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Anyone watched Twin Peaks recently?

Started by Magnum Valentino, February 01, 2022, 10:07:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Rev+

Laura whispers 'you've tried this before, it doesn't work, it can't work'

If you could change the past, you would also change yourself.  Where does that leave you?

You should not be here.  A strong enough clue will tell you that.

With that realisation you can tear the theatre down.

Noodle Lizard

If I'm not mistaken, Judy is actually the entity responsible for
Spoiler alert
spawning BOB in the first place, during the nuclear test in Part 8, and in response The Giant/Fireman spawned Laura Palmer.
[close]
I could be misremembering that, though, I'm not quite up to there yet.

As for people ignoring Mark Frost in discussions about anything other than the first two seasons; to be fair, Lynch himself also seems to do that, to the point where openly admits he hasn't even read Frost's various contributions to the lore (I've read a few bits and pieces and, honestly, I think Lynch is wise to ignore them).

I think it's fair to assume that partnership was borne more out of necessity (Lynch wanted to make a TV show, Mark Frost was an experienced TV show writer at the time) than a shared artistic vision. By the time we got The Return, Lynch was clearly in the driver's seat, or at least had the final word on everything. A lot of FWWM and The Return seems predicated on "setting the record straight" from Lynch's point of view, with both (the former especially) containing extensive sequences that predate the events of the original series. I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, though, as I know far less about Twin Peaks than most of its fans do.

Menu


Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Menu on February 07, 2022, 01:43:23 AMHave they fallen out now?

I don't think so, but I imagine they both have an understanding that (as of The Return, anyway) Lynch's interpretation is the more popular of the two of them (Lynch being responsible for the "best bits" of Twin Peaks which have stood the test of time, Frost being responsible for some of the "worst" bits that have largely been forgotten). Of course, Lynch also produced some of his best work after Twin Peaks and gained a renewed fanbase with a new generation of people on the internet, so he was certainly in an advantageous position when it came time to bring it back.

Menu

Interesting. Didn't Lynch also come out and say that everything in S2 was as he wanted - including all the crazy stuff when he didn't seem to be around. That it played out exactly as he wanted it to?

Have you seen that amazing video series on YouTube that goes into it all in great detail. Hours of analysis. I remember eating that up. Got a feeling it hadn't covered S3 last time I looked but it's worth seeing. You're probably way ahead of me though. Even the stuff in this thread I can barely remember even though I loved it at the time.

Noodle Lizard

Nah, I'm in the same boat. I did look into a lot of the analysis around the time The Return was airing, but I'm sure I've forgotten most of it. For me, I'm more just happy it exists rather than thinking understanding every single aspect of it is essential.

So why am I going on about it in this thread? It's Sunday night, and I have nowhere to go.

Menu

Really enjoying it though, thank you. Just realised you're the same guy in The Office thread as well!

mjwilson

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on February 07, 2022, 01:10:09 AMIf I'm not mistaken, Judy is actually the entity responsible for
Spoiler alert
spawning BOB in the first place, during the nuclear test in Part 8, and in response The Giant/Fireman spawned Laura Palmer.
[close]
I could be misremembering that, though, I'm not quite up to there yet.

As for people ignoring Mark Frost in discussions about anything other than the first two seasons; to be fair, Lynch himself also seems to do that, to the point where openly admits he hasn't even read Frost's various contributions to the lore (I've read a few bits and pieces and, honestly, I think Lynch is wise to ignore them).

I think it's fair to assume that partnership was borne more out of necessity (Lynch wanted to make a TV show, Mark Frost was an experienced TV show writer at the time) than a shared artistic vision. By the time we got The Return, Lynch was clearly in the driver's seat, or at least had the final word on everything. A lot of FWWM and The Return seems predicated on "setting the record straight" from Lynch's point of view, with both (the former especially) containing extensive sequences that predate the events of the original series. I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, though, as I know far less about Twin Peaks than most of its fans do.

I do object a bit when people ignore Frost's contributions to The Return, when the two of them wrote it together.

Blumf

I wonder if it's somewhat deliberate to have two voices (Lynch/Frost) controlling Twin Peaks.

Mr Trumpet

Quote from: Menu on February 07, 2022, 02:02:53 AMHave you seen that amazing video series on YouTube that goes into it all in great detail. Hours of analysis. I remember eating that up. Got a feeling it hadn't covered S3 last time I looked but it's worth seeing. You're probably way ahead of me though. Even the stuff in this thread I can barely remember even though I loved it at the time.

Do you mean Joel Bocko's brilliant Journey Through Twin Peaks series? He's added some S3 stuff but I think there's more planned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUUXpk4U3w

He's very big on giving Mark Frost the credit he deserves. A surprising amount of the story (including Laura Palmer as a character!) came from him originally, and apparently his fingerprints are all over S3 as well.

Ascent

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on February 07, 2022, 02:38:46 PMDo you mean Joel Bocko's brilliant Journey Through Twin Peaks series? He's added some S3 stuff but I think there's more planned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUUXpk4U3w

He's very big on giving Mark Frost the credit he deserves. A surprising amount of the story (including Laura Palmer as a character!) came from him originally, and apparently his fingerprints are all over S3 as well.

Thanks for this, never seen his videos before.

I watched about half of this one by Twin Perfect, but gave up as it just got more and more convoluted

He's very happy to say we can comfortably ignore things that don't fit his theories, as that is definitely what Lynch intended. In fact I'm sure he says something along the lines of all the crap stuff comes from Mark Frost and so can be ignored, as he doesn't understand Twin Peaks.

Magnum Valentino

Aye that channel came in for a kicking on one of the old megathreads because of its (his?) treatment of another Youtuber.

Firmly in the 'Mark Frost is important to Twin Peaks' camp myself and quite keen to check out his Final Dossier book.

I.D. Smith

I really enjoyed both The Final Dossier and Secret History as audiobooks. Granted, they are bit more grounded in traditional sci-fi which, I'm guessing, is more the Frost influence (feels a bit like reading an X Files novel), but they were still great. To be fair, my opinion might have been influenced by the fact I listened to them both during the first year of the pandemic, usually while sat alone on a bench in my local park, drinking a coffee. The world felt quite otherworldly at that point, which maybe affected my view on the books.

I keep meaning to do a S3 rewatch as well - this thread has put me in the mood, so thanks!

Rev+

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on February 07, 2022, 01:10:09 AMI think it's fair to assume that partnership was borne more out of necessity (Lynch wanted to make a TV show, Mark Frost was an experienced TV show writer at the time) than a shared artistic vision.

This really isn't true, but it's a common belief because Lynch is so much more of a known quantity.  It's easier to recognise his fingerprints on Twin Peaks because it's stuff that echoes things he's done elsewhere, but with Frost you've got someone whose work isn't so instantly identifiable, meaning it can get lost in the mix a bit.  He's absolutely all over the third series though, as he's a complete maddo about occult stuff.  To momentarily bring it back to tits and that, the first sex scene in the series is blatantly his work.  The one near the end seems to be Lynch riffing on the same idea.  They both reference a real-life bit of lunacy that's mentioned in the Secret History book.

They were kind of put together in the first instance, but it was for a Marilyn Monroe biopic that ended up not happening.  They'd hit it off and wanted to work on something or other after that fell through, so the guy who had commissioned the biopic suggested they have a stab at a primetime soap opera.  It was both of them from the start, but they've always pulled in slightly different directions.  Which is healthy, it's kind of what you want.  It's probably fair to say that most of the 'mythology' in Twin Peaks comes from Frost, while most of the real-world trauma comes from Lynch.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Rev+ on February 07, 2022, 08:48:11 PMThis really isn't true, but it's a common belief because Lynch is so much more of a known quantity.  It's easier to recognise his fingerprints on Twin Peaks because it's stuff that echoes things he's done elsewhere, but with Frost you've got someone whose work isn't so instantly identifiable, meaning it can get lost in the mix a bit.  He's absolutely all over the third series though, as he's a complete maddo about occult stuff.  To momentarily bring it back to tits and that, the first sex scene in the series is blatantly his work.  The one near the end seems to be Lynch riffing on the same idea.  They both reference a real-life bit of lunacy that's mentioned in the Secret History book.

They were kind of put together in the first instance, but it was for a Marilyn Monroe biopic that ended up not happening.  They'd hit it off and wanted to work on something or other after that fell through, so the guy who had commissioned the biopic suggested they have a stab at a primetime soap opera.  It was both of them from the start, but they've always pulled in slightly different directions.  Which is healthy, it's kind of what you want.  It's probably fair to say that most of the 'mythology' in Twin Peaks comes from Frost, while most of the real-world trauma comes from Lynch.

Thanks for clearing that up a bit. As I say, I'm far from an expert on Twin Peaks, so I mostly take my assumptions from the little I've read or observed. I'd always heard that it was Lynch's idea to do a soap opera, I had no idea it came from someone else entirely.

Mr Trumpet

Yeah it would be a massive oversimplification to credit Frost with the plot and characters, and Lynch with the mood and the psychological subtext. But it wouldn't be completely wrong either.

Old Nehamkin

#76
Quote from: Rev+ on February 07, 2022, 08:48:11 PMThis really isn't true, but it's a common belief because Lynch is so much more of a known quantity.  It's easier to recognise his fingerprints on Twin Peaks because it's stuff that echoes things he's done elsewhere, but with Frost you've got someone whose work isn't so instantly identifiable, meaning it can get lost in the mix a bit.  He's absolutely all over the third series though, as he's a complete maddo about occult stuff.  To momentarily bring it back to tits and that, the first sex scene in the series is blatantly his work.  The one near the end seems to be Lynch riffing on the same idea.  They both reference a real-life bit of lunacy that's mentioned in the Secret History book.

They were kind of put together in the first instance, but it was for a Marilyn Monroe biopic that ended up not happening.  They'd hit it off and wanted to work on something or other after that fell through, so the guy who had commissioned the biopic suggested they have a stab at a primetime soap opera.  It was both of them from the start, but they've always pulled in slightly different directions.  Which is healthy, it's kind of what you want.  It's probably fair to say that most of the 'mythology' in Twin Peaks comes from Frost, while most of the real-world trauma comes from Lynch.

Good and interesting post. I always find it a little sad how Frost tends to get dismissed by Twin Peaks fans. I think that people generally find it more comfortable and satisfying to think about art in auteurist terms if possible, and it's especially tempting to think that way when a figure like David Lynch is involved. I think some folk find it necessary to diminish Frost's contributions to the Good Stuff and exaggerate his responsibility for the Bad Stuff in order to preserve their image of Lynch as the all-pervading master presenting his unobscured personal psyche on screen with no creative mediator.

It's not surprising or even unjustified that Lynch gets more attention than Frost, of course. He's David Lynch. I just find it kind of strange when I see people on Twitter or Letterboxd breathlessly talking up The Return as the greatest work of narrative cinema of the 21st century or whatever while also being flatly dismissive of the guy who co-wrote every single episode of that season and, incidentally, has more writing credits on the acclaimed parts of the original series than any other person, Lynch included.

Might as well add in here that I'm seemingly in the minority in really enjoying Frost's Secret History book. There's a lot of goofy nonsense in there but it's fun seeing Frost getting to give free rein to some of his obsessions that are touched on more obscurely in the TV show. I basically see it as Frost's distilled personal take on the Twin Peaks mythos in the same way that Fire Walk With Me was for Lynch. I also love the ridiculous left-fieldedness of this long-awaited continuation of the show's universe just completely revolving around the life story of Dougie Milford of all fucking people. Criticise it if you like, but at least it isn't pandering.

sevendaughters

I can see why Frost gets sidelined to some extent: the show is the phenomenon it is because of its unique tone and visual flair. Not to say we should sideline Frost and I'm not a huge Cult of Lynch guy, but it is far closer to other Lynch works than it is Hill Street Blues.

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: sevendaughters on February 08, 2022, 09:39:21 AMI can see why Frost gets sidelined to some extent: the show is the phenomenon it is because of its unique tone and visual flair. Not to say we should sideline Frost and I'm not a huge Cult of Lynch guy, but it is far closer to other Lynch works than it is Hill Street Blues.

That's an interesting comparison and I actually do think that the original Twin Peaks shares a fair bit of DNA with Hill Street Blues. I think that the significance of Twin Peaks in the evolution of TV drama and its influences within that medium have become a bit overlooked amid the modern tendency for people to situate the show purely within Lynch's cinematic canon, which I think misses some important nuance about the show's television lineage (and I would apply this to both the original series and the revival).

QDRPHNC

Mark Frost is a funny one for me, because I love conspiracies, the occult, weird history all that stuff, so his books should be right up my street. But somehow I feel they would make Twin Peaks less for me, bring this weird beautiful thing you have to feel your way through down to Earth. Maybe it's his work that sets the boundaries, then Lynch goes and plays in it, I don't know.

I was thinking earlier that there are maybe three scenes that I really, really wish weren't in there. The first is the Bob getting punched scene. I tried to get on with it. I may even have lied to myself at the time that I liked it, but nah. The second is the bum-ogling scene, and the third is the scene where they explain who Judy is. I was really surprised that they put such direct exposition in there, stuck out like a sore thumb.

I reckon Frost is responsible for a good portion of the memorable dialogue exchanges in the original series, for example I know he wrote the scene where Major Briggs tells Bobby about his dream, and Cooper's monologue after he gets shot, that aspect of the show feels like it was very much in his wheelhouse.

And of course he wrote/directed the episode from S1 episode where the Bookhouse Boys go undercover in One-Eyed Jacks, which is one of the best ones IMO

Mr Trumpet

I think the well known fact that Lynch famously threw out Frost's script for (what was at the time) the show's finale in S2 and made up his own (brilliant) episode more or less on the spot has coloured audience perceptions of how the show was made, and who was responsible for the good bits and the less good bits.

I think the only part of Twin Peaks that's pure Lynch with no Frost involvement at all is Fire Walk With Me. And maybe the Log Lady intros.

mjwilson

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on February 08, 2022, 06:59:45 PMI think the well known fact that Lynch famously threw out Frost's script for (what was at the time) the show's finale in S2 and made up his own (brilliant) episode more or less on the spot has coloured audience perceptions of how the show was made, and who was responsible for the good bits and the less good bits.

I think the only part of Twin Peaks that's pure Lynch with no Frost involvement at all is Fire Walk With Me. And maybe the Log Lady intros.

FWWM is Lynch/Engels, so that would make the Log Lady intros the only pure Lynch.

Magnum Valentino

Did that really happen or is it a distortion of truth like the "season 2 is shit because Lynch left to make a film" misconception?

Only asking because it just doesn't seem like Lynch to so completely disregard his collaborator's work and the "on the spot" element of the story sounds a bit like playground exaggeration (wherein a story about an older brother getting into a fight becomes a story about an older brother roundhousing another boy's head off, if you take my meaning).

mjwilson

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on February 08, 2022, 07:30:42 PMDid that really happen or is it a distortion of truth like the "season 2 is shit because Lynch left to make a film" misconception?

Only asking because it just doesn't seem like Lynch to so completely disregard his collaborator's work and the "on the spot" element of the story sounds a bit like playground exaggeration (wherein a story about an older brother getting into a fight becomes a story about an older brother roundhousing another boy's head off, if you take my meaning).

I think it's probably pretty accurate, the original script is out there and the differences to what's on screen are massive.

(maybe not the "on the spot" part, I don't know about that)

mjwilson

From Brad Duke's Reflections: An Oral History of Twin Peaks:

Mark Frost: We knew it was going to be the last one, possibly for all time and I think I remember saying "Do whatever you want to do here; use this as a map, not a set of directions," and he did.

Harley Peyton: I think David just came in said went "Okay, fuck it, I'm just going to do it my way," and GOd knows he did.

Brenda E. Reed (Caroline Earle): David... was writing things as they came to him and was almost completely off script... I'm sure he had the whole idea and story line in his head.

Carel Struckyen: It was really David Lynch at his most genius because I'm not sure - I'm just guessing - but there wasn't much of a script. It was all on the spot and no one knew that was going on from moment to moment.

And various other stories like that.

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on February 08, 2022, 07:30:42 PMDid that really happen or is it a distortion of truth like the "season 2 is shit because Lynch left to make a film" misconception?

Only asking because it just doesn't seem like Lynch to so completely disregard his collaborator's work and the "on the spot" element of the story sounds a bit like playground exaggeration (wherein a story about an older brother getting into a fight becomes a story about an older brother roundhousing another boy's head off, if you take my meaning).

It's easy to confirm based on the original Frost/Peyton/Engels script, the overall structure is mostly the same but about 70% of dialogue was cut.

http://www.lynchnet.com/tp/tp29.html

The improvised stuff all happened during the Red Room sequences, which were originally supposed to have some kind of warped 50s nightmare stuff going with Bob as an evil dentist(not joking).

Magnum Valentino

What IS the craic with the Bob ball resolution?

It seems almost dismissive of the idea that the audience would be invested in seeing it tidied up.

Freddie's big green fist and origin story as told to James a few episodes previous really seem like the comment on superhero comics that I sometimes see levelled at them, but...why? Why make a point about that?

Noodle Lizard

It's an interesting debate, since there doesn't seem to be much in the way of clear-cut answers.

As much as people may undervalue Frost, I've also seen a lot of people undervalue Lynch as well. Some have argued that Frost made Twin Peaks (The Return especially) "coherent", as if Lynch left to his own devices would've just made an 18-hour Inland Empire instead. There's this notion that Lynch is so crazy and out there and has no regard for convention or narrative structure, which is obviously absurd. Most of Lynch's work is very conventionally structured, it just tends to obscure its support beams a lot more than your average film, and he's clearly comfortable with the idea of some people not knowing what's going on (this is where the Lynch/TP imitators often lose their nerve).

Rewatching The Return now, I feel it shares more DNA with Fire Walk With Me than the original TV run, but I imagine that's more because both FWWM and The Return had more or less free reign compared with a primetime ABC show. So I'm no closer to discerning what's Frost and what's not.

Mr Trumpet

The germ of the third series was, I believe, the image of Dale Cooper reappearing in abandoned tract housing in the Nevada desert. And that was conceived by Mark Frost. Everything else flowed from there.