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Sniper Elite 5, stealth games, and 7/10s

Started by Pink Gregory, June 15, 2022, 05:28:27 PM

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Pink Gregory

So


Sniper Elite 4 was a game that I played on a whim - a friend gifted me his old base Xbox One when he somehow obtained a Series X, and suddenly my game playing life was altered by Game Pass.  I'd played a demo of SE3 and was tickled by the clever-seeming, tight-feeling play: sort of like a budget MGS5 with a neat long range shooting and spotting mechanic, so it was enough to give SE4 a look.

Now I never finished it, but I had simply lovely time.  The maps are the real standout; surprisingly massive and spectacularly realised, often with huge, imposing architecture flanked by verdant and varied greenery, hidden paths and winding back roads everywhere.  Loads of places to slot a Nazi bastard in thr brainpan from miles away and slink off while his mates fruitlessly storm your abandoned nest.

Not quite enough to sustain itself for the whole game though.  It feels oddly unsatisfying in what is largely a stealth game to finish a mission after penetrating 120 Nazi skulls in often the same fashion.  It gets real old, real quick, and SE4 can't really come up with any solution.  Maybe there are documents to find, maybe there are optional objectives, you certainly won't find anything that's any better than the guns and supplies that you've loaded in with, and even when you're running low, your standard soldier will likely be carrying bandages, medkits, scads of generic ammunition for anything you might be carrying, and even land mines.

Which brings me to SE5. 

It's the same, but most of the improvements Rebellion chooses to make are dead weight on a frame that already struggles to stand up straight.

The most perplexing is an expansion of non-lethal options - not only do you have the option of coshing a Nazi  on the gulliver rather than giving him an emergency tracheotomy, but there are even wooden bullets for every gun (including the eponymous sniper rifle) for knockouts from the other side of the village.

But...why? 

Because you get some more XP.

What do I do with XP?

Well in previous games you would need to level up in order to unlock new guns and items for your loadout; however in SE5 unlocks are tied to specific objectives - usually finding a workbench in a map.

So what do I do with XP?

Well, you can unlock some fairly rudimentary perks, half of which aren't even in effect on higher difficulties because they concern abilities that are locked off.  Also if you don't rush and explore the maps you'll basically have them all by the third mission.

Great.


I'm encouraged to recall other stealth/combat games and how they utilised meaningful non lethal options.  In the Metal Gear Solid series, it's often risky; knocked out guards will wake up fairly quickly, and the more permanent 'hold up' option in MGSV means isolating individuals so that you don't get interrupted.  Why do it?  Mission rankings.  It feels good to get a good grade by the end.  Plus, in certain circumstances, guards won't raise the alarm if they find a comrade sparked out.  Similar with Hitman; slipping in and out with only the essential murder committed is in itself an engaging objective, that the game often rewards you for.

Or take Dishonored, in which lethal or non lethal choices will have effects on the player character's narrative, and increase or decrease the population of enemies in subsequent levels.  On top of that, abilities like shadow kill or summoning rats are available, in effect making killing less risky than a big sleepy cuddle or a sleep dart.  There's an actual, tangible reward to a trickier and more labourious nonlethal approach.


oggyraiding

It's been a long time since I played it so I may be misremembering, but Deus Ex Human Revolution was hyped for allowing many different possible ways of approaching a mission. You could be a sneaky bugger, or you could run in with a shotgun and augmentations. However in the game, you get bonus XP for being totally stealthy, and also for non-lethal take downs of enemies. You were effectively penalised for being loud and/or lethal, which goes against the Deus Ex philosophy of many different viable play styles.

Pink Gregory

So what would I suggest to improve SE5?

- The search doesn't get called off just because you can't find the shooter.

I find it really odd that the patrolling guards will just go back to their normal, calm state while there are bodies literally lying in their way.  MGSV does this well, if you can't prevent the alarm from sounding, the entire region will go on alert.

Taking a long shot should be a huge risk, with a high reward.  Isolate your targets, and take them out before they can mount a fight back against you.  Really make relocating important, once you take a shot, everyone should be down behind cover until you find a way to flush them out.

- footsteps shouldn't be suspicious

crouch walking everywhere is a pain, can only think of Karl's poor spine.  Surely these little groups of guards are aware of each other, and hearing footsteps is quite common as everyone is patrolling?

- hunting for supplies

this may end up being a pain, but why would regular soldiers be carrying landmines, or ammunition for guns they don't have?  Usually when I find supplies, I can't pick them up because I've been rinsing every soldier I've come across - why wouldn't you?.  Wouldn't it be much better to utilise hard to access areas of the map, to play a game of infiltration or sniping, to find your landmine or your explosives to put to use elsewhere?

- smarter enemies

the ai isn't bad in SE5 but it's fairly standard.  If Jerry hears a shot he'll come running and they do a fairly good job of flushing you out; but you can also stick a land mine the size of a watermelon down on some carpet and they'll merrily obliterate themselves while having a lovely stroll.  SE5 does expand your inventory to time delayed decoys (a nazi helmet on a broom handle, fucking love it) and nonlethal shoebox mines with noisy firecrackers on top, but they are really no more effective than a simple land mine.

Anyone got anything else?

Pink Gregory

Quote from: oggyraiding on June 15, 2022, 05:41:05 PMIt's been a long time since I played it so I may be misremembering, but Deus Ex Human Revolution was hyped for allowing many different possible ways of approaching a mission. You could be a sneaky bugger, or you could run in with a shotgun and augmentations. However in the game, you get bonus XP for being totally stealthy, and also for non-lethal take downs of enemies. You were effectively penalised for being loud and/or lethal, which goes against the Deus Ex philosophy of many different viable play styles.

I feel like a lot of newer and more expensive to develop games seem to be very transactional when it comes to player choice.  Play like X, get Y.  Not because it's inherently enjoyable to get one over on a load of bad lads with shooters without them seeing you, and to go ham with a shotgun when you get frustrated.

beanheadmcginty

A ridiculously high number of different kill animations and there's a trophy for collecting them all as if they were Pokemon. Some harder to get than others, obviously.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on June 15, 2022, 06:59:50 PMA ridiculously high number of different kill animations and there's a trophy for collecting them all as if they were Pokemon. Some harder to get than others, obviously.

ah, see, I don't like the x-ray stuff or the bullet cam, so I turn it all off.  I guess that's quite important.

beanheadmcginty

Quote from: Pink Gregory on June 15, 2022, 07:11:04 PMah, see, I don't like the x-ray stuff or the bullet cam, so I turn it all off.  I guess that's quite important.

Whoah, really? I genuinely thought that was the only reason anybody played these games. I always immediately get bored of them and stop playing once I've seen all the different kills.

Neomod

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on June 15, 2022, 06:59:50 PMA ridiculously high number of different kill animations and there's a trophy for collecting them all as if they were Pokemon. Some harder to get than others, obviously.

Done it mate.


beanheadmcginty

Quote from: Neomod on June 15, 2022, 08:45:10 PMDone it mate.



Imagine if there were thousands of these to get, with increasing levels of absurdity.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on June 15, 2022, 08:33:22 PMWhoah, really? I genuinely thought that was the only reason anybody played these games. I always immediately get bored of them and stop playing once I've seen all the different kills.

It's a bit rich that I turn it off in the shooting nazis game about shooting nazis, but that stuff makes me queasy.  Landing a shot over 300 metres and calculating the wind and the bullet drop is still thrilling. 

That being said they've really scaled back the wind since SE4, it's just been in  'tiny nudge to the left' territory.  Which makes sniping far less frustrating but also less rewarding (I have the assists off)

The Crumb

Quote from: oggyraiding on June 15, 2022, 05:41:05 PMIt's been a long time since I played it so I may be misremembering, but Deus Ex Human Revolution was hyped for allowing many different possible ways of approaching a mission. You could be a sneaky bugger, or you could run in with a shotgun and augmentations. However in the game, you get bonus XP for being totally stealthy, and also for non-lethal take downs of enemies. You were effectively penalised for being loud and/or lethal, which goes against the Deus Ex philosophy of many different viable play styles.

You got less XP for going lethal, but not enough to make in a non-viable way to play. It's also balanced out by some of the weapon mods for lethal weapons being really powerful, especially the explosive revolver rounds.

In the original Deus Ex, there's at least one occasion where you get reprimanded and denied items for killing too many people, so it's always been a part of the series to nudge people towards the less violent route.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Pink Gregory on June 15, 2022, 05:28:27 PMOr take Dishonored, in which lethal or non lethal choices will have effects on the player character's narrative, and increase or decrease the population of enemies in subsequent levels.  On top of that, abilities like shadow kill or summoning rats are available, in effect making killing less risky than a big sleepy cuddle or a sleep dart.  There's an actual, tangible reward to a trickier and more labourious nonlethal approach.
That's what I'm doing at the minute, and it's taking me a little while to get used to how the guards see you, but it's a lot of fun. At the beginning, there's something like "the fewer people you kill, the less plague there'll be", which is the thing I was going for. One thug, though, set himself on fire just as I shot a sleep dart at him, so I'm wondering by the end of the level if I'm going to get the "no deaths" tick.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 12, 2022, 02:00:57 PMThat's what I'm doing at the minute, and it's taking me a little while to get used to how the guards see you, but it's a lot of fun. At the beginning, there's something like "the fewer people you kill, the less plague there'll be", which is the thing I was going for. One thug, though, set himself on fire just as I shot a sleep dart at him, so I'm wondering by the end of the level if I'm going to get the "no deaths" tick.

one of the bigger problems with that is that roving packs of rats will eat unconscious bodies, so be careful where you put sleeping bodies

Mister Six

Quote from: oggyraiding on June 15, 2022, 05:41:05 PMIt's been a long time since I played it so I may be misremembering, but Deus Ex Human Revolution was hyped for allowing many different possible ways of approaching a mission. You could be a sneaky bugger, or you could run in with a shotgun and augmentations. However in the game, you get bonus XP for being totally stealthy, and also for non-lethal take downs of enemies. You were effectively penalised for being loud and/or lethal, which goes against the Deus Ex philosophy of many different viable play styles.

That goes back to the original, though, with you allies chewing you out for choosing lethal over non-lethal/stealth approaches. I do wish games were neutral on this stuff though. Like in RPGs where passing a speech check to avoid a fight will net you a fraction of the XP (and loot) you would have got from going gun-mental.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Mister Six on September 12, 2022, 02:05:01 PMThat goes back to the original, though, with you allies chewing you out for choosing lethal over non-lethal/stealth approaches. I do wish games were neutral on this stuff though. Like in RPGs where passing a speech check to avoid a fight will net you a fraction of the XP (and loot) you would have got from going gun-mental.

See, not a lot of people liked the skills system in Oblivion, which involved levelling up particular skills by doing the related activity rather than assigning points, but in your context I think it could work.

If you can talk your way past a fight, you might improve your speechcraft and negotiation, but you don't gain any combat or weaponry skills as a tradeoff.

Mister Six

So long as the XP is commensurate with the activity - and a dialogue-based playthrough is actually fun. The problem is that action constitutes the backbone of most games, even ones like Fallout 2 and New Vegas, that give a lot of dialogue stuff on the side, so it's hard to not to forego actual role playing in favour of just racking up the XP and having fun.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Pink Gregory on September 12, 2022, 02:04:07 PMone of the bigger problems with that is that roving packs of rats will eat unconscious bodies, so be careful where you put sleeping bodies
The cheeky buggers, I'll have to remember that. I'm really close to the beginning (I assume), doing Granny Whatshername's first mission, and there are two sleeping goons and one goon who was asleep for a few seconds before burning to death just laid in the street outside. It was a bit of a mess, if I'm being honest, I might do the entire mission again.

H-O-W-L

I played SE2 and SE3 to absolute buggery death and when SE4 came out I could not be fucked anymore.

Zombie Army Trilogy (the first one) is one of the best horror games of all time though. The visuals of that game are fucking phenomenal and I've never seen anything so effortlessly and correctly emulate 80s b-movies so well despite a lot of games trying.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: H-O-W-L on September 12, 2022, 05:52:52 PMI played SE2 and SE3 to absolute buggery death and when SE4 came out I could not be fucked anymore.

Zombie Army Trilogy (the first one) is one of the best horror games of all time though. The visuals of that game are fucking phenomenal and I've never seen anything so effortlessly and correctly emulate 80s b-movies so well despite a lot of games trying.

Is Zombie Army 4 a bit of a step down?  Only as far as I'm aware that's on game pass

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Pink Gregory on September 12, 2022, 06:13:02 PMIs Zombie Army 4 a bit of a step down?  Only as far as I'm aware that's on game pass

I've not played it but they microtransactioned it to fuck so I refuse to touch it frankly. ZAT is a complete game. You can get a code for pretty cheap though. GamersGate, as listed there, is legit.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: H-O-W-L on September 12, 2022, 06:13:57 PMI've not played it but they microtransactioned it to fuck so I refuse to touch it frankly. ZAT is a complete game. You can get a code for pretty cheap though. GamersGate, as listed there, is legit.

Might just, friend and me were huge CoD WaW Nazi Zombies heads so anything to fill that hole would be ace.

samadriel

Quote from: Mister Six on September 12, 2022, 02:05:01 PMThat goes back to the original, though, with you allies chewing you out for choosing lethal over non-lethal/stealth approaches. I do wish games were neutral on this stuff though. Like in RPGs where passing a speech check to avoid a fight will net you a fraction of the XP (and loot) you would have got from going gun-mental.

Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines solved the problem simply by giving you a set amount of XP at the end of a mission,  no matter how you played it. If you're a stealth nut like me, the real reward is being able to get through a level unnoticed, plus in the DX model, there's the problem of not getting any points unless you KO bad guys, when really you should also be rewarded for being able to sneak around behind someone's back and leaving them conscious.

H-O-W-L

What I do whenever I play DX:HR is I knock out every one of them then I shoot them in the fucking head with a silenced gun, because they can't dock you points after giving you them.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: H-O-W-L on September 13, 2022, 11:20:54 PMWhat I do whenever I play DX:HR is I knock out every one of them then I shoot them in the fucking head with a silenced gun, because they can't dock you points after giving you them.
I like the "no alarms, no deaths" achievements (which is why I have to be careful not to get the punching through walls ability, because you stand half a chance of accidentally throttling some goon stood the other side).

Jerzy Bondov

I got most of the way through Human Revolution without killing anybody, but then near the end there was a bit with loads of nutters trying to get me and I just thought sod this and I killed every last one of them.

Mister Six

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on September 14, 2022, 09:26:59 PMI got most of the way through Human Revolution without killing anybody, but then near the end there was a bit with loads of nutters trying to get me and I just thought sod this and I killed every last one of them.

That was me too, except it was the bit where you're in the pod hotel place and a bunch of mercs turn up and start massacring civilians. I just thought, nah - fuck 'em.

H-O-W-L

It's funny because Deus Ex 1 ( the original, which is great if you haven't played it, even if it's janky as all fuck ) actually did give you plenty of ideological reasons for sparing people, but pretty much every villain faction you encounter in DXHR is some kind of baby-stabbing bastard faction that bites the head off a virgin when you first encounter them. It's very odd, because DX1 doesn't moralize at you for killing, either, it just has a couple characters who are like "Man that was fucked up of you to murder a bunch of people, you're a cop" meanwhile DXHR rambles at you about how wrong murder is. It's so weirdly tonally offbase.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: H-O-W-L on September 15, 2022, 05:41:28 AMIt's funny because Deus Ex 1 ( the original, which is great if you haven't played it, even if it's janky as all fuck ) actually did give you plenty of ideological reasons for sparing people, but pretty much every villain faction you encounter in DXHR is some kind of baby-stabbing bastard faction that bites the head off a virgin when you first encounter them. It's very odd, because DX1 doesn't moralize at you for killing, either, it just has a couple characters who are like "Man that was fucked up of you to murder a bunch of people, you're a cop" meanwhile DXHR rambles at you about how wrong murder is. It's so weirdly tonally offbase.
I never really got into the moral ramifications of slaughtering vs not slaughtering in DX:HR, but I just liked the challenge of doing it without being spotted or killing anyone, like you weren't ever there (apart from the cut scenes and boss fights in HR, I suppose).

The thing I'm quite admiring about Dishonored at the mo, still very early on, is how it's almost impossible to sneak to the spot where you poison the elixir that the local thugs are making. It's like they're saying "if you do this, innocent people will definitely die, so you might as well kill the guards too".

Famous Mortimer

Dammit, I killed my first person in Dishonored, and that was just because I had to turn a trap to hurting enemies rather than me, to get through a tricky bit. But on the plus side, I got my first no alarms, no unconscious bodies discovered score.


Famous Mortimer

Looking for a cheap copy of the DLC, I find that you can buy the definitive edition of Dishonored and the normal edition of Dishonored 2 from CDKeys for under a tenner (1 is 3 quid, 2 is a fiver). Do it, I say!