Anyone watched Twin Peaks recently?

[Magnum Valentino]

I know there's old threads but they're massive and I thought I'd start one for the people who may have got into this since the comeback season finished.

I'm about five episodes into the Showtime episodes and finding the Dougie stuff interminable, but any time we're permitted to hang out in Twin Peaks it's as good as it ever was.

The appearance of Andy and Lucy's son was particularly good and I was so pleased when Robert Forster turned up in what looks like an ongoing role.

What I could do without is the rampant sexualisation of almost all female characters in season 3. It's just really leery and unpleasant. Moving to cable should not be treated as an encouragement to indulge, in that regard. The violence and gore is a bit much too but at least that falls under the classification of horror.

Loved season 1 and Fire Walk With Me but working through the back end of season 2 of Twin Peaks was one of the hardest grinding I've ever done for something that's supposed to be enjoyable. Charmless and without tone or direction.

Who all likes Twin Peaks?

And is that it, is Josie in that drawer knob forever?

[madhair60]

showtime twin peaks is one of the best things ever broadcast cheers.

[mjwilson]

What I could do without is the rampant sexualisation of almost all female characters in season 3. It's just really leery and unpleasant. Moving to cable should not be treated as an encouragement to indulge, in that regard.

Just trying to recall which characters this refers to... Jade obviously, but I can think of a load of female characters who aren't sexualised to any particular degree (as far as I remember anyway). If you are only up to part 5 then I won't make a list of them for spoilers' sake.

[JamesTC]

The Return is the best Twin Peaks. I love Dougie Mr Beaning about the place.


_{Yes, I am aware that Mr Bean and Dougie both share their inspiration in Jacques Tati.}

[mjwilson]

Just trying to recall which characters this refers to... Jade obviously, but I can think of a load of female characters who aren't sexualised to any particular degree (as far as I remember anyway). If you are only up to part 5 then I won't make a list of them for spoilers' sake.

Oh I forgot the girl who gets her head bitten off, didn't I.

[Mister Six]

Just trying to recall which characters this refers to... Jade obviously, but I can think of a load of female characters who aren't sexualised to any particular degree (as far as I remember anyway). If you are only up to part 5 then I won't make a list of them for spoilers' sake.

The camera absolutely pervs all over Chrysta Bell, including a hideous bit with a lingering arse shot followed by Cole and Albert nodding approvingly. It's horrible. Her character seems to exist purely to receive exposition and let David Lynch hang out with her for days on end, and it's very disappointing.

There are some well-written female characters (the medical examiner and Dougie's wife being the two obvious standouts) but yeah, it's absolutely open to criticism on that front.

An amazing show all the same.

[Magnum Valentino]

The woman who brings the coffee in the first episode, Dougie's hooker, Evil Coop's criminal pal who gets murdered in her knickers and Cole's chosen FBI woman. There's at least one per episode.

Don't defend this one lads, it's there. Women's bodies in Twin Peaks are there to be ogled, let's get this one out of the way so we can talk about the good things but there's absolutely no defending that fucking shot mentioned above where the two lads watch her arse as she walks away and Albert says "I feel better NOW".

If you can't remember it it's possibly because you've become desensitised to it.

It just made me a bit sad because it feels like the toy box was unlocked and that's what Lynch went for. It has negatively coloured my enjoyment of the series which was previously quite odd and sweet and whose presentation of sexuality was really just endless soapy shots of teenagers snogging while one of three music cues swelled.

Things I'm enjoying so far and looking forward to following - Matthew Lilliard's story; Max Perlich milling about; the unique thrill of seeing how everyone has aged and the anticipation of which Donna they'll use if any; knowing that Trent Reznor will appear: the possibility the David Bowie scene from FWWM will be addressed as I know he consented for footage to be used; the general oddity of the interactions at the Sheriff's office.

Also fucking hell it looks amazing. What's that to do with, cameras? Is it shot on something experimental and new? Films don't look this good like. The shots of Jacoby's cabin looked like reality, actually like looking through a window.

[mjwilson]

The woman who brings the coffee in the first episode, Dougie's hooker, Evil Coop's criminal pal who gets murdered in her knickers and Cole's chosen FBI woman. There's at least one per episode.

Don't defend this one lads, it's there. Women's bodies in Twin Peaks are there to be ogled, let's get this one out of the way so we can talk about the good things but there's absolutely no defending that fucking shot mentioned above where the two lads watch her arse as she walks away and Albert says "I feel better NOW".

Absolutely that is bad stuff and I don't want to defend that. There were some listed above that I had forgotten.

But I still don't think it's true of all the women.

Non-sexualised women characters in The Return, from what I can remember:

Spoiler alert

Lucy
Norma
Shelley
Audrey
That coroner who Albert fancies
Ashley Judd's character

[close]

OK I thought I would have a longer list than that.

Characters who have sex scenes but who I wouldn't say are particularly sexualised:

Spoiler alert

Diane
Janey E

[close]

[Magnum Valentino]

What I said was that there was rampant sexualisation of women in all of the five episodes of season 3 that I watched, which is true and having condemned that I would really love to discuss something else if that's OK.

[falafel]

Is there a fan edit of season two that makes it more tolerable? Is that even possible?

[Magnum Valentino]

Maybe. My wife and I were discussing about how so many of those mid-to-late series 2 plots could be lifted out of the show and they would have no impact on the rest of what was happening. A lot of it seemed to exist in little pockets of isolation and worse yet, when they were resolved, had no impact on later events. Take Audrey being loaded up on heroin when she was kidnapped. Once she was rescued that caused no future issues for her and I can't remember it even being mentioned. Ben's insanity with the civil war fixation was the most protracted way imaginable to get him to turn a corner on his stance on Ghostwood and even that went nowhere.

So much of it was just shit, too. Teenage Nadine was played for laughs but the laughs never come. Leo in the wheelchair is just unpleasant and doesn't pay off. Windom Earle is like a fucking Goosebumps baddie. And James' odyssey outside Twin Peaks and leaving the show a few episodes before the end is dreadful.

Season 2 is rough. Is Twin Peaks the biggest dropoff between two consecutive seasons of a show ever maybe?

And given the above praises, the biggest improvement once it came back?

[Blumf]

Hasn't Lynch always had an eye for the ladies? It's pretty much a core theme to his work.

PS, Seems like @Magnum Valentino hasn't hit that scene yet (in part 12). Utterly pointless, except for being a cake-and-eat-it joke on the sexualisation of women.

[Captain Z]

Is there a fan edit of season two that makes it more tolerable? Is that even possible?

There is something called "The Northwest Passage" which combines series 1 and 2 into something like 6-7 hours, mostly from series 1. I believe it ends with

Spoiler alert

Leland's death

[close]

.

I remember skimming through it and it probably cuts out too much if you're then going to go on to series 3. I seem to remember the final 2-3 episodes of series 2 are worth watching in full.

[peanutbutter]

Fire Walk With Me and the Return are probably the only bits of Twin Peaks I would revisit, maybe the finale of season 2 as well.

First time I watched season 2 was on youtube with all the James/Lara Flynn Boyle stuff edited out, some episodes were like 5 minutes long...

[fit bird]

A lot of it seemed to exist in little pockets of isolation and worse yet, when they were resolved, had no impact on later events...

Worst offender for me is the episode with

Spoiler alert

Leland's wake

[close]

which is completely baffling. That whole thing is so shit and weird I honestly wonder if they filmed it when the killer's identity was still a secret, otherwise it's hard to imagine how they came up with something so misjudged. What a jarring change of mood when the last episode ended with the guy

Spoiler alert

killing himself in police custody.

[close]

.
I'm not sure if anyone in the show ever mentions him again afterwards. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

[mjwilson]

Worst offender for me is the episode with

Spoiler alert

Leland's wake

[close]

which is completely baffling. That whole thing is so shit and weird I honestly wonder if they filmed it when the killer's identity was still a secret, otherwise it's hard to imagine how they came up with something so misjudged.

I think I heard that is exactly what happened, yes. The episode revealing the killer hadn't aired, so it was still all secret.

[sevendaughters]

the shit in series 2 is where Mark Frost thought the show could go. when you read tat like The Secret History of he's up to it again with absolute dreck around the history of the Milfords.

Lynch likes the ladies for sure (the ogling of Chrysta Bell's arse is the low of any series) but I think i. the camera is not Lynch's eye ii. it is set in a world of barely concealed psycho-sexual trauma and iii. there's enough actual whole women with agency and autonomy and even if you like iv. it has a foot in the melodramatic; even the men have a certain idealistic quality to them.

I rewatched S3 maybe a year or so ago with Mrs 7D (I think I did a very long post on the megathread actually EDIT - I did) and it held up for me. Mrs 7D had never seen it before and was really taken with it.

[mjwilson]

I think I heard that is exactly what happened, yes. The episode revealing the killer hadn't aired, so it was still all secret.

More discussion of that episode and how the show is altered after it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGW8U21mBEE&list=PLIHlB-wesGPVETlNFLsGCKL-SFjW8wrJf&index=13

[Noodle Lizard]

Has anyone done a decent fan edit of Twin Peaks? I love the show when it's good, but when it's bad, it's really bad and it goes on forever. I feel like each of the first two seasons could be cut down into 2-hour films without losing too much if you've already seen the rest once.

If I hadn't known that the final episodes of the second season were regarded as the best, I probably would've given up before the halfway mark. I've still not re-watched anything between "the reveal" and the final stretch.

[Magnum Valentino]

the shit in series 2 is where Mark Frost thought the show could go. when you read tat like The Secret History of he's up to it again with absolute dreck around the history of the Milfords.

Lynch likes the ladies for sure (the ogling of Chrysta Bell's arse is the low of any series) but I think i. the camera is not Lynch's eye ii. it is set in a world of barely concealed psycho-sexual trauma and iii. there's enough actual whole women with agency and autonomy and even if you like iv. it has a foot in the melodramatic; even the men have a certain idealistic quality to them.

I rewatched S3 maybe a year or so ago with Mrs 7D (I think I did a very long post on the megathread actually EDIT - I did) and it held up for me. Mrs 7D had never seen it before and was really taken with it.

The camera IS Lynch's eye and I'll die on that hill. As co-creator, co-writer and sole director, nothing's getting into an episode unless he wants it there. There's nothing being said about psychosexual trauma with this level of titillation. Laura Palmer's story was one thing and this is something else.

Saying that it's set in that world is bollocks as well mate. Men created that world, and this one, to suit their own needs. The argument doesn't hold water and we all deserve better. If you're saying that men are treated even remotely comparably with women in this, you need to have another look.

If we were talking something like the endless shots of Justin Theroux with nothing on him in The Leftovers I'd take your point, but the cheesecake in Twin Peaks is female and female only.

I like David Lynch a lot but not enough to turn a blind eye to this. It's fine for him to "have an eye for the ladies" but using them in this way is really unpleasant.

Saying that there are SOME women with agency doesn't count for anything because his attitude towards women is clear from how the rest of them are treated. Besides, this is not about characterisation. Objectification is objectification, without caveat, without qualification, and The Return is riddled with it.

[canted_angle_again]

The Return is my favourite piece of art in any medium ever.

[Magnum Valentino]

It is brilliantly cast. Robert Knepper only a few scenes ahead of Ernie Hudson. Caleb Landry Jones too. Sort of a cherry picking of interesting people who've come up since the original run finished (Hudson excepted obviously).

Just finished episode 5. Wife has officially bowed out, I think the pacing of Dougie's aimless wandering and that rapey creep at the no-smoking table in the bar were a combination too much. Looks like I'm on me own now.

[fit bird]

I think I heard that is exactly what happened, yes. The episode revealing the killer hadn't aired, so it was still all secret.

It must have been frustrating for them to try and work around that, for sure. Even so, that video you linked gets it right, seriously, why are they all so happy!?

[mjwilson]

It must have been frustrating for them to try and work around that, for sure. Even so, that video you linked gets it right, seriously, why are they all so happy!?

Maybe they've put on some really good snacks.

[mjwilson]

Has anyone done a decent fan edit of Twin Peaks? I love the show when it's good, but when it's bad, it's really bad and it goes on forever. I feel like each of the first two seasons could be cut down into 2-hour films without losing too much if you've already seen the rest once.

I love the whole first season and basically all of the first third of the second, so I would hate to see it cut down that much.

[sevendaughters]

The camera IS Lynch's eye and I'll die on that hill. As co-creator, co-writer and sole director, nothing's getting into an episode unless he wants it there. There's nothing being said about psychosexual trauma with this level of titillation. Laura Palmer's story was one thing and this is something else.

Saying that it's set in that world is bollocks as well mate. Men created that world, and this one, to suit their own needs. The argument doesn't hold water and we all deserve better. If you're saying that men are treated even remotely comparably with women in this, you need to have another look.

Lynch being the author and energising creative spirit does not mean he is the perspective from which it is shot. I think there's always been like a slightly ironised ad-man's eye in Lynch's approach to bodies, like a form of ogling and idealisation that borders on the knowledge that it is shifty too, and that we're a bit complicit in that? And that it's slightly okay because we know that it is partly wrong? If that makes sense. I at least think it is more complex than say, I dunno, Baywatch.

Ultimately the original run and film being about the making whole of a woman who appeared to many as a sexualised object seems a greater act of empathy when put against the sum total of leers. Just my view.

And it's not the same for men, no, I never said that. But he does like his authorative archetypes, put it that way.

[Magnum Valentino]

I think you are trying to excuse it because you admire his work, whereas I will not excuse it even if I admire his work.

Excuse, explain, qualify, make peace with, translate, infer, process. Whichever fits best. I cannot make it fit.

I appreciate that you clearly have a better handle on Lynch in general but the art must stand on its own. What is communicated to his viewer is his responsibility and the tools and the methods they enable are not accidental, nor is their meaning transformed by intentions indulged elsewhere.

The treatment of Laura Palmer being made whole from out of the foundation of a sexualised ideal still involved literally sexualising her to an extent to which she had not been previously subject. It doesn't make up for anything. "Means to an end" is not an acceptable defense.

(I apologise for misreading your point about the presentation of the men as a direct analogue of the presentation of the women).

[sevendaughters]

I think you are trying to excuse it because you admire his work, whereas I will not excuse it even if I admire his work.

Excuse, explain, qualify, make peace with, translate, infer, process. Whichever fits best. I cannot make it fit.

I appreciate that you clearly have a better handle on Lynch in general but the art must stand on its own. What is communicated to his viewer is his responsibility and the tools and the methods they enable are not accidental, nor is their meaning transformed by intentions indulged elsewhere.

The treatment of Laura Palmer being made whole from out of the foundation of a sexualised ideal still involved literally sexualising her to an extent to which she had not been previously subject. It doesn't make up for anything. "Means to an end" is not an acceptable defense.

(I apologise for misreading your point about the presentation of the men as a direct analogue of the presentation of the women).

Here's the thing - I am not a megafan of Lynch (though I probably think TP is the most interesting work of his [and also in a way his most flawed, given how many minutes of it are bad]) and think there is validity to any critique of his politics, gender representation, and racial representation to a certain extent. I just think that the show's humaneness at its best and the suggestions that the highest heights of emotion are in these sincere moments between people negates much of these criticisms.

[Magnum Valentino]

But isn't it fair to say that it's entirely possible to succeed at that without the unpleasantness?

It's not a part - at all - of what makes the show successful, which is evident in the successes of the episodes made within the tighter broadcast regulation of the network seasons.

The sex scene in the first episode is a perfect example of something that is without meaning or structural function. Two characters we never see again (?) get killed by a terrifying entity. Why is it necessary that they're fucking while it happens and for the absurd length of slow focus on the woman's form before things get going?

Much like James getting framed for murder while he fixes some nobody's car, Twin Peaks would not suffer from the total removal of tits and ass. In a show where sight and sound are used expertly in order to provoke sensation and thought, it just feels indulgent and in service of a facet of human art that is hopefully in decline, which is the unchecked (and evidently in some cases unchallenged) treatment of woman as commodity.

If that contributes to your enjoyment of this, I will have to leave it there. I cannot deny it will make me uncomfortable for the remainder of the run.

[mjwilson]

But isn't it fair to say that it's entirely possible to succeed at that without the unpleasantness?

It's not a part - at all - of what makes the show successful, which is evident in the successes of the episodes made within the tighter broadcast regulation of the network seasons.

The sex scene in the first episode is a perfect example of something that is without meaning or structural function. Two characters we never see again (?) get killed by a terrifying entity. Why is it necessary that they're fucking while it happens

Weirdly enough this may actually be a critical part of what's going on here, depending on what theories you buy in to and how many of Mark Frost's spin-off books you read.

and for the absurd length of slow focus on the woman's form before things get going?

I can't say the same of that part though.