The continual decline of the British rail industry

[Subtle Mocking]

Sigh...Virgin Trains loses west coast mainline franchise to FirstGroup

Unbelievable. One of the shittest rail companies in the UK have acquired the rights to perhaps its most crucial route. I can't wait for habitually late trains, overcrowding, garish colour schemes, non-existent staff on trains, toilets that you can't wash your hands in because the taps are fucked, and best of all, paying more for the privilege of all that! Virgin were never perfect, but they're lightyears ahead of FirstGroup when it comes to their rail experience.

Urgh. So, let's discuss the abyss that is the British rail industry.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

What's actually amazing is that First pulled the same scam (offering to pay an unrealistic sum of money) on the Great Western route and then pulled out early, excusing them from loads of payments to the government, while banking a tidy profit. National Express did the same with the East Coast route too.

And Virgin Trains came right out and said that this is what First were doing and that the figures were unrealistic and they won it regardless. It's staggering. And, whichever way, the costs will fall to us, either as taxpayers or as rail users.

We seriously need to nationalise the lot. When is a party going to come out in favour of that?

[KLG-7A]

JUST stay on benefits everyone, climate change etc what a joke

[doppelkorn]

I've had loads of experience in the past 5 or so years with that route run by Virgin and it's by far the best train experience in the UK. Fucking hell lads etc. etc.

[Still Not George]

We seriously need to nationalise the lot. When is a party going to come out in favour of that?

Science Party of Great Britain. If we can show evidentially that the railways have become significantly worse under privatisation at a cost of more money (which I'm pretty sure we can but that's an untested hypothesis atm) then we'll make it a manifesto pledge.

[Phil_A]

I thought this thread was going to be about the news that rail ticket prices are increasing by another six percent. Jesus.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19261896

But Transport Secretary Theresa Villiers said that the fare increases were necessary in the short-term to achieve the government's long-term goal of bringing down the cost of running railways.

"In the longer term we are determined to get rid of these above-inflation fare rises all together," she said.

"But in the meantime I'm afraid these fare rises are going to be necessary in order to help us deliver a rail investment programme at a time when the deficit means public spending needs to be constrained," she added.

This is some Lewis Carroll level bullshit right here.

"Don't you see, we have to raise prices so we can eventually lower them again. At some point. Maybe."

Does anyone actually believe there's the remotest chance that train fares will ever come down? Cos I honestly can't see it happening. For all the evidence of "investment" in the service, the rail companies might as well be chucking all that extra money onto a big fire.

[ThickAndCreamy]

Any important service in which a single private company has a monopoly on its total use with little to no public accountability will inevitably lead to corruption, price gouging and scandalous profits at the expense of the general public.

There is not a single benefit to train privatisation. The public still has to in part pay for train infrastructure investment, in return the train companies compete to charge the highest prices to rip us off. There is no competition, a single company will run on a single line, and without competition there is no argument for privatisation as that's what is supposed to keep costs down. There is no reason for them to charge lower or reasonable prices as it will only hinder their business model.

Re-nationalisation is the only sensible option. Part-privatisation has been a massive failure, as train prices have sky-rocketed and infrastructure has only improved with huge public sums of money spent on it, which is then used to help the train companies gain a larger profit instead of helping the public at large. It has cost unbelievable amounts of money in both tax and in ticket costs. It needs to be changed, now.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I goes everywhere by coach because the train is ridiculously expensive. I went to Leeds a little while ago and the difference between the two was something like eighty quid. Even if I weren't cash strapped I wouldn't pay that kind of money.

[ThickAndCreamy]

I goes everywhere by coach because the train is ridiculously expensive. I went to Leeds a little while ago and the difference between the two was something like eighty quid. Even if I weren't cash strapped I wouldn't pay that kind of money.

Agreed. The only affordable train journeys are those going to very obscure places, but even then it can be hard to find a reasonable price, and it will always be much cheaper by coach.

[SetToStun]

For all the evidence of "investment" in the service, the rail companies might as well be chucking all that extra money into Executive remunerations, bonuses and dividends to shareholders.

Tidied that up a bit for you.

The railways are such an essential part of the national infrastructure it beggars belief they're in private hands. OK, things were sometimes pretty awful under state control, but we've seen the alternative now - we're sorry we moaned and can we please, pretty please with all sprinkles on, go back to British Rail?

[Goldentony]

As long as they sort out noisy, abrasive turds in quiet zones then they can drag me to Manchester Oxford Road and beyond on one of those fucking comedy Bugs Bunny getaway hand powered shits for all I care.

Coach isn't so bad at all, really. I'm trying to think if these First bastards are the company i've used to escape both Widnes and Manchester Victoria in the past. If they're who i'm thinking of then theyre the rickety motherfuckers with the old bus seats in the coaches all pointing one way

[shiftwork2]

It's not the age of the coach though is it?

[Beagle 2]

There was some fucking cunt on the radio yesterday from Southeastern rail who's argument was "The fares have been stupidly cheap for ages now, so the trains are always overcrowded, and people end up asking for stupid things like high speed links to London etc. By raising the fares we'll lessen overcrowding, so it makes sense".

No you fucking cunt, that's not what's going to happen. The trains are overcrowded because there aren't enough trains. People use the trains because they need to get to work, where they'd rather not be. The trains will still be overcrowded, they'll just cripple people even more financially. Used to cost me 15 quid a day to get to Leeds and back when I lived in Yorkshire, so I moved to London, which is full. I'd really rather live somewhere more pleasant and get the train in, but they're extortionate.

Enrages me, the transport situation in this country.

[Goldentony]

It's not the age of the coach though is it?

No coach ever called me honky

[kngen]

So depressing - not to get all lovey at Branson, but Virgin were a decent train company, and by far my favourite way to travel between London and Scotland. It was only because they managed to repair their reputation through modernisation that the other option - GNER, now East Coast - had to lift its game and offer a comparable service - ie something other than 1960s rolling stock with benches for seats.

Now First get their hands on those lovely Pendolinos! Christ, it's like handing the keys of a Jaguar over to ... erm ... some drunk twat shit at driving who won't take care of it.[nb]'Lottery yob Mike Carrol'? Yeah, why not.[/nb]

[The Duck Man]

"In the longer term we are determined to get rid of these above-inflation fare rises all together," she said.

"But in the meantime I'm afraid these fare rises are going to be necessary in order to help us deliver a rail investment programme at a time when the deficit means public spending needs to be constrained," she added.

Yeah, scrapping above-inflation rises isn't going to make the trains any less expensive, it just means they wouldn't get any more expensive than their present super-absurd level. It's only if rises are below-inflation that they'll go down.

Now First get their hands on those lovely Pendolinos! Christ, it's like handing the keys of a Jaguar over to ... erm ... some drunk twat shit at driving who won't take care of it.

Pendolinos do quite frequently smell of poo, mind. And their windows are pretty small, and they have absurdly small aisles and ridiculously limited baggage capacity for a long-distance route. And there's always a vast amount of first-class carriages, frequently with no-one in them, while people stand in standard class. But apart from that...

[kngen]

And there's always a vast amount of first-class carriages, frequently with no-one in them.

Yep, another reason I like travelling on them. Well worth the extra 20 quid.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yeah, scrapping above-inflation rises isn't going to make the trains any less expensive, it just means they wouldn't get any more expensive than their present super-absurd level. It's only if rises are below-inflation that they'll go down.

And even the promise that there will only be on-inflation price rises is a complete fucking lie.

[Zetetic]

Any hints available yet for where the rises will be focused? (Here's a Guardian map of the 2011 rises.)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The noisy abrasive turds in the quiet zones are there because when a train stops at a platform and there aren't many seats available, everyone getting on automatically rushes to find one wherever they may be. The whole idea of a quiet zone given the spare capacity (ie- zero) on their lines is quaint. Or laughable, if they allow you to do that in quiet zones.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Remember that rail privatisation is here because

- The electorate thought they were getting something better in the first place
- 'Experts' say the public thinks rail travel should be funded by rail users, not the taxpayer who doesn't use it

(On the last point, most people who use the same argument for why they shouldn't pay taxes for the NHS are the worst ever cunts.)

In the end what we are left with is a rail service that is both more expensive to use yet almost astonishingly worse than most of Europe. Even in former Soviet countries you have excellent quality main-line trains and commuter lines, with local trains that while old as fuck, are built to last, and very very cheap. If you compared the annual cost to someone to travel an equal distance to work by train over there with someone over here, and adjusted it to a percentage of their earnings, the eventual disparity would turn into human form and kick you to death.

[kngen]

Remember that rail privatisation is here because

- The electorate thought they were getting something better in the first place
- 'Experts' say the public thinks rail travel should be funded by rail users, not the taxpayer who doesn't use it

(On the last point, most people who use the same argument for why they shouldn't pay taxes for the NHS are the worst ever cunts.)

In the end what we are left with is a rail service that is both more expensive to use yet almost astonishingly worse than most of Europe. Even in former Soviet countries you have excellent quality main-line trains and commuter lines, with local trains that while old as fuck, are built to last, and very very cheap. If you compared the annual cost to someone to travel an equal distance to work by train over there with someone over here, and adjusted it to a percentage of their earnings, the eventual disparity would turn into human form and kick you to death.

I would renationalise it in a second if I could, but my abiding memory of British Rail in the 70s and 80s was that it was a fucking dismal experience, even just travelling from Glasgow to Dumfries, and that can only be partially blamed on the Tories. Was it deliberately being run into the ground even before Thatcher's scorched earth policies took hold?[nb]genuine question. I would like to know.[/nb]

[Zetetic]

What precisely does a franchise buy you (as opposed to being an open access operator - enabled by this EU directive apparently, regardless of privatisation or nationalisation)?

Subsidised access to Network Rail (although this seems to me just to be routing money through the government)?
Rolling stock that comes with the franchise?
The stations? (Although are there open access agreements as regards the stations)?

[shiftwork2]

Everyone likes Virgin Trains now?  People have forgotten the terrible performance from Virgin when they took over the franchise in the late nineties.  There was a period of mayhem lasting a few years.  A particularly memorable Liverpool-London journey around Christmas had the 'train manager' lock himself in his little cupboard thing as he feared for his physical safety from hundreds of passengers annoyed at a 5 hour delay with no information whatsoever passed on to them.  I just chilled and had a mince pie, but others were proper annoyed like.  Honestly, they were rubbish to begin with.  Not sure if they learnt the business over that time or whether the Pendolinos eventually gave them better reliability.

[Blumf]

Was it deliberately being run into the ground even before Thatcher's scorched earth policies took hold?[nb]genuine question. I would like to know.[/nb]

Well, obviously, there's this cunt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Beeching,_Baron_Beeching

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

He was very ironically killed by a ghost impersonating a L11 shunting locomotive.

It was ironic because his dad was a gay Ivatt Mogul Class 4F 2-6-0 43019.

If any of you knew about trains you would find this so hilarious even the shit you shit while you shit yourself laughing would shit itself laughing.

[The Duck Man]

Yep, another reason I like travelling on them. Well worth the extra 20 quid.

Alright, but not many of us are made of SOLID GOLD.

Having said that, the other week when advance booking my train I found a first class train was cheaper than standard fare - which sometimes happens, but this was the first time on Virgin. They loaded me up with stuff! I got some cheese biscuits thingys, sandwiches (1 and a half rounds, each a different flavour!), some crisps, two glasses of orange juice (and I could have had booze, were I a drinker). No wonder they don't make a profit - all you get on Midland is a seat that's a different colour.

And even the promise that there will only be on-inflation price rises is a complete fucking lie.

Well, that too.

[Lfbarfe]

So depressing - not to get all lovey at Branson, but Virgin were a decent train company, and by far my favourite way to travel between London and Scotland. It was only because they managed to repair their reputation through modernisation that the other option - GNER, now East Coast - had to lift its game and offer a comparable service - ie something other than 1960s rolling stock with benches for seats.

Eh? The InterCity 225s on the ECML were introduced in 1989-1990.

I would renationalise it in a second if I could, but my abiding memory of British Rail in the 70s and 80s was that it was a fucking dismal experience, even just travelling from Glasgow to Dumfries, and that can only be partially blamed on the Tories. Was it deliberately being run into the ground even before Thatcher's scorched earth policies took hold?[nb]genuine question. I would like to know.[/nb]

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, my experiences of BR were pretty good, and I've seen numerous statistics to suggest that in terms of reliability and performance, the latter-period BR shat on the privatised railway, with a lower level of subsidy.

[monkfromhavana]

Trains need to be rationalised. Basically anything that the government does to "add competition" generally means the competition to see who can raise the fares/bills  the most. Look at electricity/ gas etc. You'd expect a rise in the cost due to things like continuous improvement of the infrastructure, inflation, energy prices etc etc but the prices have gone too high.

The private sector is good for making ipods etc, the public sector is good for public services. Becausde with ipods you genuinely have a choice in what you buy/if you buy. Travelling by train to work, getting a kidney transplant, catching murderers is not really a choice based exercise.

I don't use trains to commute, and don't live in London so i don't see the overcrowding etc, but it's the price that gets me. I've been travelling to Scotland and back quite a lot over the past few years. Buying a train ticket a month in advance at a normal time with a maximum of one change comes in at about £120 return. National express return on the bus costs £40 maximum, and takes 2 hours more. Trains are basically a fucking rip-off and i'd be pissed if i had to commute into London.

[kngen]

Eh? The InterCity 225s on the ECML were introduced in 1989-1990.

Ah sorry - exaggeration for comedic effect. I was just saying that - having travelled a fair bit from London to Scotland over the last few years - I noticed that GNER, as was, seemed to begrudgingly upgrade their service whenever Virgin would introduce something new and shiny, as they were - for people like me - in direct competition.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, my experiences of BR were pretty good, and I've seen numerous statistics to suggest that in terms of reliability and performance, the latter-period BR shat on the privatised railway, with a lower level of subsidy.

To be fair, any time I used Intercity, it was usually fine. But services within Scotland were appalling for the most part. More times than I care to recall, a 90-minute journey from Dumfries to Glasgow would stretch into three or four hours due to some cock-up somewhere - which was fun in the middle of winter when you're stuck on a train whose heating system hasn't worked since the late 60s (no real exaggeration there).

Like I say, I'm not pro-privatisation in the slightest, and if it did have to happen (which it really didn't) then BR should have been privatised as a whole, rather than the ludicrous Balkanisation that took place. I'm just tempering the tone of 'ooh, lovely British rail back in the day'[nb]which no-one is really saying, I know.[/nb]