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March 28, 2024, 10:02:18 PM

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Rewatching Sherlock (Gatiss Moffat versione)

Started by kalowski, April 23, 2022, 10:30:16 PM

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kalowski

We've just finished all four series of the Sherlock reboot.
I watched it with my children. My daughter especially enjoys crime and mystery stories so I thought she'd enjoy this but I wasn't expecting them to be hooked. So my children, 11 and 12, absolutely loved it.
The rewatch made me realise just how much fun it was at first. Those early episodes are great fun, but are also quite ludicrous, much more than I remembered. Although the show relies too much on Sherlock's deduction when he meets someone (something used much more sparingly in the books) it is funny and it is exciting, with some really nice twists. And I can't explain just how hooked my kids were. I think we've watched four episodes this week.
So, overall, I think it's great. It's the last two episodes... The Savile like character Toby Jones plays in S4E3 is excellent, but there felt like a lot of filler in the first twenty minutes and too much of Mary's "ghost". And the final episode was worse than I recalled and was just a mess. Introducing the criminal mastermind if the sister was clumsy but her getting control if the prison and setting the challenges was a fucking abomination.
But still, the kids loved it, and i think that's because they weren't too fussed about the daft plot but enjoyed moment after moment of Sherlock, Watson and Mycroft.
They're genuinely upset we've finished it. I may start of the Brett series with them, and did get one of the books for my daughter, but would like here to discuss Cumberbatch and Freeman et al.

Dex Sawash


I liked it. That is the full depth of my analysis.

Mister Six

Haven't seen them since broadcast, but my recollection is that the first and last episodes of seasons one and two are cracking, and the middle ones are... middling (and one of them quite racist). Fun, energetic, charming romps that are primarily OTT mysteries with a bit of character stuff. Sherlock's a wanker, but all the characters seem to recognise it, and him actually starting to give a shit about people is a nice bit of development.

Then some time in the big gap between series 2 and 3, Gatiss and Moffat got high on their own farts, mainlined internet fan comments and started writing a show that was primarily about itself, and occasionally deigned to have a bit of a mystery somewhere on the edges. Meanwhile, everyone in-universe has started treating Sherlock like he's a wonderful man, the best of us all, even though he's an emotionally manipulative cunt.

Didn't bother past the end of S3, so I think I missed the back-in-time gimmick episode and whatever happened with Sherlock's sister. Not really arsed though.

Pink Gregory

I've been watching the Brett series.

Don't usually have a lot of time for Cumberbatch, but he definitely took a lot of inspiration from Brett's Holmes, and it's very much to the benefit of the show, so maybe that could be your way in; they'd get on a lot better with the dashing Burke Watson than the more considered, twinkly-eyed Hardwicke Watson at first, so fortunate that it's round that way.

In my experience they do peter out a bit by the last two series, though.  Also there's something about how the dialogue was recorded that makes it a bit hard to follow in places.


Inspector Norse

Quote from: Mister Six on April 23, 2022, 11:13:45 PMHaven't seen them since broadcast, but my recollection is that the first and last episodes of seasons one and two are cracking, and the middle ones are... middling (and one of them quite racist). Fun, energetic, charming romps that are primarily OTT mysteries with a bit of character stuff. Sherlock's a wanker, but all the characters seem to recognise it, and him actually starting to give a shit about people is a nice bit of development.

Then some time in the big gap between series 2 and 3, Gatiss and Moffat got high on their own farts, mainlined internet fan comments and started writing a show that was primarily about itself, and occasionally deigned to have a bit of a mystery somewhere on the edges. Meanwhile, everyone in-universe has started treating Sherlock like he's a wonderful man, the best of us all, even though he's an emotionally manipulative cunt.

Didn't bother past the end of S3, so I think I missed the back-in-time gimmick episode and whatever happened with Sherlock's sister. Not really arsed though.

This is exactly how I remember it, except that I did stick with it to the end and it was a load of toss.

Basically the mystery-of-the-week and early Moriarty stuff was great, the stuff where they stopped solving crimes and started getting meta and turned Watson's wife into fucking 008 and all the deus ex Sherlock's family stuff was crap.

Lord Mandrake

I agree with the Sleaford Mods lyric;

"Like fake London genius
Pretty shit, first season was alright but that's about it"

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Andrew Scott's Moriarty is one of the most annoying performances I've ever seen. Unfair, maybe, but I wish never to see him act again.

That aside, I remember enjoying it for the most part. The one with the evil news magnate was pretty rubbish though - first he turns out to have no evidence for all his blackmail, then Holmes just murders him and immediately gets out of it with a deus ex machina.

elliszeroed

I remember being properly creeped out, fucked up over the one with Tony Jones in. I think it was just the use of those plastic gas-masks.

kitsofan34

I found it highly engaging up until the second series finale and found the aformentioned finale itself (rather embarassingly looking back) to be an astounding piece of work. I was young, okay? Young...younger, at least.
The cliffhanger of how Sherlock faked his death seemed to shoot the show into the stratosphere, with the third series' opener one of the most indulgent, masturbatory things I've possibly ever watched. There's even a heavy handed meta joke about the tumblr fanfic of Holmes & Watson in it. My memory is foggy so correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I don't think they ever did reveal how Sherlock did in fact fake his death.

mjwilson

Quote from: kitsofan34 on April 24, 2022, 06:38:55 PMI found it highly engaging up until the second series finale and found the aformentioned finale itself (rather embarassingly looking back) to be an astounding piece of work. I was young, okay? Young...younger, at least.
The cliffhanger of how Sherlock faked his death seemed to shoot the show into the stratosphere, with the third series' opener one of the most indulgent, masturbatory things I've possibly ever watched. There's even a heavy handed meta joke about the tumblr fanfic of Holmes & Watson in it. My memory is foggy so correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I don't think they ever did reveal how Sherlock did in fact fake his death.

One of the explanations given within the episode matches up with what many people had assumed to have happened, so I think people generally take that to be the answer. But you're right that there's no definitive statement.

kalowski

Quote from: kitsofan34 on April 24, 2022, 06:38:55 PMMy memory is foggy so correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I don't think they ever did reveal how Sherlock did in fact fake his death.
No they don't. They show a few theories and ideas. Actually on this second viewing the opening explanation of S3, which involves Derren Brown was very funny, as it felt like a real "up yours" to anyone talking about the show getting a bit too big for its boots. You could imagine loads of people yelling at the TV: "Oh my god, so Sherlock got Derren Brown involved, did he! This show is so far up it's arse it should be - oh. It's that guy's crazy theory. Oh... And they taking the piss out if it."

Natnar

That's was just smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact that Moffat couldn't come up with a decent solution to Sherlock surviving the fall.

The first series of Sherlock was ok but then it got sucked up into it's own smug arse.

jobotic

Did you watch it on i-player or in your mind palace?

Thomas

As seems to be the prevailing opinion, I really liked series 1 and 2 - there's some magnificent stuff in there. The major villain just flippantly blowing his brains out is a fantastic moment. It was a really, really good modern adaptation.

There are many reasons to criticise the third and fourth series, but another is that, by the end, the universe of the show seems to embrace this whole NLP thing. Psychological trigger words, mindwiping hypnotism, hidden memories revealed with a password, all that pseudoscientific Derren-Brown-shtick bollocks. The very frame of the show slipped out of believability, and into the wildest wet dreams of MKUltra researchers.

+ secret evil sibling with superpowers = narrative poison.


kalowski

We all laughed at this. I think Martin Freeman's face was done by the same people who worked on the Kerry Godliman shot on After Life.

purlieu

Chalk me up for another two enjoyed it when it was Modern Sherlock Holmes and considerably less so when it was A Show About The Modern Sherlock Holmes Show. The third and fourth series still had some fun moments, but I have no desire to rewatch them. The first two I first saw on DVD and literally binged in a day.

sevendaughters

the hbomber fella did a very long video on why it is all absolutely shite with liberal use of the 'mind palace' shuffling words and concepts in midair like a karate master image as a cornerstone of the argument.

the first two series had some good bits. all of it after, especially if it had Freeman's badwife in it, stink royally.

Ant Farm Keyboard

Just before S3 started to air, they released an online short called "Many Happy Returns", in which the forensic guy would come up evidence of weird events taking place all over the world, which could only be attributed to Sherlock being alive and active there. No speculation about how he would have survived the fall, though.

kitsofan34

I'd forgotten about the character of Anderson in the third series' opening episode, a audience stand in that Moffat and Gattis mock for his ker-aaaaazy theories on how Sherlock faked his death.

Quote from: kalowski on April 23, 2022, 10:30:16 PMThey're genuinely upset we've finished it. I may start of the Brett series with them, and did get one of the books for my daughter, but would like here to discuss Cumberbatch and Freeman et al.


As an aside, the two Guy Ritchie films are great fun, I'd have loved them when I was a kid. Robert Downey Jr and Jude Law have really good chemistry and there's a lot of fun action scenes.

QuoteAnd the final episode was worse than I recalled and was just a mess. Introducing the criminal mastermind if the sister was clumsy but her getting control of the prison and setting the challenges was a fucking abomination.

When I watched that episode, I think my words were "This is from The Sea Devils".

Quote from: Evian Mousemat on April 25, 2022, 11:58:44 AMAs an aside, the two Guy Ritchie films are great fun, I'd have loved them when I was a kid. Robert Downey Jr and Jude Law have really good chemistry and there's a lot of fun action scenes.

I watched the second and there's a scene with the line "Now, do you need me to elaborate, or can we just crack on?", and the movie really ups a gear around there.

notjosh

I loved the first Ritchie film, but the second has quit a lot of laboured humour and long boring action sequences in pointless slow-motion. It's totally saved by Jared Harris' Moriarty though - particularly the final confrontation.

Mr Trumpet

When I briefly volunteered at the National Maritime Museum I spent a day watching them convert part of the building's exterior into a set (a docklands alleyway used briefly for a fight/chase scene at the beginning of the 2nd film). It was really interesting, they had a proper sign painter making up Victorian trade billboards and everything. Didn't see the actors but I saw Ritchie going over some fight moves with what I presume were stuntmen.

grainger

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on April 25, 2022, 03:49:20 PMI saw Ritchie going over some fight moves with what I presume were stuntmen.

I think they just had a disagreement on set.

daf


Quote from: A Hat Like That on April 25, 2022, 01:01:04 PMI watched the second and there's a scene with the line "Now, do you need me to elaborate, or can we just crack on?", and the movie really ups a gear around there.

Yeah it's good stuff. Robert Downey Jr and Jude Law really nail the 'Holmes being a prick to a begrudging Watson' chemistry, whereas in Moffat's version their relationship gets a bit too reverential

Mister Six

Quote from: kitsofan34 on April 25, 2022, 10:14:21 AMI'd forgotten about the character of Anderson in the third series' opening episode, a audience stand in that Moffat and Gattis mock for his ker-aaaaazy theories on how Sherlock faked his death.

His character going crazy seemed like some author-imposed karmic punishment for having the temerity to question Sherlock in any way whatsoever. Part of that weird switch between 2 and 3 where Sherlock is suddenly treated as a god among men rather than an annoying prick who's good at solving mysteries.

Quote from: notjosh on April 25, 2022, 01:59:31 PMI loved the first Ritchie film, but the second has quit a lot of laboured humour and long boring action sequences in pointless slow-motion. It's totally saved by Jared Harris' Moriarty though - particularly the final confrontation.

The slow-mo annoyed me, too, until I realised that it's there to emphasise the horror and destructiveness of machine guns, this being a story told in the build-up to WWI. It's still naff, but there's s reason for it.

I didn't much like the film, though I can't really remember why. As I recall, killing off Irene Adler was unnecessary and mean-spirited, and it all seemed a bit ropey and caught up in being an adventure romp, rather than a detective movie with an actual mystery at its centre (which the first one had, and which I liked). I also liked that the first film was just some random mystery rather than crowbarring in Moriarty, so it might have annoyed me that he was in the sequel, although I'd completely forgotten he was in it at all until I read this post!

notjosh

Quote from: Mister Six on April 26, 2022, 04:46:22 AMI also liked that the first film was just some random mystery rather than crowbarring in Moriarty, so it might have annoyed me that he was in the sequel, although I'd completely forgotten he was in it at all until I read this post!

He's (crowbarred in) at the end of the first one as well!