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YouTuber Shaun debunks Jimmy Dore's anti-vaccination videos

Started by Petey Pate, November 08, 2021, 05:13:51 PM

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Video Game Fan 2000

I hate to quote Zizek, but I think his idea of "interpassivity" is useful for this phenomenon. Like, sitcoms that aren't intended to get big laughs but to be comfort watched, like Big Bang Theory and Friends, tend to have raucous laugh tracks. They're not meant to have people rolling around on the floor, they're meant for people to watch over dinner or have on in the background. But stuff that's big laughs all the time like Simpsons, Curb or a Mel Brooks movie won't have any cues for laughs at all. Because less engaging media has an element where someone is responding for you, laughing at what's funny so you can do something else. But with Simpsons or Curb you'll be engaged all the time, even if you're not necessarily laughing. A laugh track would be distracting, not comforting.

No matter how personal our experience of a piece of media or a political event is, most of our understanding of it will be received wisdom. So there's something exploitable about the part of that understanding that is done on our behalf, something else who can explain why a certain movie thing is annoying or why a pop culture thing feels politically sus. Its not the same as someone understanding stuff so you don't have to, its the outsourcing of understanding to one-sided and antisocial process. Understanding is deeply, deeply social thing and is full of interpersonal/intersubjective cues that humans get good brain reactions out of. It's also maybe the point where the distinction between "social" and "personal" becomes moot, because "my understanding" is "our understanding" to a great extent, which leads to ingroup/outgroup stuff.

(sorry Trenter didnt mean to roll your post)

chveik

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on November 09, 2021, 11:45:49 AM
I'm enjoying the irony of someone who writes paragraphs and paragraphs that nobody else bothers to read complaining about 90 minute long videos about "Twitter bullshit"

lol how angry one cay be by the criticism of what is arguably the dregs of entertainment, 'debunking' videos

Lemming

As long as people are just giving their opinions on video essays in general, I can't stand Shaun. I liked his early video about sexism in chess and one or two others but nowadays his Twitter persona is so weird and grating that I scroll past at lightspeed whenever one of his posts pops up somewhere, and his voice is so deliberate and condescending that listening to one of his videos makes it feel like you're physically backed into a corner and he's advancing towards you, giving you a relentless monotone polemic about his latest Twitter drama spat while you shrink further and further away and try and will yourself into death. Probably a cautionary tale somewhere in there about becoming a well-paid "video essayist" online who ends up spending all day trapped in a relatively small internet-based, drama-fueled circle.

It's a really odd genre of video to start with when you think about it, a completely non-interactive lecture where someone talks to you like you're a child and tells you what to think - you either already agree, in which case the video's a waste of time, or already disagree, in which case being talked down to isn't going to change your mind. Same for any topic, even for video game essays!

The big mystery is that Jen person though, who made videos with him ages ago. Where is she? Dead? In jail? Left after dispute over share of Youtube/Patreon riches? Had a change of heart? Had an epiphany and realised that spending so much time getting mad at right-wingers on the internet with stupid usernames like "The Reasoning Logician" is not the life she wanted to lead? Left with the Peace Corps? Defected to North Korea? Shaun started talking to her in real life the way he talks in videos and it got too insufferable to handle so she left? One of the great puzzles of the era, a modern day Earhart.

Retinend

On the other hand, I think he's very astute and I like his very dry sense of humour. The persona, or whatever it is, works for me. Even for hours at a time. I liked the cinema sins videos, for example - all the more for its unusual divergence from the norm for the channel.

As a person, I don't like him.  My only interaction with him on Twitter ended up with him siccing his mindless fans on me with the dishonest insinuation that I supported sex trafficking. He's a clever clogs, but he doesn't seem like a very worldly person. As you say, he seems to view the world through a drama-fuelled twitter circle, and his twitter timeline is just completely unfiltered Twitter politicking.

chveik

Quote from: Retinend on November 09, 2021, 06:16:18 PM
As a person, I don't like him.  My only interaction with him on Twitter ended up with him siccing his mindless fans on me with the dishonest insinuation that I supported sex trafficking. He's a clever clogs, but he doesn't seem like a very worldly person. As you say, he seems to view the world through a drama-fuelled twitter circle, and his twitter timeline is just completely unfiltered Twitter politicking.

we told you you should've kept your Steven Pinker fandom to yourself

Thursday

I interacted with him once by making a joke in response to something he said which he liked and a ton of his followers did, because I'm really funny.

Retinend

Quote from: chveik on November 09, 2021, 07:06:24 PM
we told you you should've kept your Steven Pinker fandom to yourself

I prefer not to! Neither is that a justification for intimidation, IMHO. Lowlives may beg to differ, of course...

chveik


chveik

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 09, 2021, 03:45:40 PM
I hate to quote Zizek, but I think his idea of "interpassivity" is useful for this phenomenon. Like, sitcoms that aren't intended to get big laughs but to be comfort watched, like Big Bang Theory and Friends, tend to have raucous laugh tracks. They're not meant to have people rolling around on the floor, they're meant for people to watch over dinner or have on in the background.

how does he explain Seinfeld then


Video Game Fan 2000

My point wasn't really that Zizek is right about canned laughter - he cherrypicks or his example doesn't work at all. But that "interpassivity" is what is happening with Youtube explainer videos because that kind of interpretation is a collective behaviour for most people - like this forum discussing when the Simpsons got shit. But with video essays both sides do nothing - the guy who made the video explained himself to the void behind his mic, and then the listener is just listening, not really engaged like you would be if were doing it at a seminar or with friends.

Peterson is the ur-example because he's saying actually nothing, just performing the idea of analysis without doing any, and his audience aren't the class he's speaking to they're disengaged viewers on youtube. A guy who is conspicuously not-teaching hooked up to a bunch of kids who are conspicuously not-learning.

Petey Pate

#71
For all three people invested in this drama, Dore has responded with a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GPx1YTsS7Y&t=51s

Edit: Main takeaway from it this that the misleading graphic from the Singapore article is blamed on a producer who he subsequently fired. 

PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 08, 2021, 05:46:01 PM
Fifty minutes of a twitter feud. I thought Shaun was getting on track again with the PragerU stuff, but no back to Twitter and Youtube.

These leftie youtube vids are getting worse and worse. I saw that Folding Ideas one about Jamie Oliver, how can you go wrong with that easiest target in the world, but no he thought Jamie Oliver was talking about American school meals and did a discourse analysis to say it was "classist" to hate chicken nuggets on the basis of them containing as much connective tissue as flesh. Damn, sorry for punching down on Bernard Matthews.

Last couple of folding ideas videos seem to just be him smugly having a dig at people, and he's not nearly charming enough to pull it off. Done with him

Retinend

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on November 11, 2021, 09:16:59 AM
Last couple of folding ideas videos seem to just be him smugly having a dig at people, and he's not nearly charming enough to pull it off. Done with him

I remember when someone posted this turd of a video by Folding Ideas - where he attempts to pick the low-hanging fruit that is his ex-associate Doug "Nostalgia Critic" Walker ... yet somehow coming off as the bigger prick in his manner of doing so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokAtlFGa7Y
The Nostalgia Critic and The Wall
1,232,339 viewsApr 13, 2021

edit: it was courtesy of member Lazarou: thread link - Re: Cunts And Shitheads Of YouTube

PlanktonSideburns

Yea he is just skimming off the top in that video, no insight into anything interesting going on with its subject

Pauline Walnuts

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on November 11, 2021, 12:18:05 PM
Yea he is just skimming off the top in that video, no insight into anything interesting going on with its subject

Which one?

Just watched some of 'Folding Ideas Bakshi's Lord of the Rings' video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr_rb_pitHk I don't know which is worse, the fact he thinks the character development of the Peter Jackass films was close to the book or that he don't know how to pronounce Gandalf.



He also thinks the Smoke in the background of the Battle of Helm's Deep is supposed to be clouds.

LOUD PING NOISE.

Quote from: OnlyRegisteredSoICanRead on November 11, 2021, 03:43:11 PM

He also thinks the Smoke in the background of the Battle of Helm's Deep is supposed to be clouds.

LOUD PING NOISE.

He said "stock footage of clouds" in reference to the film taking short-cuts with background art, not that it's supposed to literally represent clouds


Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

that looks more like heavy cloud cover than smoke to me tbh

perhaps in the movie it's supposed to be smoke but smoke wouldn't look like smoke once you apply a red filter

Pauline Walnuts

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on November 11, 2021, 10:46:31 PM
that looks more like heavy cloud cover than smoke to me tbh


That's because he's using stock cloud footage to look like smoke or just as general background to the battle scene, never said it was a good idea or effective, it's been so long since I've seen that film, but unlike Folding Ideas I can understand why a film running over budget or out of time would start looking a bit ragged towards the end and not droning on about it for 20 odd minutes.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on November 11, 2021, 10:46:31 PM
perhaps in the movie it's supposed to be smoke but smoke wouldn't look like smoke once you apply a red filter

You have to use cows taped together to look like smoke in the movies.

Sonny_Jim

Quote from: Retinend on November 11, 2021, 10:05:47 AM
I remember when someone posted this turd of a video by Folding Ideas - where he attempts to pick the low-hanging fruit that is his ex-associate Doug "Nostalgia Critic" Walker .
In a similar vein, ralphthemoviemaker has covered a few of Doug Walkers 'films' but I think his more playground approach stops it from getting too smug.


Mister Six

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 09, 2021, 09:32:03 PM
My point wasn't really that Zizek is right about canned laughter - he cherrypicks or his example doesn't work at all. But that "interpassivity" is what is happening with Youtube explainer videos because that kind of interpretation is a collective behaviour for most people - like this forum discussing when the Simpsons got shit. But with video essays both sides do nothing - the guy who made the video explained himself to the void behind his mic, and then the listener is just listening, not really engaged like you would be if were doing it at a seminar or with friends.

What's the difference between Person X absorbing YouTuber Y's arguments via a video and you absorbing Zizek's thoughts on interpassivity through whatever medium you consumed? I'm assuming you haven't been personally mentored by Zizek.

chveik


Video Game Fan 2000

#84
Quote from: Mister Six on November 12, 2021, 01:51:13 PM
What's the difference between Person X absorbing YouTuber Y's arguments via a video and you absorbing Zizek's thoughts on interpassivity through whatever medium you consumed? I'm assuming you haven't been personally mentored by Zizek.

Because I learned a concept and went away and used it a different context (other than messageboard discussions).

Whereas Peterson isn't communicating any particular useful concepts someone could take away and learn, then apply in a different context. I mean maybe if you didn't know what "narrative structure" or "archetype" mean before watching a Peterson video? Peterson is an extreme example because his rhetoric is really empty, which makes him a good plumline to use as a point of comparision.

Part of what makes Petersons "classroom" videos so interesting to me is that the parts of what he discusses that I know about, narrative studies - studying narrative structure or more concept ideas about it - or comparative stuff about mythology or culture are notoriously difficult subjects to teach in a manner that's just a guy standing up at the front of the class telling people definitions and giving examples. Generally a seminar or an open discussion is the minimum. Of course, because Peterson isn't really teaching anyone anything, the lesson is broken into chunks and relabelled "how to succeed", "how to stop being a nice guy", etc. The self-help part isn't about engaging with new ideas, its about suffering through a lecture as if it was an obstacle course. Endurance not engagement.

It's a good example to talk about the limitations and ideologisation of media like Youtube because its taking this thing, which is generally a group participation activity, and removes the participatory and response element. There are a lot of long essay style videos on topics like narrative structure, meaning, etc. related ideas online and some of them are really popular, and the viewers get very invested with the political opinions associated with the person who wrote and performs the essay, so its a significant thing to be critical about and ask what the appeal really is. It goes for discourse analysis too because its a pretty extreme thing when you have people do discourse analysis on real events as if they were a piece of media, which Folding Ideas and Shaun do frequently. So you end up with the stuff that isn't about what its about, its about what what we talk about when we talk about it, hashing and rehashing discursive positions. Its never really about X & Y its about how to position yourself relative to X & Y. Very often they get to the end of the video without having explained the idea itself at all.


Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 12, 2021, 02:41:23 PM
Because I learned a concept and went away and used it a different context (other than messageboard discussions).


Whereas Peterson isn't communicating any particular useful concepts someone could take away and learn, then apply in a different context.


Quote from: Mister Six on November 12, 2021, 01:51:13 PM
What's the difference between Person X absorbing YouTuber Y's arguments via a video and...
Mister Six didn't mention Peterson, you did. If only Zizek had talked about not putting words in peoples' mouths.

Mister Six

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 12, 2021, 02:41:23 PM
Because I learned a concept and went away and used it a different context (other than messageboard discussions).

Why do you think YouTube videos preclude their viewers from doing this?

I didn't mention Peterson.

Retinend

peterson person, potato potahdo, let's call the whole thread off

Video Game Fan 2000

#88
But that's why I brought up the idea in the first place? Check the post on the previous page. I wasn't generalising to all video content, just a certain kind of "explainer" video typified by Peterson. These videos typically focus more on how an idea or event is spoken about than the idea or event itself, and focus on a moral or political message.

Quote from: Mister Six on November 12, 2021, 03:01:49 PM
Why do you think YouTube videos preclude their viewers from doing this?

I didn't mention Peterson.

Because they're one-sided, usually focused on elevating the personality or brand of the person giving the essay - which tends to be an enormous part of youtube video essay culture. Then focused on discourse about an idea rather than an idea. Very often, the central ideas go completely unexplained because the discursive/moral context is what the performer wants to get to. You have the performer, their aesthetic and branding, their political identification... its all bound up in the presentation. People are very unlikely to watch a "breadtube" video out of curiosity about ideas if they identify as conservative, and vice versa. Its all about who is speaking and not so much about what is being said.

Generally discussion and participation is considered crucial to communicating or teaching ideas on subjects like morality, meaning, narratives, etc. Making it branded, commodified, so its about the personality of one performer simply telling the audience is notable. I don't think its the same as picking up an idea from a book!

Cold Meat Platter

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on November 12, 2021, 03:04:56 PM

Generally discussion and participation is considered crucial to communicating or teaching ideas on subjects like morality, meaning, narratives, etc. Making it branded, commodified, so its about the personality of one performer simply telling the audience is notable. I don't think its the same as picking up an idea from a book!

You can read books because of the same attraction to a personality/brand though. I would argue that these are the more dangerous books because they're likely to be one of the few on the shelf.