How do you feel after watching Goodfellas?

[Virgo76]

I got the impression they were quite low level. Mafia foot soldiers rather than the (fictional) big boss heads of family we saw in The Godfather.
On the other hand, isn't the Lufthansa heist which the Goodfellas are involved in described as "the biggest in American history?" Is that true?
I wouldn't have thought the idea of being "made" would have meant anything to most people on first seeing the film. That's why Henry explains (crudely) what it means in the voiceover.

Spoiler alert

I don't know what Tommy's ceremony would have been like if it had gone normally.
Why did they even bother with all the 'pretending we're going to make him' charade? Why didn't they just shoot him anyway?
Hard to feel too sad for Tommy. But his poor mother! (sobs)

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[Menu]

It really does make you want to be a gangster doesn't it ?

It definitely felt like it was glamourising it when I saw it at 18. It was mesmerising, even the violence(especially the violence). Me and my mate though De Niro was the coolest cunt on the planet. But I think, on balance, Scorsese does portray them as people you shouldn't want to emulate. As I've got older, with each subsequent viewing, I've found them less likeable, less sympathetic, their lives more horrific, and the violence more repellent. That's real art isn't it? To be able to change your own reflection on it. I think to young men that kind of thing does looks attractive but as you age you realise just how many people these cunts will have destroyed. It reminds me of a film critic's opinion of Alan Ladd - "A small boy's idea of a tough guy".

[bgmnts]

I got the impression they were quite low level. Mafia foot soldiers rather than the (fictional) big boss heads of family we saw in The Godfather.
On the other hand, isn't the Lufthansa heist which the Goodfellas are involved in described as "the biggest in American history?" Is that true?
I wouldn't have thought the idea of being "made" would have meant anything to most people on first seeing the film. That's why Henry explains (crudely) what it means in the voiceover.

Spoiler alert

I don't know what Tommy's ceremony would have been like if it had gone normally.
Why did they even bother with all the 'pretending we're going to make him' charade? Why didn't they just shoot him anyway?
Hard to feel too sad for Tommy. But his poor mother! (sobs)

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That bit is made up for the film to be fair, the real Tommy was just murdered and never found, probably fed to Roy DeMeo or some other sick fuck, as the guy Tommy murdered was a close friend of John Gotti back in the day, and John and Roy were both in the Gambino family.

[Menu]

I got the impression they were quite low level. Mafia foot soldiers rather than the (fictional) big boss heads of family we saw in The Godfather.
On the other hand, isn't the Lufthansa heist which the Goodfellas are involved in described as "the biggest in American history?" Is that true?
I wouldn't have thought the idea of being "made" would have meant anything to most people on first seeing the film. That's why Henry explains (crudely) what it means in the voiceover.

Spoiler alert

I don't know what Tommy's ceremony would have been like if it had gone normally.
Why did they even bother with all the 'pretending we're going to make him' charade? Why didn't they just shoot him anyway?
Hard to feel too sad for Tommy. But his poor mother! (sobs)

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These are all good points which I have no answer to. As is the one about the Copacabana up thread. Yeah, were they smalltime or not?

I'm fucked if I'm going to read Hill's book or listen to his commentary though. Same with Jordan Belfont who inspired the Wolf of Wall Street. To think he's the hero is a big mistake. Scorsese certainly doesn't think so. But I suppose if you want to make a movie based on an autobiography of a living person they are usually going to be enriched whether you want them to or not, or whether that's the point of the film or not.

[bgmnts]

Ray Liotta said in an interview once that he bumped in to the real Henry Hill and it was not a pretty sight. And Michael Franzese (mafia scummer turned christian scummer so pinch of salt) portrays hill as a bit of a fucked up pathetic junkie really.

So yeah, these are NOT good people. But when you consider Henry's environment, unnoticed learning disability and socialisation process, he was always going to be fucked up so quite a tragic figure more than anything else.

[LordMorgan]

Ray Liotta said in an interview once that he bumped in to the real Henry Hill and it was not a pretty sight. And Michael Franzese (mafia scummer turned christian scummer so pinch of salt) portrays hill as a bit of a fucked up pathetic junkie really.

So yeah, these are NOT good people. But when you consider Henry's environment, unnoticed learning disability and socialisation process, he was always going to be fucked up so quite a tragic figure more than anything else.

You can get the "real goodfellas" docu on YouTube. Extensive interview with Henry Hill, Scorsese, the law enforcement who caught him, Hills brother. It's good, a strange watch as well, Hill it seems as the interview goes on, gets more boozy. Eventually by the end of the programme I think he's pretty drunk and he's even  goes fuck it and had taken out his false teeth. He cuts a rather pathetic figure.

[Virgo76]

These are all good points which I have no answer to. As is the one about the Copacabana up thread. Yeah, were they smalltime or not?

I'm fucked if I'm going to read Hill's book or listen to his commentary though. Same with Jordan Belfont who inspired the Wolf of Wall Street. To think he's the hero is a big mistake. Scorsese certainly doesn't think so. But I suppose if you want to make a movie based on an autobiography of a living person they are usually going to be enriched whether you want them to or not, or whether that's the point of the film or not.

The film isn't based on Hill's autobiography. It's based on the non-fiction book, Wiseguy by Nicholas Pileggi, which is, of course, based around the true stories of Hill and others.
Hill wrote his autobiography years after the film came out. I've not read it and am not planning to. I'd have no moral objection to doing so though. He obviously isn't a hero - I just suspect it might not be a good read. Hill is, of course, dead so wouldn't profit from me reading it anyway.
Two things I just noticed on Hill's Wikipedia page:
1. The Steve Martin film, My Blue Heaven is apparently also based on Hill's life. It's ok but not a classic (I saw it once over 30 years ago - it came out the same year as Goodfellas which I first saw in the mid-90s). It was written by the famous writer Nora Ephron who was married to Nicholas Pileggi, who as mentioned, wrote the book which Goosfellas is based on.
2. Hill's mugshot when he was arrested suggests Liotta wore the same clothes for those scenes in the film (not literally the dame clothes! I mean, modelled on). Hill looked nothing like Liotta at all though.

[LordMorgan]

The film isn't based on Hill's autobiography. It's based on the non-fiction book, Wiseguy by Nicholas Pileggi, which is, of course, based around the true stories of Hill and others.
Hill wrote his autobiography years after the film came out. I've not read it and am not planning to. I'd have no moral objection to doing so though. He obviously isn't a hero - I just suspect it might not be a good read. Hill is, of course, dead so wouldn't profit from me reading it anyway.
Two things I just noticed on Hill's Wikipedia page:
1. The Steve Martin film, My Blue Heaven is apparently also based on Hill's life. It's ok but not a classic (I saw it once over 30 years ago - it came out the same year as Goodfellas which I first saw in the mid-90s). It was written by the famous writer Nora Ephron who was married to Nicholas Pileggi, who as mentioned, wrote the book which Goosfellas is based on.
2. Hill's mugshot when he was arrested suggests Liotta wore the same clothes for those scenes in the film (not literally the dame clothes! I mean, modelled on). Hill looked nothing like Liotta at all though.

I've read the book, he really is an absolute scumbag. His life spiralled badly, he was kicked out of witness protection, to say his marriage to Karen was toxic would be being too kind.
He never really changed or learned. Always looking for a quick score.

He was also quite bitter about My Blue heaven because he never got paid. He said Pileggis wife was on the line listening in stealing everything he was telling pilleggi.
All in all, a rather unsavoury character. Nothing ever seemed to be his fault. He always felt cheated

[Virgo76]

I've read the book, he really is an absolute scumbag. His life spiralled badly, he was kicked out of witness protection, to say his marriage to Karen was toxic would be being too kind.
He never really changed or learned. Always looking for a quick score.

He was also quite bitter about My Blue heaven because he never got paid. He said Pileggis wife was on the line listening in stealing everything he was telling pilleggi.
All in all, a rather unsavoury character. Nothing ever seemed to be his fault. He always felt cheated

I'm sure this is all true. And yet Goodfellas is still a brilliant film which wouldn't exist without him.
I suppose Scorsese deserves the credit here really though (as well as Liotta, Bracco, Pesci etc) not Hill.
Giving Hill the credit for Goodfellas would be a bit like congratulating Ed Gein for inspiring Psycho.

[Virgo76]

That bit is made up for the film to be fair, the real Tommy was just murdered and never found, probably fed to Roy DeMeo or some other sick fuck, as the guy Tommy murdered was a close friend of John Gotti back in the day, and John and Roy were both in the Gambino family.

Yes. I think most of the Tommy stuff was fictional. I think there is a minor character called Tommy mentioned in the book but his character was greatly expanded for the film to accommodate Joe Pesci's superb career-best performance. Pesci was apparently inspired by memories of some of the rough characters he saw in his neighbourhood when he was growing up.

Spoiler alert

Nevertheless, even assuming that bit was fictional, I'd be intrigued to know why they chose to kill Tommy in that bizarre way i.e. inviting him to a bogus ceremony etc.

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[13 schoolyards]

Regarding Tommy's untimely demise, I assumed

Spoiler alert

he was such a hair trigger psycho all day every day that the mob figured this was the only way to get him to let his guard down enough to safely wack him. It's not like it required a lot of effort on their part, just a note saying "Dear Tommy, put on some fancy duds and show up at this garage at 10am - you're getting made!"

Plus it had the advantage of luring him to a location where said wacking wouldn't accidentally be seen or interrupted, plus getting the body out of sight afterwards would also be easy. Always thinking ahead, those Mafia goons

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But the real reason it happened that was was probably that Scorsese and co thought it made for good drama.

Spoiler alert

Everyone around Tommy got their hopes up thinking they were finally going to be part of the *real* mafia, then instead they lost their only chance to get accepted while being reminded that as far as the mob was concerned, they were just low level scumbags who'd die like anyone else if they stepped out of line

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[phantom_power]

Why are we spoilering a 30 year old film?

I think the ending is similar in concept to the ending of The Irishman, though in the latter it is more melancholic. You live a bit of the high life as a gangster but in the end what have you got to show for it. You are likely to get arrested, lose all your money, all your friends or get killed

[Sebastian Cobb]

he was kicked out of witness protection

How did he manage this?

[bgmnts]

How did he manage this?

Drug trafficking I think. One time he got married under his new identity whilst still married to his old wife.

Certainly a character.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Ah right, yeah that'll do it lol

[Phoenix Lazarus]

TBH (and I say this having studied Film at degree level, and with cinema being one of my great loves), I'm always fucking delighted when a film's ended. Any film. Especially a long one.

In theory, you could now get a film that's streamed online and doesn't end, with ongoing writing an improvisation, taking the principle of soap operas to the ultimate extreme.

[Virgo76]

Why are we spoilering a 30 year old film?

Somebody gave me grief for revealing a minor spoiler in Brief Encounter recently.

[JamesTC]

Someone was once furious at me for revealing how The Brittas Empire ended.

[kngen]

But the real reason it happened that was was probably that Scorsese and co thought it made for good drama.

which came back to bite them on the arse a bit, as

Spoiler alert

that's exactly how Anthony Spilotro (who Joe Pesci played as Nicky Santoro in Casino) and his brother died. But they had to fabricate another ending for them as you can't keep having Pesci rocking up to a mob boss's house thinking he's going to be made, and then getting killed, in every film you make, as amusing as that sounds.

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[rack and peanut]

Would make Home Alone a very different film