These Insurrection Jan 6th Capitol Hearings

[Mobius]

Is anyone following these? Guardian have been providing updates daily.

Some of it is quite mad. This bit today gave me a chuckle.

Trump wanted to go to the Capitol with his supporters on January 6, so much so that he tried to redirect his car when aides told him they would be returning to the White House. Hutchinson said Tony Ornato, the White House deputy chief of staff, told her that Trump was "irate" when he was informed he would not be going to the Capitol. Already inside a car with his aides, Trump tried to grab for the vehicle's steering wheel and then lunged at the throat of a Secret Service agent, Hutchinson said.

They're also saying there is witness tampering, Trump's team have been basically threatening people not to talk.

I'm not sure what power the Hearing has though, presumably they just present their findings and then the law decide whether to follow up?

[Ferris]

Complete waste of time, we all know he's a ludicrous two-bit crook (and the people who think he's great are too dug in to change their minds). We also all know that this will end up with a "stern rebuke" type punishment (aka nothing) rendering the entire multi-month multi-million dollar investigation absolutely pointless.

Meanwhile as congress is focusing on this utter side-show, actual rights of actual people are being erased and inflation is going through the roof, all while the federal government spends the most it ever has on the military, schools rot, rainforests burn, and people go hungry and homeless.

Nobody gives a fuck about this, and it's self-defeating centrist political manoeuvring to suggest otherwise. It's like parliament spending 8 months investigating and debating which kardashian is the worst - they're all millionaires, who fucking cares? The country is on fire.




...sorry. I don't mean to rant, but it's such a waste of mental and financial resources it slightly angers me.

Sorry again.

[Ferris]

To be clear - one of the main problems facing western legislatures is the incredibly limited amount of time they have to accomplish anything. The amount of admin and effort and time that goes into legislation is mad when you see it up close.

Canada's parliament spent almost 6 months mucking about with committees and nearly didn't pass the budget (even as the feds had already started spending it).

Any time not spent tackling actual problems is a huge missed opportunity. Spending all those resources on this makes no sense to me. I know I know, you can't let people get away with it (and hey it scores political points which is why it's gone ahead), but I'd guess Joe bloggs totally switches off when you say the words "congressional panel of investigation" and you'd score far more points by issuing rounds of stimulus cheques or forcing GOP senators to vote on popular legislation and out them as openly anti working-man.

[Ferris]

...sorry again. I'm sure other people disagree, and they probably have more to contribute. I'm just in a bad mood. Ignore me.

[bgmnts]

Nah you're spot on.

Sorry :(

[Martin Van Buren Stan]

...sorry again. I'm sure other people disagree, and they probably have more to contribute. I'm just in a bad mood. Ignore me.

Well it shouldn't matter if trump is punished, why shouldn't the investigation happen for the sake of history / posterity?

[The Ombudsman]

The lady giving testimony earlier on today seemed to provide damning evidence against Trump. The fact Trump tried to physically change the direction of the car so he could go to the capitol is insane. I was cooking at the time but I'm certain that's what I heard.

[checkoutgirl]

Complete waste of time, we all know he's a ludicrous two-bit crook

1. I think you underestimate the amount of people who either haven't a clue what happened on 6 Jan or know fuck all about it. Many of which will know about it now and be shocked. Swing voters who voted for the satsuma and might have again, but won't now.

2. They're not doing anything to help the poor, middle class and protect the environment etc anyway, and stopping these hearings wouldn't change that. So doing this is at least something positive, and for the record.

So yeah, have a rant but I think your points are faulty on their own terms anyway.

[Huxleys Babkins]

"I don't even wait... Just grab 'em by the steering wheel."

[Video Game Fan 2000]

The detail about him trying to grab the wheel then the clavicals of the driver, and the fact he was probably directly behind in the passenger seat, makes it sound like he put his arms straight out and didn't bend them, like he suddenly went all Frankenstein in rage

I was imagining him next to the guy and grabbing the wheel, something intimidating and easy to picture, but no he went NRGGRRRR IM PRESIDENT and stuck his arms and legs out like a He Man figure

[a peepee tipi]

1. I think you underestimate the amount of people who either haven't a clue what happened on 6 Jan or know fuck all about it. Many of which will know about it now and be shocked. Swing voters who voted for the satsuma and might have again, but won't now.

2. They're not doing anything to help the poor, middle class and protect the environment etc anyway, and stopping these hearings wouldn't change that. So doing this is at least something positive, and for the record.

So yeah, have a rant but I think your points are faulty on their own terms anyway.

Nah, Ferris is right. First point is fantasy, second point is submission

[Mobius]

Complete waste of time

Fair enough Barry please delete thread

[Bernice]

Biden to give him a presidential pardon in a display of bi-partisan good faith.

[Pdine]

Complete waste of time, we all know he's a ludicrous two-bit crook (and the people who think he's great are too dug in to change their minds). We also all know that this will end up with a "stern rebuke" type punishment (aka nothing) rendering the entire multi-month multi-million dollar investigation absolutely pointless.

Meanwhile as congress is focusing on this utter side-show, actual rights of actual people are being erased and inflation is going through the roof, all while the federal government spends the most it ever has on the military, schools rot, rainforests burn, and people go hungry and homeless.

Nobody gives a fuck about this, and it's self-defeating centrist political manoeuvring to suggest otherwise. It's like parliament spending 8 months investigating and debating which kardashian is the worst - they're all millionaires, who fucking cares? The country is on fire.




...sorry. I don't mean to rant, but it's such a waste of mental and financial resources it slightly angers me.

Sorry again.

I sympathise with the general frustration but otherwise I couldn't really disagree with this more. The concerns you (rightly) point to need actually accountable, effective, durable power structures to attack. Trump's Presidency (and its precursors like Berlusconi's) highlighted bugs in the current processes of modern democracies, unchecked variables that we previously assumed would always remain in bounds.

We never anticipated that post-WWII democracies could fall pray to the kind of counter-factual hate rhetoric that got Hitler and Mussolini elected. Laws to preserve the freedom of the press were supposed to balance politicians' tendency to lie to get elected: you could lie but you'd be exposed in the public sphere, and that would undermine your support. We didn't anticipate that the public sphere would pop and become a thousand separate bubbles, each with a refracted view of reality. We should have anticipated it: when you deify the market, a human's chief role in the power structure becomes their choice of purchase not their choice of leader. People tired of a political landscape that reflected reality because reality is univocal and often dull, unlike the market which is constantly adapting to the boredom of its participants. People learned to change the channel or flip tabs if the message they were hearing conflicted with their desired world view, and politicians and those selling 'political' entertainment adapted fast.

We never anticipated that this fragmentation of public discourse would lead so rapidly to an almost complete failure of our theory of knowledge. Once you can pick your political reality like a soap opera, you can pick your epistemology that way too. People aren't stupid, on average, and they could see that things had changed. Why had they changed? Well for each skewed offshoot the foundation myth was the same:

"These days the Cunts are in control and that's why we had to make our own news channel/subreddit/compound. The Cunts are so powerful that they can insert themselves into what we used to naively think was the unproblematic production of truth. Data that conflicts with our assumptions has been falsified; look at how the FBI/CIA/MI5 behaved in the past. Look at how we invaded Iraq on a lie. If we can't trust the data, we just have to go with our gut about which things are falsified and which are not."

Now I don't think that this situation will be resolved easily. For a start there is a measure of truth in nearly all of the bubbles' founding myths. The state has always lied - on occasion - to manufacture consent. Money has always been a separate, private means of association that undermines our pluralist democratic aims. We have all lazily taken silence from those who disagree with us as assent.

However one thing I know will get us absolutely nowhere is ignoring the fragmentation. Heartfelt pleas for state to address this or that issue, while downplaying the necessity or possibility of making the state reflect the people's democratic will is a contradiction. It's worse than that, in fact, because it uses the importance of the issues against the possibility of doing anything about them. It's like saying: "we have no time to address police corruption because we need the police to fight crime"; it's a view that will solve neither problem, ultimately.

So I completely agree that the environment, education, healthcare (in the US), poverty, reproductive rights, all these are terrifically important, but because they are important, fixing the basic means by which we come together to do good is even more important.

I could see a counter argument which says: "OK, but none of these hearings will ever fix anything" but if that's the case (and I don't think it necessarily is) then it's pointless to waste time bitching about an unfixable institution. The money being spent here is to try to build a public consensus that (a) peaceful transition of power is a basic lever of democracy, that (b) it has been seriously damaged, and (c) that without it there is no democratic state to bitch about. 

[Ferris]

1. I think you underestimate the amount of people who either haven't a clue what happened on 6 Jan or know fuck all about it. Many of which will know about it now and be shocked. Swing voters who voted for the satsuma and might have again, but won't now.

2. They're not doing anything to help the poor, middle class and protect the environment etc anyway, and stopping these hearings wouldn't change that. So doing this is at least something positive, and for the record.

Point 2 is probably true but spending time on this doesn't make solutions any more likely. At best, it's counter productive and a waste of time.

With respect, point 1 is ludicrous. Do you really, really think someone in the US genuinely doesn't have an opinion on donald flippin trump of all people? And that these hearings will sway them? Ooh I didn't know much about him before but chuck Schumer reckons he's a wrong un so that's really changed my opinion.

Either they don't care enough to know what Jan 6 was (in which case a few more news stories and Nancy pelosi standing in front of congress saying everyone has been naughty won't get through), or they are part of the 99.9% of Americans who already have an opinion of trump that is so entrenched that nothing will change their mind.

I completely sympathize with the "holding to account" aspect, what else can congress do? Cunt sent a load of mad shamans to shit on the podium. It's an impossible situation really and the democrats are doing what they have to but that doesn't mean I like it or think it is particularly effective (because it isn't).

[Buelligan]

Completely agree.  I, along with most of the sane world, am just praying now that sweet Jesus smites him to death real soon.  Thoughts and prayers.


^{SHAMELESS CUNTS}

[Ferris]

@Pdine yes that's totally fair.

Like I say, it's an impossible situation and Congress is forced into this investigation because what else can they do: not investigate?

That said, I still don't think it makes a difference. For whom are they recording this stuff, because it won't change a single mind in the US. Even if trump was on camera saying "yes, I did a crime, I like doing crimes" he'd still be untouchable by US law enforcement (because they're so toothless against wealthy people, especially with this type of "High Crime" stuff) and he'd probably be exactly as competitive in a general election.

It feels like they want to pass a motion in congress to bar him specifically from running again (because democrats reckon he'll beat biden), in which case desantis runs as basically the exact same candidate with less baggage and the dems get marmalized. It's all so depressing and self defeating.

[Buelligan]

@PdineIt feels like they want to pass a motion in congress to bar him specifically from running again (because democrats reckon he'll beat biden), in which case desantis runs as basically the exact same candidate with less baggage and the dems get marmalized. It's all so depressing and self defeating.

Absobloodylutely.  I think America has killed itself.

Britain's busily following it.  It feels like the old world powers, becoming utterly debauched, are killing themselves rather than learning and growing.  A lesson there for us all.

[Pdine]

@Pdine yes that's totally fair.

Like I say, it's an impossible situation and Congress is forced into this investigation because what else can they do: not investigate?

That said, I still don't think it makes a difference. For whom are they recording this stuff, because it won't change a single mind in the US. Even if trump was on camera saying "yes, I did a crime, I like doing crimes" he'd still be untouchable by US law enforcement (because they're so toothless against wealthy people, especially with this type of "High Crime" stuff) and he'd probably be exactly as competitive in a general election.

It feels like they want to pass a motion in congress to bar him specifically from running again (because democrats reckon he'll beat biden), in which case desantis runs as basically the exact same candidate with less baggage and the dems get marmalized. It's all so depressing and self defeating.

The third section of the 14th Amendment would disqualify Trump from holding any public office automatically if he 'engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [US Constitution]'. These hearings won't in themselves convict Trump of that, but once enough evidence has been made publicly available, the risk to the GOP of adopting him as a candidate only to have that candidacy challenged in court on the basis of the 14th Amendment, and this all replayed again becomes too great. This is another reason why the hearings are important: putting the details of Trump's attempts to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power into the public record changes the calculus of risk associated with backing Trump for the GOP. It becomes less about winning voters over one by one, and more about triggering the avalanche of support away from Trump within the GOP that will happen once/if he stops being a net benefit to their electability.

Having said that, I do think that the hearings will likely change people's minds, in both directions. Some will be pushed beyond their ability to stomach Trump's self-centred idiocy, and I'm sure some will be outraged into supporting him more by what they see as a Star Chamber with no representation for the accused. Saying no-one will be affected seems unsupported and to some extent defeatist.

Finally I think that making this into a policy question ("DeSantis = Trump therefore who cares?") is missing the point. DeSantis might be equivalent to Trump on policy, but refusing to be voted out isn't policy, it's a rejection of the idea of policy. Unelected rulers don't need policy, because they don't need to share their thinking or convince anyone.

[Ferris]

I see your points and think they're valid (and I was referring to the 14th amendment, but with a congressional "we think this" declaration so they're able to trigger it).

We largely agree but I'm quibbling around the edges which nobody needs to read.

[Pdine]

I see your points and think they're valid (and I was referring to the 14th amendment, but with a congressional "we think this" declaration so they're able to trigger it).

We largely agree but I'm quibbling around the edges which nobody needs to read.

Thanks for replying :) I am sorry if I'm overly emphatic on this but I am worried  by the tendency of 'the good guys' to wrestle themselves to a standstill over the sheer number of different issues that need addressing and how hopeless it can all seem. Also, apart from anything else, I am actually really enjoying the hearings as television...

[checkoutgirl]

Do you really, really think someone in the US genuinely doesn't have an opinion on donald flippin trump of all people? And that these hearings will sway them?

I've seen bits and pieces on the internet etc where people say someone they know didn't realise how bad 6 Jan was until they saw this, have I gone and interviewed them myself to check? No. Aside from that the press, even Fox News are starting to turn on Trump and report stuff about the hearings, which is kind of amazing to me. You also have the justice department who are watching closely and have already demanded documents from the hearings and raided the home and phone of higher ups in Trump's administration.

I'm too cynical to think Trump will be arrested (mainly because Biden thinks he'll be next) but there's certainly some value in the hearings. If nothing else they at least have some entertainment value. Even if Trump never gets arrested it's heartening to know how annoyed and possibly worried he is about all this. As cynical as I am I don't want to be too cynical.

[Ferris]

Thanks for replying :) I am sorry if I'm overly emphatic on this but I am worried  by the tendency of 'the good guys' to wrestle themselves to a standstill over the sheer number of different issues that need addressing and how hopeless it can all seem. Also, apart from anything else, I am actually really enjoying the hearings as television...

No apology required!

[Pdine]

Aside from that the press, even Fox News are starting to turn on Trump and report stuff about the hearings, which is kind of amazing to me.

Yes it is really interesting to see their editorial policy shift as they calculate how to remain at the centre of the bubble they serve... Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and the other GOP who gave evidence too, betting on a post-Trump Republican Party that will embrace them as leaders. As I say: great TV especially with Succession Season 4 a good way off.

[checkoutgirl]

betting on a post-Trump Republican Party

They must be seeing the polls with DeSantis inching up and Trump slowly losing ground. Subtly now they start to gradually move their pieces away from Trump and we know Don is glued to Fox News. Most amusing.

[Ferris]

But he's not really in campaign mode, is he? When he is, he takes up huge amounts of space and shouts over the conversation in any room to the point that he has to be considered. He might even get his twitter account back.

I think if he runs, he'll win the GOP nomination because Cruz/Noem/DeSantis will have to be obsequiously deferential to him (to keep the base happy), which plays right into his hands on a debate stage. They also recognize that they only really have to wait 4 more years to have their turn.

[Pdine]

But he's not really in campaign mode, is he? When he is, he takes up huge amounts of space and shouts over the conversation in any room to the point that he has to be considered. He might even get his twitter account back.

I think if he runs, he'll win the GOP nomination because Cruz/Noem/DeSantis will have to be obsequiously deferential to him (to keep the base happy), which plays right into his hands on a debate stage. They also recognize that they only really have to wait 4 more years to have their turn.

Yeah that could happen certainly, but I have doubts about both his ability to re-solidify that fairly wide base he had in 2016, and his actual willingness to do it. All his rhetoric at the moment has to be seen in the light of the many legal cases pending against him. He has to appear to keep his options open as one of the strongest deterrents to prosecuting him so far has been politically appointed DAs fearing accusations of partisanship when taking action against another politician. If Trump feels the nomination is his best bet to keep his money and keep out of court, he'll pursue it, but those are exactly the circumstances in which the majority of the GOP will oppose him. Then it will just come down to raw ability to mobilise his supporters.

Who knows? (although I would point out that I was the first person on here to predict Trump's Presidency to much skepticism :) )

[wrec]

(although I would point out that I was the first person on here to predict Trump's Presidency to much skepticism :) )

Clicked on that thread and got sucked in. The early consensus is "President Clinton will comfortably beat any Republican nominee. Trump is an deranged extremist like Crombyn and his uncouth manner and lack of policies will be given short shrift by the GOP and electorate alike!".

[Toxteth OGrady]

Well in Pdine, you are my new favo(u)rite US affairs poster. Stupid question but did Donald ever reveal his beautiful secret plan for ISIS?

[superthunderstingcar]

If they try to disqualify Trump from holding office he'll just get his mates on the Supreme Court to say "nah, it's fine."