Ishy in the show to TEOTW so far, but I hear that he changes a bit later in the books? Lanfear's great too, looking forward to meeting her in The Great Hunt

[Kankurette]

Lanfear is less irritating than she is in the books, probably because there's less of her, so there's a plus. Also, she actually gets to bang Rand. Book!Lanfear would be steaming.

I can't wait to see Moggy. She's one of my favourite Forsaken.