GAME/Gamestation in trouble?

[Viero_Berlotti]

Do they still have that Stolen From Ivor years after the others shut down?

Yes he's still there, the last 'Stolen From Ivor' taking up half the pavement outside his shop with rail upon rail of discount jeans. You'd probably find a pair of vintage 'Spliffy' or 'Juice' jeans with the big back pockets if you looked hard enough.

[Subtle Mocking]

And they always have the radio on outside, as if that entices anybody to go in there.

[Inaniloquent]

Do they still have that Stolen From Ivor years after the others shut down?

Oh wow, it's like I'm 14 again!

[Viero_Berlotti]

Oh wow, it's like I'm 14 again!

Yeah, Naf Co 54 coats and Joe Bloggs jeans! Now I know what it feels like to be Peter Kay.

[Gavin M]

Staff in Dublin taking it well



There's been some sit-in protests I believe.  What's going on at the existing stores?  Business as usual or fire sale of the century?

[NoSleep]

I take from earlier posts it they didn't even own the stock; it was on loan; hence the prices staying high to the last minute. It'll be returned to the distributors or sold at notmal price I would think.

[Gavin M]

I take from earlier posts it they didn't even own the stock; it was on loan;

Even the pre-owned?  Things really are desperate.

[NoSleep]

Even the pre-owned?  Things really are desperate.

They'll bail the company out by crossing the road to sell at CEX.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

So with publishers being pissed off at losing money to pre-owned sales, will there be a gradual shift towards encouraging people to download games which have, say, a 12 or 18 month license, which either locks or vanishes when it expires? Do enough casual console gamers want to actually do that?

[Famous Mortimer]

So with publishers being pissed off at losing money to pre-owned sales, will there be a gradual shift towards encouraging people to download games which have, say, a 12 or 18 month license, which either locks or vanishes when it expires? Do enough casual console gamers want to actually do that?

I sort of hope that'll be a step too far. I'd suggest they will have renewable licences if you want to go online with a game, though.

[confettiinmyhair]

Is there any future for High Street gaming stores? Could Sony or Microsoft ape the Apple Store's Hight Street model? Maybe chuck in a cafe or create a retro like Arcade environment?

[NoSleep]

Sony already have their own high street stores but have, thus far, not featured gaming in them. I'm not sure whether or not you can buy a PS3 in one of their stores, either (not having done more than window-shop at them, because they looked like you'd be dogged by a sales assistant as soon as you opened the door).

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yeah they tend to be quite aggressive, but it's just hifis and tellies they flog to you.

Is there any future for High Street gaming stores?

As long as the items are physical and tradeable 2nd hand the answer has to be 'Yes, in some shape or form'.

What surprised me was when CEX started accepting used CDs from the public- surely that is just throwing good money away. But apparently not. Most CEXs are absolute dumps with overly loud niche music and staffed by grunting monotonous heavy metal fans that smell wrong and barely make an effort to even be civil. The queues to trade stuff in are often out of their door and with 45 minutes to an hour wait. They must be doing something right though...

The big sadness is that game stores are on the whole unbelievably boring and unambitious in so many ways. The range of stock is dull, the presentation of the stock is dull, the pricing policy is uncreative and rigid. The connection between high street and internet presence isn't ever capitalised on, there are too few game pods with too few interesting things on. This is a world where teenagers will happily camp out all night for the chance to be the first owners of the latest new stuff. Was this just a result of allowing the market leader to just chomp all the competition up and become bloated, lazy and inefficient?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Apple aren't really 'High Street' - they're usually based in City Centres.

The real High Streets are the places in small towns and suburbs of large cities.  They're the ones that will have to change or die.

[Ignatius_S]

So with publishers being pissed off at losing money to pre-owned sales, will there be a gradual shift towards encouraging people to download games which have, say, a 12 or 18 month license, which either locks or vanishes when it expires? Do enough casual console gamers want to actually do that?

I can't see that working – not at the amount that companies want for their games, anyway.. Even if it's a game was one that someone  isn't likely to play after a year or so, the fact that they don't 'own' the game is too much of a bitter pill.

I sort of hope that'll be a step too far. I'd suggest they will have renewable licences if you want to go online with a game, though.

I think what would be more likely is that online play is free, but there's various bonus content that costs money. With MMOs, we've been seeing a move away from subscription-based games to freemium as games are struggling with the former.

Also, as games seem to be increasingly incorporate online play, having another charge to access that content would be tricky – it would help tackle the second-hand sales though.

Is there any future for High Street gaming stores? Could Sony or Microsoft ape the Apple Store's Hight Street model? Maybe chuck in a cafe or create a retro like Arcade environment?

The main problem would be achieving what Ron Johnson, who was the main behind the Apple bricks and mortars stores, was striving for with the Apple shops – namely to create a user experience that punters will be a premium for. In the States, this was a challenge as if you buy online there's no sales tax (except for one or two states) or there are big chains that offer a discount. Over here, that's less so – an iPod will cost roughly the same online or offline, but the stores follow the same model.

Why the above is a problem is because of the main reasons that Game and Gamestation merger went through was the Commission report stated that the single most important buying factor for gamers was price – it also noted that online retail in this sector was booming. It claimed that Game's pricing was pretty much equivalent to online sellers, but if the company used its high street monopoly to jack up prices, gamers would go elsewhere. I think the report was a little sanguine about certain matters, but I think it was dead right to say that gamers will go for cheaper prices.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I think it's worth mentioning, imitating the Apple store model isn't a doddle. Some retailers have tried - Carphone Warehouse is a good example – but I would say it's been on a superficial level, the shop looks nice, but the shopping experience isn't a stand-out. Before Apple opened up the first store, it rented a warehouse and a shop was mocked up – it went through different and different revisions, until the company thought it was 'right'. In all this, Johnson took the lead this  - his impact can not be overstated and that kind of attention to detail is hard to get right.

[Thursday]

It was discussed on a podcast that I listened to that perhaps focusing on the niche markets is the way for game stores to go. Make them more sociable places to go, have staff recommendations for games in the way that book or DVD stores might. People can get the new Call of Duty or Fifa from Asda, they might be willing try out experimental, weird indie games if stores were willing to put in the effort to promote them more.

It might not prove to be a successful model, but it would be an example of something  that high streets offer that the internet doesn't, and it could be a place that might actually be nice to be in. Unlike CEX and you wouldn't be treated like an idiot in the way that you are in Game. And trying to create a sense of loyalty to a store is something that might make people more willing to spend a few extra pounds rather than getting it online. Obviously that's not an easy thing to do.

[MojoJojo]

So with publishers being pissed off at losing money to pre-owned sales, will there be a gradual shift towards encouraging people to download games which have, say, a 12 or 18 month license, which either locks or vanishes when it expires? Do enough casual console gamers want to actually do that?

What possible reason would they have to disable the game after 12/18months?

Although they could for online multiplayer, I guess.

[Still Not George]

Rumours are spiralling about that the next-generation PS and XBox will both have single-activation DRM. Which basically puts paid to the entire used market.

[Borboski]

I've got to say that the selection of available games has been for a long time pretty shitty.  I'm sure there are a few smaller interesting things, plus I'd accept maybe I'm not the target audience... but it's dire.  I walked into GAME the other day to see if anything took my fancy, and the top 10 lists are all shit.  Everything is FPS these days, even the RPGS.

Dark Souls was interesting and novel, I'll accept that.  Skyrim... starting to think it's shit.  No real storyline, wander from place to place, boring dungeons with boring quests.  Then it's just loads of shooters.  Stuff like Kinect is floated and eventually appears as a boring gimmick.

[Famous Mortimer]

Rumours are spiralling about that the next-generation PS and XBox will both have single-activation DRM. Which basically puts paid to the entire used market.

Not surprised, really, I guess they've been testing the waters with stuff like the codes for online racing games, etc.

But if you can't sell the thing after you've bought it, then something will have to give - as it is, I'm not sure I'd have been thrilled to pay top whack for some of the games out there. But what do I know?

[Consignia]

Rumours are spiralling about that the next-generation PS and XBox will both have single-activation DRM. Which basically puts paid to the entire used market.

I wonder how the public will react to this. I'm sure there's not going to be huge fanfare, but will drift people away from retail subconsciously to digital distribution. I can imagine lot's people would think "not going to be arsed with this" when they can't sell on their old shit and just stop buying.

[NoSleep]

Blocking out the secondhand market will stop people trying games that have grown into series that they might not have known that they like if the only choice was to pay full price or go without. Someone that tries the first game out for a reduced secondhand price may be one of the people queuing for the next in the series.

[mikeyg27]

Blocking out the secondhand market will stop people trying games that have grown into series that they might not have known that they like if the only choice was to pay full price or go without. Someone that tries the first game out for a reduced secondhand price may be one of the people queuing for the next in the series.

Very true. This is what happened with me and Mass Effect. I went from buying the first one in CeX to buying ME3 on launch day.

Incidentally, my experience in trying to buy ME2 1st hand (in case I likely wanted any of the DLC) summed up a lot of my problems with games retail - it was absolutely impossible to buy it in any shop unless it was pre-owned, and it's not like this is a niche title. It's barely even two years old. I had to get it on Amazon in the end.

[MojoJojo]

The argument would be that the price of games would come down. At the moment, only first week sales count, as far as publishers/developers are concerned. There's no point competing on price, from the publishers point of view, because the only sales the publishers see are from people too stupid/hyped to not have the common sense to wait a month and buy the game at a much cheaper price.

It might open the market up for smaller, niche games that don't have the budget and simple concept to be hyped enough to push enough people to buy new.
It might open up some price competition - PES[nb]I really have no idea when it comes to football games[/nb] might not have the licenses for player names, but it's £10 cheaper.
It might make publishers more willing to take a few risks, as they'll have a greater chance to recover some of their costs in the long term.

The second hand market has a real distorting effect on games industry. The focus on massive budget and massively hyped triple-A titles and the encroachment of multiplayer[nb]multiplayer has the dual effect of encouraging people to buy at launch before everyone else gets good, and keeping people playing and holding onto games for a long time- CoD being so successful in sales isn't just down to it being a good game[/nb] into everything can both been seen as direct reactions to the second-hand market.

It's notable that the current download game markets with DRM (iOS, Xbox Arcade, PSN, Steam) are all cheaper and far more varied than the shop sold stuff.

People always assume stopping second hand sales is about extracting more money from consumers, but really it's about getting the money that goes to CeX or GAME to go to publishers and developers. Gaming isn't an essential, consumers are only going to spend what they want to on games, and if publishers think they can charge £50 for a game, for ever, by eliminating the second hand market they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. Prices would almost have to come down, as people just won't pay £50 in sufficient numbers if they can't sell it on, or can sell other games to subsidise the price.

Of course, publishers are greedy so could easily shoot themselves in the foot. Current prices of Triple-AAA sold for download aren't encouraging (Halo is £12, I think)[nb]although there might be complicating publishing arrangements here keeping the price artificially high, like with buying download films[/nb], but losing the second hand market doesn't have to be the massive disaster that many people assume.

_{While I am in David Braben's loft, I've never actually met him or seen him.}

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

.    I really have no idea when it comes to football games

At the last time of checking (albeit a few years back) PES had most player names but not all English Premier League and other European league team names. I know you care greatly! :)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Rumours are spiralling about that the next-generation PS and XBox will both have single-activation DRM. Which basically puts paid to the entire used market.

Which will in turn create a higher demand for cracked/unlocked/whatever black market games rather than a fairly healthy and legitimate market for second hand goods.

[Ignatius_S]

The argument would be that the price of games would come down. At the moment, only first week sales count, as far as publishers/developers are concerned. There's no point competing on price, from the publishers point of view, because the only sales the publishers see are from people too stupid/hyped to not have the common sense to wait a month and buy the game at a much cheaper price.....

But not all games down in price - a lot do, but not all. It isn't that far until Starcraft 2 celebrates its second birthday - £35 at launch and you won't get much change from £30 now.

Although I knew I could wait for the price of Fallout New Vegas to come down and in fact, I was thinking about doing exactly that, I decided to get it when it came out. It took rather longer than a month for it to drop in price, but even if it did, I calculate that it cost just me just over 40p per hour a play for my first walkthrough... you know, I don't that's bad value for money. One reason I decided to bit the bullet as I thought it would be enhance the playing enjoyment by discussing it on CaB - I wasn't wrong.

...It might open the market up for smaller, niche games that don't have the budget and simple concept to be hyped enough to push enough people to buy new....

That market is now being served by Steam, Nintendo download store, Apple's App Store etc. It's not just about the price - getting a seller to stock your product is obviously important.

....The second hand market has a real distorting effect on games industry. The focus on massive budget and massively hyped triple-A titles and the encroachment of multiplayer into everything can both been seen as direct reactions to the second-hand market.....

There was already a focus on big budgets and ever-expanding teams - one reasons more money was being spent because the possible returns were so high. That's not to say the second-hand market has nothing to do with it, but there were other factors at play. Multiplayer I think was more as a reaction to that, but I also think it was perceived as the future of gaming and not just for economic reasons.

....It's notable that the current download game markets with DRM (iOS, Xbox Arcade, PSN, Steam) are all cheaper and far more varied than the shop sold stuff....

Sure, those can be inherent advantages online distribution, but there are advantages to brick and mortars store. Actually, now I think about it, when Gamestop got into digital distribution, one thing was being touted was that you could go into a branch, chat with staff, find a game that sounded good even if they didn't have a physical copy in stock.

Although Steam can be cheaper, it's usually to do with sales and special offers. Rage, for instance, is a very reasonable £29.99 and so is Dawn of War 2 Retribution - they have been on special offer on Steam, but Game was selling those both substantially cheaper as standard. Rage was usually a tenner. The standard prices on Steam are often rather expensive - Skyrim can be had cheaper elsewhere, but Steam is selling convenience (e.g. on-demand and easy patching).

iOS has its own ecosystem, so it's not comparing like for like. Games are indeed cheaper, but unless you know what you're looking for it can be hard to find something good - not that you'll be likely thinking 'Well, that was the worst waste of 69p' but at the moment, it's mainly casual gaming and can be pretty throwaway.

I know choice is great - we're always being told that we should have a choice where we get treated fro medical conditions, where children can be sent to school etc etc, but most people want quality first without it being too difficult.

.......Gaming isn't an essential, consumers are only going to spend what they want to on games, and if publishers think they can charge £50 for a game, for ever, by eliminating the second hand market they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. Prices would almost have to come down, as people just won't pay £50 in sufficient numbers if they can't sell it on, or can sell other games to subsidise the price....

Either the price comes down or they're going to offer a hell of a lot more. PC games are always cheaper and don't have the same second-hand market, so I suspect the former.

Which will in turn create a higher demand for cracked/unlocked/whatever black market games rather than a fairly healthy and legitimate market for second hand goods.

Yet Steam has done rather well and you'll see lots of users saying they don't pirate as much or at all because of it.

[VegaLA]

Rumours are spiralling about that the next-generation PS and XBox will both have single-activation DRM. Which basically puts paid to the entire used market.

I wonder if a shitty move like that would extend the current Gen lifecycle? Certainly would at my house!

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yet Steam has done rather well and you'll see lots of users saying they don't pirate as much or at all because of it.

Steam has done well through understanding the needs and the various whims of the customer. The packages they do are creative and imaginative and there's a logistical ease to it that's quite scary to an impulse buyer like myself (I deliberately try to stay logged out of it).

[Zetetic]

I sometimes think that Steam's really shown how little had to be done to make PC gamers happy to switch away from piracy and embrace fairly hefty DRM[nb]By making, 'software as a service' be something more than just poking the user in the eye.[/nb]; the user experience is heaps better these days (and that ongoing change is a good indication in itself), but I've found it remarkably irritating at times and yet still appreciated it.

I'm actually not sure there's any other company that I've nearly as much goodwill towards, particularly not one that's taken so much of money (albeit really quite often as a middle-man). Which worries me a little actually, because I know that's partly because I haven't suffered some issues that still seem prevalent when you end up in an unusual situation - like having your account hacked.

It's notable that the current download game markets with DRM (iOS, Xbox Arcade, PSN, Steam) are all cheaper and far more varied than the shop sold stuff.

There are some fairly massive confounding factors there, though.

I do agree though that a likely consequence of killing off the second-hand market (along with a shift towards digital distribution) would be much more price flexibility.