Stewart Lee: Basic Lee

[lauraxsynthesis]

Anyone else here going this Wednesday night?

I've not seen WiP for this one.

[somersetchris]

Anyone else here going this Wednesday night?

I've not seen WiP for this one.

This is the WiP isn't it? He's only just finished Snowflake / Tornado.

[DrGreggles]

Yeah, the finished show will tour next year.

[lauraxsynthesis]

Didn't seem much like a WIP. I imagine it'll evolve more than some of his shows because of bits of topical content in the first half but it's mostly set pieces that are deliberately there.

Very funny show. More audience interaction than I've seen from him before. As expected, the content was wide-ranging since it didn't have a strong theme going through it. He

Spoiler alert

slagged off Richard Herring in one bit - saying that RH gets on interesting guests then talks about himself at length.

[close]

True and very funny and I've heard him say similar before but also feels mean.

A lot of the second half is slagging off Fleabag and it didn't really work for me because the premise was that a character on TV addressing the audience is the same as stand up comedy. It just isn't. I expected he'd do what he often does and puncture the criticism by undermining himself later but that didn't happen. Other things bothered me about the Fleabag stuff but it's probably been in various threads on here before so I won't rehash.

It was press night and a lot of comedy was gotten out of him directing abuse at newspaper reviewers who were/might be in the audience. He also was or pretended to be angry about Logan's 3 star review in today's Guardian.

[Magnum Valentino]

Is there a chance he was talking about the stage version of Fleabag which is more like standup in presentation?

[Stone Cold Steve Austin]

Spoiler alert

it's about the show getting lauded for breaking the fourth wall and addressing the audience directly

[close]

[up_the_hampipe]

Apparently he also slags off Frankie Boyle again in this new show, which surprises me a bit, especially now that Boyle has refined his comedic style. Anyone know what he says?

[Stone Cold Steve Austin]

that he has a team of writers

[Ferris]

Perhaps this is just the character of Basic Lee.

[petril]

so should people make him Basic Lee? would they like him when he's Basic Lee?

[Twilkes]

A lot of the second half is slagging off Fleabag and it didn't really work for me because the premise was that a character on TV addressing the audience is the same as stand up comedy. It just isn't.

I hope he gave Miranda shit for her TV series too, it was basically Dave Allen in a dress. :rolleyes:

Breaking the fourth wall in that way is a theatrical tradition probably going back as far as theatre has been on a stage, it predates what we know as standup by thousands of years.

It seems where once Lee & Herring was about two young men, now it's about two older men, one of whom has grown up too much, and one of whom not enough, like the Brilliant/Rubbish characters from The Fast Show.

[up_the_hampipe]

that he has a team of writers

I see. I'm sure he does for his New World Order show, as do all comedians with shows like that, but I don't think he uses writers for his stand-up, at least not anymore.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Breaking the fourth wall in that way is a theatrical tradition probably going back as far as theatre has been on a stage, it predates what we know as standup by thousands of years.

I hate the phrase 'breaking the fourth wall'. Mostly because breaking it is more fundamental than having it. You could only generalise on the ubiquity of a 'fourth wall' from within a world where the most readily consumed fiction is english language television and cinema. Outside of that, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The fact it has replaced 'suspension of disbelief' has often struck me as the product of people who grew up only knowing television imagining in retrospect what it was like when people only knew theatre.

Its the sort of TVTropesy homogenous, incurious and facile understanding of fiction that the internet has popularised. Where fictional worlds exist in a little bubble seperate to our own. There was another thread recently where people complained about online obsessions about "lore" (I think in regards to the Don't Hug Me... series) and this is the same complaint.

The fourth wall is a didactic idea, a simplified and useful way of explaining suspension of disbelief to younger people who might not have thought about it very deeply about it before. Suspension of disbelief exists in all forms of art and seems to have origins in rituals and games where people play along or consent to suspend certain social norms. Its modal, not absolute. The difference is that if you tell younger people about the idea of the fourth wall, they'll start exploring those modalities and variations, and often quickly grasp that it is a concept related to consent rather than reality and representation. But online it seems its one of those things that is immediately taken as a hard and fast rule or global explanation for a variety of ideas.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

If Stewart Lee has said something stupid about the fourth wall that is disappointing because I remember him making a reference to clowning and chalk lines in one of his shows that was more nuanced, and made it seemed like he had his own unique take on the idea and knew what he was on about beyond weee I'm just a character cos I'm on stage like poo poo i hope the prime minister dies n word bumholes the audience are stupid pigs who dont even know who derek bailey was

[Twilkes]

I hate the phrase 'breaking the fourth wall'. Mostly because breaking it is more fundamental than having it. You could only generalise on the ubiquity of a 'fourth wall' from within a world where the most readily consumed fiction is english language television and cinema. Outside of that, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The fact it has replaced 'suspension of disbelief' has often struck me as the product of people who grew up only knowing television imagining in retrospect what it was like when people only knew theatre.

Its the sort of TVTropesy homogenous, incurious and facile understanding of fiction that the internet has popularised. Where fictional worlds exist in a little bubble seperate to our own. There was another thread recently where people complained about online obsessions about "lore" (I think in regards to the Don't Hug Me... series) and this is the same complaint.

The fourth wall is a didactic idea, a simplified and useful way of explaining suspension of disbelief to younger people who might not have thought about it very deeply about it before. Suspension of disbelief exists in all forms of art and seems to have origins in rituals and games where people play along or consent to suspend certain social norms. Its modal, not absolute. The difference is that if you tell younger people about the idea of the fourth wall, they'll start exploring those modalities and variations, and often quickly grasp that it is a concept related to consent rather than reality and representation. But online it seems its one of those things that is immediately taken as a hard and fast rule or global explanation for a variety of ideas.

Breaking the fourth wall is a subset of suspension of disbelief, which isn't limited to acknowledging the audience and includes such concepts as 'she isn't really a doctor' and 'that isn't a real gun' and 'he isn't really dead now'; it originated in the 18th century, and is heavily grounded in theatre where, who knew, there are generally three physical walls surrounding the actors, so stick that on a banana and go fuck a monkey with it.

[the science eel]

IT'S A FUCKING COMEDY ROUTINE YOU DULLARD LITERALIST CUNTS

[phantom_power]

I think breaking the fourth wall and suspension of disbelief are separate but sometimes linked things. Breaking the fourth wall can lead to a loss of suspension of disbelief but then so can bad acting, plotting, dialogue, flashy direction, all sorts of things.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Morbid Lee
Sexual Lee
Revolting Lee
Easy Lee
Bent Lee

[Pink Gregory]

Ackee, Salt Fish and Stew Lees

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Breaking the fourth wall is a subset of suspension of disbelief, which isn't limited to acknowledging the audience and includes such concepts as 'she isn't really a doctor' and 'that isn't a real gun' and 'he isn't really dead now'; it originated in the 18th century, and is heavily grounded in theatre where, who knew, there are generally three physical walls surrounding the actors, so stick that on a banana and go fuck a monkey with it.

This isn't really right. The 18th century concept has to do more with what we now think of absorption or whatever the right translation of the term from visual arts is - that is, that the performers in the theatre should act as if the audience is not there or that the painters should paint scenes of real life rather than figures posed for paintings. Something to do with verisimilitude or the authenticity of the actions being performed. Closer to comtemporary ideas of verité. It was more an imperative to performers or artists than it was ever a description of the contents of piece of fiction, it even applies to pieces where characters do address the audience. Critics of the time did not make much of a distinction between suspension of disbelief and its variations. A lot of the distinctions around naturalism and realism in fiction we take for granted are comparatively recent, definitely post-romantic or even modern. The idea of the "fourth wall" as a feature of the content of a piece of fiction is very recent, 1950ish onwards and are mostly about cinema or television using theatrical performance as a metaphor. It also does not predate the idea of breaking the fourth wall. As I said, it is very very difficult for me (as a researcher) to imagine the generalisation or globalisation of the term in a world not dominated by English language cinema and television. Instead I imagine we'd still drawn on metaphors based around sports, games and religious rituals where a lot of our language and ideas about fiction and performance originate (check out the first post in this thread for a great example). The term wouldn't have much didactic use if most younger people's experience of performance were theatrical and involved audiences being addressed or participating, or less formal kinds of theatre and comedy involving chalk circles or surrounded platforms. But on tv and in cinema the vast majority of performances really are captured as if the curtain was never raised, making addresses to the audience something more of matter of content or a 'trope' rather than performance convention since there is no longer a possibility of interaction and it doesn't carry the same risk of the audience no longer actively consenting to suspend disbelief. A lot of comedy that does it still acts like this risk is still there when it isn't - Frankie Howard in Up Pompeii acting like he's trying to keep our attention and we could just walk away if his story gets boring. Interesting topic! Eh, readers?

Morbid Lee
Sexual Lee
Revolting Lee
Easy Lee
Bent Lee

Pedantic Lee

[Twilkes]

Chun Lee, purely for the costume.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Chun Lee, purely for the costume.

a map of the london underground has let itself go

[dissolute ocelot]

Shakespeare characters spoke to the audience in asides, in soliloquys, and in direct addresses, which were three different conventional forms each with separate rules, all of which acknowledged the audience and artifice to different extents. The Fleabag aside is another version with its own rules.

[ProvanFan]

Wanking the fourth wall

[McDead]

Literal Lee

[idunnosomename]

Legend GaLee

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Shakespeare characters spoke to the audience in asides, in soliloquys, and in direct addresses, which were three different conventional forms each with separate rules, all of which acknowledged the audience and artifice to different extents. The Fleabag aside is another version with its own rules.

a contrast which exists in relation to religious rituals and team games, where if the audience interacts or are addressed, the whole activity usually falls apart. rather than a prior standard that seperates of fiction and the audience.

[somersetchris]

Wanking the fourth wall

I am breaking the fourth wall as I write this

[lauraxsynthesis]

I am breaking the fourth wall as I write this

Excellent work 👍

[Twilkes]

The First Noël , The Second Coming, The Third Reich, The Fourth Wall, The Fifth Element, The Sixth Sense, The Seventh Seal, The Eighth what?