Are BBC3 and BBC4 doomed?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Anyone seen this London Business School report on the BBC's digital channels? Put 'Patrick Barwise' into news sites and it'll come up.

The conclusion seems to be that BBC3 and BBC4 should stop making these pesky 'niche' programmes that nobody watches because it's a waste of money. Apart from Nighty Night and Little Britain, because they're successes.

Anyone worried about this, about the future of BBC4 in particular? I saw Jonathan Miller's series on atheism the other day and it was pure old-school BBC2, like a programme from another planet. That has to be worth saving.

And what does this mean for comedy? I haven't enjoyed any comedy shows on BBC3 (mainly because I see them as new-school BBC2 which happen to be on a digital channel first), but I've always held out hope that BBC4 might start doing decent comedy one day. Or at least having a go.

Patrick Barwise. You couldn't make up that name. With his pub opinions.

[Ambient Sheep]

Yeah saw this yesterday on the BBC's own website.  I'm absolutely horrified that we might lose BBC4, it's the best thing to hit my screen in years.  In fact it's the only thing that's dragged me back to watching telly again rather being glued to the internet.  Things like the Radiophonic Workshop and Minimalist Music documentaries, Art & The Sixties and so forth are wonderful.  As you say, its like BBC2 used to be 20 years ago before Birt, the money-men and Jane fucking Root ruined the whole goddamn thing.  If they axe BBC4, I stop watching telly again.

Is there an address we can write to to protest about this?

I had a supply teacher for French called Miss Barwise for two terms in my secondary school first year.  Nice arse, crap-ish teacher.

[Santa's Boyfriend]

I saw this on the 6 O Clock news yesterday, and they blatantly said that it was all the government's fault, for forcing them to put in news programmes on BBC3 and the like that they never wanted to put in anyway.

[benthalo]

I've feared a downturn in BBC4's programming for a while now, having seen one too many documentaries with a Kenneth Cranham-soundalike voiceover, dumb rubbish like Days That Shook The World (which was done far better thirty years ago) and the ever more formulaic Time Shift, which seems to increasingly opt for subjects which the programme makers know almost nothing about. I couldn't vouch for whether it was like this from day one, but at present I wouldn't call a lot of the programming 'niche' enough.

Opposite to this, it's the refuge home for great broadcasters in exile. Ray Gosling returned last week for the first time in many years with an hour long documentary and a special Archive Hour on Radio 4. Jonathan Meades made Abroad Again In Britain a few months ago which were automatically the best things transmitted this year and, as you say, we got Jonathan Miller's A Rough History of Disbelief (oddly changing the title on the day of tx?). New strands such as Originals are just jaw-dropping and is, the most talked about 'serious' music show around thanks to BBC2 screenings. I'm also singularly astonished that as part of the Graham Greene weekend they transmitted a complete video-camera recording of the author on stage at the NFT, with picture rolls, wobbly camera and a dreadful smuggled-into-the-projection-room vantage point throughout. Fucking great. Where else could you find it other than public access?

In terms of documentary, all the good stuff is on BBC4 these days. It's only crime is that it assumes specific interests in the viewer - two hours on Gram Parsons is bloody marvellous for anyone who knows who the hell he is, and it will doubtless be coherent to the most casual fan, but no one else will watch it. That in itself is fine and dandy, so long as terrestrial repeats are forthcoming. They're generally cheap programmes and worth preserving. They wouldn't dare threaten Radio 3 in the same way, when it does just as good a job.

but I've always held out hope that BBC4 might start doing decent comedy one day.

The Mark Steel series was outstanding, surely? Worthy of Meades. If they disposed with the sketch material and guests on Rich Hall's Fishing Show and just went for two-hander stillness, then that would be a significantly better show. QI is made with BBC4 money too. It's not all Surrealisimo.

I notice that BBC3 recently added an on-screen counter to their Sixty Seconds news. Which horrified me.

[12 years, 11 months old]

Surely this is more damaging for BBC3, as BBC4 can always justify its crap viewing figures be saying it's a highbrow channel, where as BBC3 is supposedly mainstream and as such is an obvious failure. I'd be happy to see BBC3 go I suppose. Also, it's a bit of a mystery to me why BBC4 doesn't get more viewers when, say, a debate on Radio 4 this morning about Chinese intellectual history gets millions of listeners.

It seems to me that any of the BBC3 comedy series could just as well have gone out on BBC2. As for BBC4's comedy output, there's been plenty of good stuff with a genuinely non-terrestrial feel, but mostly by known names like Mark Steel and Rich Hall, and of course the American imports. I'd really like to see the channel doing lower budget stuff with new comedians, not in the live at jongleurs mould but trying to find interesting people who are ready to make more risky experimental programmes, the likes of which could never find a terrestrial home (would like to have seen Simon Munnery on BBC4 10 years ago, or even now). This could well end up as being another Comedy Lab though, perhaps there just isn't the talent around? I can't believe that's true.

Another avenue BBC4 would do well to explore more is, I think, the filming of live shows direct from theatres, as they have done a few times with west end plays, and as they did with Demetri Martin's Perrier winning show last year. I was very disappointed with this year's Endinburgh coverage, I don't know why they couldn't have just stuck a camera in front of Jackson's way, or Stewart Lee or the Cambridge Footlights or whatever and broadcast it. This seems to me an obviously cheap and easy way of getting on our screens the sort of comedy which would never find room in the BBC2 schedules

[chand]

Yeah, I'd be worried about losing BBC4. I'm hoping to get a freeview box in my room so I don't have to wrestle with the rest of my family to watch stuff on BBC4. But BBC3 is largely pointless from what I know of it, all 'Sex, Warts And All Down Under' and stuff like 'Liquid Assets: J-Lo's Millions' which is the kind of crap you see TMF borrowing off MTV.

But if they lose BBC4 then I'm afraid I would have to join the tedious chorus of people saying the BBC has dumbed down.

How much of a danger is this though? I see some business type has suggested it, but the BBC is supposed to be a public service broadcaster, right? Catering for all tastes?

[mikeyg27]

TMF steal from from VH1 more. And it's owned by MTV, so it's not really stealing.

I preferred Curb on BBC4, for snobbish reasons. And that documentary they had on Tetris was anazing. I don't think it should go because I think it serves a distinct purpose, whereas I'm not sure BBC3 does. All I ever watched BBC3 for was to see 24 a week before my mates, and occasionally to watch Little Britain.

[Pinball]

I watch so little TV now, largely because it's all fashion/lifestyle/home renovation/soap opera shit. God knows what the TV controllers are thinking, presumably that we are all women. There are occasional good shows on of course, plus the news, but apart from that it seems to generally be dumbed down excrement.

And now, this report says that BBC3 & 4 should be more populist, so they can be more like mainstream channels! How worrying. I don't think they should "aspire" to the populist garbage...

The mistake the BBC made IMO is not having time-shifted/play again versions of BBC1 & 2. That would have been genuinely useful and got a large audience, and would have kick-started digital TV. I also preferred BBC4 when it was "BBC Knowledge", and education/business programmes would be cool, if only to see the 1970s OU programmes :-)  Clearly the commercial stations aren't going to do education programmes - not enough tits.

I agree completely with 12 years 11 months that the Edinburgh fringe and other cheap/free stuff has not been mined adequately. It should have been easy to fill up the channels, even if they - gasp - started 'em before 7pm!

Finally, a BBC Gold channel would be great, in addition to the UK Gold stuff already out there. The Beeb should just broadcast their entire archive. It's huge, it's free as it already exists, and frankly it's better than 99.9% of modern television, as already discussed. To pay for the archive retrieval/remastering process, the Beeb could release DVDs as they go along. I mean, ask yourself - why the Hell haven't the BBC broadcast the Goodies yet!?!?!

[butnut]

I mean, ask yourself - why the Hell haven't the BBC broadcast the Goodies yet!?!?!

Because they'll sell more DVDs if they never show the programmes? No, that doesn't really work, does it, because by showing the programme they'll hopefully get a wider audience and maybe increase DVD sales.

Anyway, I agree. BBC4 should be a bastion of intellectual television. Radio 4 has a large audience and hasn't dumbed down too much, generally, so neither its televisual counterpart.

[Pinball]

Another idea - why not simply broadcast radio programmes? Many of 'em have webcams now anyway, and I'd love to see Eddie Mair in full flow. Dry witted, tough questioning PM minx that he is :-)  Just stick a bloody camera in the studio.

And how about the Today Programme? Just think of all the high profile people they interview? Broadcast the footage for 3 hours every night - now that I'd fucking watch.

I mean, don't the BBC brainstorm these sort of ideas? A few posts in this thread is worth ten times the crap they've broadcast to date.

[bomb_dog]

It seems to me that any of the BBC3 comedy series could just as well have gone out on BBC2.

....as most have done, and new ones eventually will. The BBC are over-using the draw of series like Little Britain to tempt people into getting digital, ramping the 3pints channel's viewing figures with intent and therefore justifying its value and perceived level of success.

About a month after it finishes, or even the following week, they'll be re-running the hype again on BBC2 in the run up to flogging the S1 DVDs for Xmas. No way will they restrict populist stuff to a channel that gets, what, 3% audience share. Thats inherently a problem with putting mainstream-aimed stuff on a minority-receivable channel.

I gave up long ago thinking that Sky/Digital/Multi-channel telly gives us more choice, though I haven't really given BBC4 much chance to be honest.  Bad me.

Everything else of worth (and lots of stuff with none) will end up being shown for nowt on the main channels eventually, except Time Gentlemen Please, and that series that Harry Enfield did for Sky.

And 12 years, 11 months old's suggestion about broadcasting loads of stuff from Edinburgh is ideal. There's bound to be some gold in them thar recordings. Same goes for the summer festivals, there's tons on, enough to last weeks and months of various programmes.

[Mr Colossal]

I think BBC3 is alright, and BBC4 is brilliant. Though theres something about them that leaves them overlooked whenever im flicking channels.

I dont really watch the comedy on BBC3 that much, but I recently enjoyed a martial arts series called 'mind body and kick ass moves' and I dont mind watching 'So & So's millions' if its somebody im familair with.

Earlier i watched 'journeys from  the center of the earth' on BBC4 which explained how geology has long played a vital role in forging our beliefs / religious misenterpretations over the years. It was well made and informative, well worthy of being on channel 2. I have also sat down and watched whole documentaries on colloquial linguistics, and Tetris in the past.

There is a lot of stuff on BBC 3 that i dont give the chance because it looks a bit crap... I originally hoped it would repeat some of  BBC1/2's prime time stuff that i missed everytime I went out friday and saturday nights later in the week, though i suppose its good that it gives lesser known projects a chance. Even if they are shit, i would rather I had more  choice than nothing.

[The Duck Man]

I think BBC 3 and 4 should be scrapped.

With increasing pressure on the Beeb regarding the license fee and it's role as a public service broadcaster it can't really justify creating exclusive channels which it pumps public money into. And in BBC3 shows all the programmes it has produced for the public to an exclusive audience.

BBC3 is entirely worthless. Every single decent thing it produces goes onto terrestrial. All the rest is junk - a waste of money. BBC4 is a gem; a lot of the stuff created for it is amazing. A lot of the stuff on the supposed minority channel BBC2 is poor though, and could quite easily be replaced by things produced for BBC4. This would go some way to placate those terrestrial viewers who complain that the BBC doesn't create enough decent programming with their money.

And besides - it'll rid us of the constant plugging of them!

[Alberon]

I think it's far far too soon to decide the fate of BBC 3 and 4. It has to be remembered that in some ways they're like the very early BBC 2 which also back then couldn't be picked up by everyone and often needed the viewer to buy new equipment.

BBC 4 should be kept as it is. It was never intended to be a mass market channel nor should it be. It's there to do something different from commerical stations. The only problem is it should be on all day, like BBC Knowledge which it took over from. I often spent lazy sunday afternoons watching old Horizons on that.

BBC 3 has failed. It has an impossible remit in trying to attract the yoof audience. It either suceeds and gets condemned for being populist and taking audiences from commercial channels unfairly or it isn't widely watched and it's condemned again.

Personally i think BBC 3 should be become a repeats channel.

No, hear me out.

What it should do is repeat classic stuff from the BBC archive that doesn't get shown on the commercial repeat channels much. But it should also be the only place where new programmes on BBC 1 and 2 are repeated. BBC 1 and 2 should commit to never repeating a series and committing themselves to all-first-run series. Even omnibus of Eastenders should be on BBC 3. Though you can't do that until the analogue frequencies are shut off in six years or so.