RTD back for Doctor Who

[Deanjam]

Sad to see Bernard Cribbins has died. Looks like Who will be his final role. R.I.P.

[thr0b]

Perfect way for him to go out. Hopefully they have enough footage for his part of the story.

[Alberon]

I would expect all his role was filmed. It was a good few weeks ago he was spotted on location.

93 is a good age but it is still a real shame he's gone.

[Replies From View]

Mate we've only just finished fitting the TARDIS out with ramps 'n shit.

Seems to have been a lovely bloke - certainly a very charming presence wherever he's appeared for me.  R.I.P.

[BritishHobo]

Heartbreaking, what an absolute treasure. It is lovely he was able to do this one last time. I wonder how he was on set; could end up being a very affecting appearance for Wilf.

[Mister Six]

Lots of crying emojis on Facebook, but I dunno - he lived to 93, happily married for much of that time, had a successful career and in his later years became beloved by generations around the world. We should all be so lucky.

[Replies From View]

Lucky lucky lucky
We should all be so lucky
In love

[H-O-W-L]

I've been hitting the Cyber-pipe pretty hard and watching a lot of Cybermen stories, reading Cyberliterature, etc, etc... and I was thinking about how i'd do a new and interesting Cyberman story, and I was thinking of one where the Doctor finds some eighties cybermen, like, Attack of the Cybermen/Earthshock era ones, still trapped on Earth in the far future, and finds out that they're like, failing, and all they want is his help in order to survive. they aren't hostile, they aren't demanding, and they don't want to convert anyone -- they just want to survive. and the conflict comes from human society -- which knows and fears the like, space-faring cybermen as a hostile and assimilant force, in contrast to these old-school cybermen who were just a product of survival-at-all-costs.

their bodies failing, their emotional restrictions breaking down, they're starting to feel again. they're starting to tire again, and it's tearing them apart both literally and figuratively, and they're unsure of who or what they are anymore, or what they want beyond getting out of the sinking ship their bodies have become.

Probably been done by Big Finish already but I felt it'd be a neat concept to explore -- the Cybermen brought to a knee, instead of just being this Warhammer 40,000 bullshit megarace of space-faring ship-borne conquerors that they've been since Nightmare in Silver. Actually explore how they're humans who didn't want to let go of life -- but were all too willing to let go of everything else.

[purlieu]

The only Nu Who Cybermen story I like is World Enough and Time, which actually captures some of that. I hate the Cybus ones, the story that they've been forced into it is less insidiously unpleasant than the idea that they've done it to themselves.

[H-O-W-L]

That and the Cybusmen are too posthuman. Like, it's horrific that their body just gets junked and their brain is slurped into a tin can, but then... that's it. Like, that's it. That's straight up a form of death, is it not? Whereas the original Mondasian cybermen are... far, far worse than that. The fact they sounded like they could still feel some forms of pain in the earlier serials too... shudder.

[Malcy]

Yeah classic Cybermen deaths used to be accompanied by a painful scream. Never liked the new Cybermen at all. Too stompy and robotic. The body horror of what they had done to themselves was always there in classic Who.

[H-O-W-L]

I think the over-obsession with forcible conversion (only a sometimes thing in Old Who) has really rotted their motivations and scarefactor too, bizarrely enough.

[purlieu]

Indeed, they were never the Borg.
And don't get me started on "delete".

[Malcy]

Indeed, they were never the Borg.
And don't get me started on "delete".

Or even "you will be assimilated".

[JamesTC]

My thoughts exactly. Hate that stomping. Hate "delete". Ruined my favourite villains.

Weirdly, for the classic series, my least favourite design was the version used in The Invasion/Revenge of the Cybermen, despite that being the most iconic. Love them all in the classic series though.

Also agree that the transparent chin worked wonderfully well in establishing that there is a living person in there. Something so subtle but very effective.

[daf]

And don't get me started on "delete".

"You will be Copied and Pasted"

"Auto-correct! Auto-correct!"

[H-O-W-L]

The fact the visible chin is painted silver too, because of the shadowing and lighting it looks like a horrible row of metal teeth gnashing up and down as the Cyber-Leader speaks. Something inimitable, implacable about it. It moves in time with his words and resembles human mouthparts moving and speaking.... but really really isn't. Shuddersome.

[Replies From View]

Yeah classic Cybermen deaths used to be accompanied by a painful scream. Never liked the new Cybermen at all. Too stompy and robotic. The body horror of what they had done to themselves was always there in classic Who.

The stomping aspect (seemingly the Wrong Trousers sound effect) has been a blight on Cybermen since 2006, even contaminating the Nu Who version of the Mondasian fellas at the end of series 10.  They're creepier when they're stealthy and silent you dummies!

[Malcy]

The stomping aspect (seemingly the Wrong Trousers sound effect) has been a blight on Cybermen since 2006, even contaminating the Nu Who version of the Mondasian fellas at the end of series 10.  They're creepier when they're stealthy and silent you dummies!

I just preferred when they had personalities as such. Not this stompy, robotic suit with robotic movement, robotic voice. Was better when they did shit like "Excellent" and clenched a fist. Made them seem more like a villain with human properties. Rather than a tin suit with a harvested brain in it.

The appeal is that they are people who have gone to the extreme to survive.

[JamesTC]

I just preferred when they had personalities as such. Not this stompy, robotic suit with robotic movement, robotic voice. Was better when they did shit like "Excellent" and clenched a fist. Made them seem more like a villain with human properties. Rather than a tin suit with a harvested brain in it.

The appeal is that they are people who have gone to the extreme to survive.

Definitely.

In the classic series, I felt they had suppressed their emotions rather than erased them completely.

[thr0b]

These days, you could swap Daleks and Cybermen in any story without any consequences or need for significant re-writes.

[Replies From View]

Must admit I always found the 80s Cybermen too chunkily designed and I wasn't a fan of their voices, though I can see their appeal.

Always felt the 60s ones were spookier in all respects.  Somehow they came across as more fragile, less robust, and this worked in their favour.

[jamiefairlie]

Iiiii li ked theeeeee we ard innnn tona nations of theeee ohhh riginals

[Replies From View]

These days, you could swap Daleks and Cybermen in any story without any consequences or need for significant re-writes.

and they throw you in prison

[Deanjam]

Both the Daleks and Cybermen work best when they're being sneaky little shits. I love the bit in Moonbase where they can't work out how the Cybermen have been getting in and out of the base, and they suddenly realise that the corpse under a sheet in sickbay is a cyberman, and it's just been hiding in plain sight the whole time. And I love Power of the Daleks, where the Daleks are just manipulating the greedy humans, and the Doctor is the only one who can see it.

When these monsters are just massive armies stomping around, it's where they're least interesting. The 60s did both best.

[purlieu]

Yeah, the '80s ones are already moving towards generic villains with Mr. Blobby voices, to be honest. World Enough and Time is actually the only post-'60s TV Cybermen story I like.

[H-O-W-L]

I dunno, I quite like Earthshock. I love some bits of Silver Nemesis too but it's mostly dull to me. I specifically like the 80s Cybermen because I think it's sort of clear they're more like, Cyber-soldiers than specifically This Is What All Cybermen Are Like, I think it's brought up in Big Finish even that they're a specific faction of Cybermen that are more war-oriented? I like that idea a lot. Cybermen having outer shells they replace/swap for what they intend to do.

If the RTD Cybusmen were like this I'd respect them but as it stands it makes no fucking sense for John Lumic, a terminally ill man who wants to survive, to make a gigafucker iron man suit that's all rigid and shit. A far better execution of that concept is Samuel Hayden in Doom, who is similarly a terminally ill man and wants to survive, and proceeds to make a gigafucker mechsuit... but his is way more flexible and cool as well as being heavily armored and whatnot. Also his voice is sexy whereas the nu-Briggs ones are just lame. DELETE DELETE.

[grainger]

I quite like the look of the 80s cybermen, but I agree that the 60s ones are better (especially the very weird first version). However. by the 80s the Cybermen were way too easily defeated - they might look tough but as the decade went on (as one book I read put it), you only have to say the word "gold" to them for them to collapse in convulsions.

The RTD cybermen were shit. Generic, with a lame catchphrase, and an annoying stomping sound. They didn't actually seem very scary, and the method of conversion was stupid - it was very perfunctory (some spinning blades whir away momentarily) - and lacked the psychological horror that was the whole point of the Cybermen. Much as I don't like Moffat's Who, his take on the Cybermen origin story was far better - it gave them back what they've been lacking all this time. Then Chibnall makes them generic again. I guess one problem with the Cybers is that their main thing is in their background, and if a story doesn't deal with that, then they tend to be quite generic. You kind of need to remind the viewers that they slowly lost their humanity in the story, rather than just have armies of ponderous metal giants stomping around.

[H-O-W-L]

I really like the look and voice of the Lone Cyberman/Ashad. But I hate everything else to do with him. When I say I like his voice though I really, really mean it. His voice is disgusting and loud and all-consuming and that's honestly great. He looks and sounds like a fucked up grinded-up posthuman monstrosity. An affront to god and nature and gaia and whatever else. A monument to all sins. But then his plot is "I'm a bastard! Oh, no, the Master's here, tatty-bye."

[A Hat Like That]

I've been hitting the Cyber-pipe pretty hard and watching a lot of Cybermen stories, reading Cyberliterature, etc, etc... and I was thinking about how i'd do a new and interesting Cyberman story, and I was thinking of one where the Doctor finds some eighties cybermen, like, Attack of the Cybermen/Earthshock era ones, still trapped on Earth in the far future, and finds out that they're like, failing, and all they want is his help in order to survive. they aren't hostile, they aren't demanding, and they don't want to convert anyone -- they just want to survive. and the conflict comes from human society -- which knows and fears the like, space-faring cybermen as a hostile and assimilant force, in contrast to these old-school cybermen who were just a product of survival-at-all-costs.

their bodies failing, their emotional restrictions breaking down, they're starting to feel again. they're starting to tire again, and it's tearing them apart both literally and figuratively, and they're unsure of who or what they are anymore, or what they want beyond getting out of the sinking ship their bodies have become.

Probably been done by Big Finish already but I felt it'd be a neat concept to explore -- the Cybermen brought to a knee, instead of just being this Warhammer 40,000 bullshit megarace of space-faring ship-borne conquerors that they've been since Nightmare in Silver. Actually explore how they're humans who didn't want to let go of life -- but were all too willing to let go of everything else.

Really like this.

The only other thing I've read done different is in the Cyberman/6th Doctor PDA where the humans decide to fight fire with fire and partially convert their own.