Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 07:57:40 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Kenneth Williams

Started by M-CORP, December 09, 2021, 11:32:29 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

M-CORP

So I finished reading the man's diaries the other day. I wasn't expecting the most uplifting read, knowing the tragic story, but even so...
You have a man who was clearly talented - in the clip below he takes complete control of the chat show, going on a whole rant with little prompting. Regardless of how many times he'd done it before in other contexts, it's still impressive to see the energy he puts in - how he goes from formal accent to Cockney and back again...


...yet in the diary he looks back upon it merely as 'verbal diarrhoea'. He was incredibly harsh on himself and the actors and scripts around him, at times being incredibly rude to the point that you can understand why he lost a lot of friends. His evident manic depression was confounded by his inability to reconcile his homosexuality with his conservative and religious upbringing. Some entries see him generously give to homeless people and condemn South African apartheid, while others see him praise Thatcher and condemn his noisy neighbours with racist slurs.
All of this makes it hard to know what to think of the man... though you find it interesting how he frequently condemns Tony Hancock, while seeming to share a similar frustration with his occupation, a similar desire to be doing something more artistically substantial, though exactly what he has no idea. A thread that runs throughout Ken's diaries is a feeling that his role in entertainment is immaterial - he even goes so far as to say towards the end of his life that he feels he's never done a proper day's work.
He was a vital force in the Carry On films, providing a cerebral foil to the less intellectual actors like Sid James and so on, but did he have more potential as a serious actor? Has anyone else here read his diaries?

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: M-CORP on December 09, 2021, 11:32:29 AMHas anyone else here read his diaries?

I read about half of them but had pretty much the same reaction as you, and found them exhausting to read, I have an awful lot of sympathy for Williams but he could definitely be a deeply unpleasant man at times and I've no urge to finish the book .

dissolute ocelot

It's interesting that he seems to have done almost no serious acting once he came to fame: he was in a version of Shaw's St Joan in the 1950s, and apparently pops up in Peter Brook's 1953 film of the Beggar's Opera. He directed a few plays later, including some Joe Ortons, so he obviously had continued interest in theatre. But while the likes of Hancock and Peter Sellars desired more serious roles, Williams never did any - you hint at reasons why, and I'm sure if he wanted to do something more serious he would have found a way to do it, and could certainly have done some classic roles in comedy, e.g. Malvolio (how good he'd be at something with more emotion is uncertain). Some people get rich and spend their time happily playing golf and doing chat-shows rather than working hard, but Williams was clearly a more complex character.

I've never read the diaries. They sound fascinating as a portrayal of a slice of British artistic life, but don't sound the easiest read.

Glebe

Watched An Audience with Kenneth Williams on YT awhile ago.

Bigfella

I always love his performances in Hancock and Round the Horne.  He justs effortlessly packs character into a funny voice.  Keep meaning to check if he ever did serious films, think he did drama in the theatre.

Bigfella

After hitting 'post' I noticed that Ocelot is supplying the info I wanted.  Cheers!

pigamus

Funniest bit in the dairies is the bit where he definitely, definitely, definitely doesn't poison his own father

"V. mysterious", I actually laughed out loud at that bit

Ignatius_S

Quote from: pigamus on December 09, 2021, 01:29:44 PMFunniest bit in the dairies is the bit where he definitely, definitely, definitely doesn't poison his own father

"V. mysterious", I actually laughed out loud at that bit

Actually, Williams' half-sister Pat is a much more likely contender - especially as she was living with her mother and Charlie (Kenneth's father). Pat and Charlie loathed each other. The evidence that Williams hated his father is what Pat said after Kenneth died. 

Lou, the mother, was engaged and shortly before the wedding, had sex with her fiancée, which resulted in her pregnancy - and her fiancée calling off the wedding. At the time, there was a huge stigma having a child out of wedlock and and usually, the odds would have been that Lou would had remained unmarried because of that - Charlie, for all his faults, had a far more non-judgemental view of Lou that would have been very untypical.

However, Pat and Charlie never got on and he regularly reminded her she was illegitimate. According to Christopher Stevens' excellent biography of Williams and who had full access to the diaries, although his relationship wasn't easy with his father, the diaries show a very Edwardian attitude of 'Honour thy father and thy mother'.

After Williams dies, Pat was interviewed and made much about how much he hated Charlie but according to Stevens, there is nothing in the diaries to suggest that - and given the confidante nature of the diaries, that would be revealed. Stevens suggests that what Pat said was about her feelings rather than Ken's.

The idea that Williams poisoned his father was mooted in the Butters and Davies book but it's very flimsy stuff indeed.  The Stevens book looks at it with more rigour and Pat comes across as having far more opportunity and motive.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Bigfella on December 09, 2021, 01:19:03 PMAfter hitting 'post' I noticed that Ocelot is supplying the info I wanted.  Cheers!
Quote from: Bigfella on December 09, 2021, 01:11:54 PMI always love his performances in Hancock and Round the Horne.  He justs effortlessly packs character into a funny voice.  Keep meaning to check if he ever did serious films, think he did drama in the theatre.

He did a lot more theatre than was mentioned above.  It's true that when he was persuaded to take up with a Hancock, Williams moved away from serious theatre to a large degree but not entirely.

Orion wrote the part of Truscott of him - when the first production flopped but the next (without him) was a big hit, I think dented his confidence. However, he got bored of doing the same script every night in plays, which was another factor. 

Edit - check out the audio recording for Diary of a Madman, which was intended for a film.

Brundle-Fly


the science eel

Quote from: Glebe on December 09, 2021, 01:08:14 PMWatched An Audience with Kenneth Williams on YT awhile ago.

I love that show to pieces. It's so obvious that despite his bellyaching in the diaries about playing to the gallery and 'cheapening' himself, he's absolutely in his element prancing about doing whatever he wants and getting peals of laughter from a very jolly crowd. Anecdotes mostly, but the songs are fabulous too. I think I prefer it to the more celebrated Billy Connolly show - which of course is also great.


jobotic

Did he intend for his diaries to be published?

Gman2809

I recall he did an interview with Mavis Nicholson who asked him about whether he would mind them being published and he said he wouldn't mind, as long as it was after his death.

Williams was probably one of the first comedy personalities I was aware of, through my dad's record of his versions of Peter Cook's monologues and his appearances on Jackanory, and similarly one of the first famous people who's death had an impact on me. His readings of Just William stories were legendary in my family, even better than the Martin Jarvis versions - it's a shame he only recorded eight of them.

It's quite amazing to me that neither those nor his great 1966 album "On Pleasure Bent" have ever been reissued on any format, especially given Williams enduring popularity. I occasionally check streaming services to see if the latter turned up one of those but nope, completely lost to time.

Glebe

Quote from: the science eel on December 09, 2021, 07:31:39 PMI love that show to pieces. It's so obvious that despite his bellyaching in the diaries about playing to the gallery and 'cheapening' himself, he's absolutely in his element prancing about doing whatever he wants and getting peals of laughter from a very jolly crowd. Anecdotes mostly, but the songs are fabulous too. I think I prefer it to the more celebrated Billy Connolly show - which of course is also great.

Some interesting stuff revealed in that (certainly things I wasn't aware of anyway)... didn't know he was in the army with Stanley Baxter, nor that he worked with Orson Welles.

Bad Ambassador

My parents saw him perform live in One Over the Eight in the West End. He was very good, apparently.

Psmith

A very long time ago.I remember him disparaging Sid's laugh and  being impressed by Harry Secombe when he took over from Hancock for a bit.He also said he found it difficult to act with a prop.Brilliant performer though.Carry On highlights for me always involve him.

Autopsy Turvey

That Diary of a Madman recording is extraordinary, and our only real hint as to how convincingly he could have nailed chillingly serious drama. For me though,  he didn't do enough comedy; as one of the most fluently, outrageously funny people who ever lived, he could have done multiple series of Audience With-style anecdotes, skits and songs, and he never got his own sitcom vehicle, or a Six Dates With Barker-style character anthology.

He wasn't best served by kids' TV either,  compared to colleagues like Hugh 'Pardon My Genie' Paddick or John 'Robert's Robots' Clive. He was wasted in Galloping Galaxies, although I'd love to see The Whizzkids Guide (briefly scheduled by Talking Pictures last year, then removed and never mentioned again, presumably because they remembered Arthur Mullard was a literal sex beast).

His diaries get very difficult to read towards the end; even if you can find some grim amusement in his vituperative bitterness, his descriptions of multiple physical ailments are both harrowing and dull.

the science eel

and of course that terribly sad last line...

Art Bear

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on December 09, 2021, 10:52:30 PMIt's quite amazing to me that neither those nor his great 1966 album "On Pleasure Bent" have ever been reissued on any format, especially given Williams enduring popularity. I occasionally check streaming services to see if the latter turned up one of those but nope, completely lost to time.

A couple of people are sharing "On Pleasure Bent" on slsk if that's of interest to you.

Quote from: Art Bear on December 10, 2021, 11:33:25 AMA couple of people are sharing "On Pleasure Bent" on slsk if that's of interest to you.

That was where I was able to source it eventually(thank-you, anyway), but I think I was more expressing incredulity that in an era when you can access almost any music recorded in the last hundred-and-twenty-odd years with relative ease, this has fallen through the cracks. It never even made it as far as cassettes as far as I can see, original LP release and that's it!

Here's some of the William stories mentioned earlier, such a great performance. Can still quote large bits of this from memory.

Glebe

Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on December 10, 2021, 09:59:17 AMHe wasn't best served by kids' TV either

Willo the Wisp was great though.


Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: Glebe on December 10, 2021, 01:08:44 PMWillo the Wisp was great though.

Ohh god yes, what a set-up. An anthropomorphic cloud of phosphorescent marsh gas!

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Glebe on December 10, 2021, 01:08:44 PMWillo the Wisp was great though...

Aye, it was. Williams was also very fond of Galloping Galaxies and used to carry photos of his characters, which he would sign if people asked for his autograph.

It's a long time since I read his letters that Davies curated but I think it's mentioned there that one reason Williams liked GG, Willo the Wisp and doing work like Jackanory is that it brought him new fans and liked the way children associated him with those shows. From what I've read, whenever children did recognise him in public, he was always lovely to them.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: the science eel on December 10, 2021, 11:15:43 AMand of course that terribly sad last line...

The sadness really depends on whether someone reads it as a suicide note. Stevens in his biography of Williams discounts that possibility and is persuasive.

Interestingly, William wrote something essentially the same years earlier.


Ignatius_S

Quote from: Glebe on December 09, 2021, 11:08:01 PMSome interesting stuff revealed in that (certainly things I wasn't aware of anyway)... didn't know he was in the army with Stanley Baxter, nor that he worked with Orson Welles.

I can't remember if it's mentioned in that audience, but Peter Nichols was also an army friend and his play, Privates on Parade was loosely based on their experience.

Welles also wanted to work with Williams again, but the latter turned down the offer. One film (I think The Chimes of Midnight), Welles attempted to get Williams to record a voiceover for it but would have required Williams to work in Europe (either Paris or Venice) which he had an aversion to. However, the Moby Dick Rehearsed play was quite an ordeal and from all accounts, Williams wouldn't have been keen working again with him again. My memory might be playing tricks but I have a feeling that there was another project that Welles tried getting Williams to do.

The cast of the Moby Dick play was rather something.... Orson Welles, Christopher Lee, Kenneth Williams, Joan Plowright, Patrick McGoohan, Gordon Jackson, Peter Sallis, and Wensley Pithey.

Virgo76

Quote from: Ignatius_S on December 10, 2021, 01:39:11 PMThe cast of the Moby Dick play was rather something.... Orson Welles, Christopher Lee, Kenneth Williams, Joan Plowright, Patrick McGoohan, Gordon Jackson, Peter Sallis, and Wensley Pithey.

Wensley Pithey! Wow!
Never heard of any of the others.

Ignatius_S

Regarding Williams ability as a 'serious' actor - I went to a screening of an episode of an Arts programme (Monitor?) where Maggie Smith was being interviewed and, much to her delight, Kenneth was brought on as a surprise guest.

It was fascinating watching them discuss acting and to see Williams talking to seriously and insightfully. Also, it was interesting to be able to see how visible to see the connection they had - the warmth was fantastic, but love is perhaps a better word.

There is a clip from it in the (so-so) Reputations documentary, which this is taken from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzYpNiDveM0. However, it's such a pity that the whole interview isn't available as it really is so interesting.

famethrowa

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on December 09, 2021, 10:52:30 PMIt's quite amazing to me that neither those nor his great 1966 album "On Pleasure Bent" have ever been reissued on any format, especially given Williams enduring popularity. I occasionally check streaming services to see if the latter turned up one of those but nope, completely lost to time.

As a casual Ken fan, I was amazed to hear this lovely song from that album, it's stunningly good, proper comedy pathos whimsy. The orchestration is pure English Percy Grainger/Ronald Binge style, and the Cornish accent is very affecting. Love it, here's the only decent audio of it out there:

http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DP/2007/12/355_07_Kenneth_Williams_-_Minnie_Dyer.mp3

(from this essential rare album -
http://wfmu.org/365/2007/355.shtml)

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Virgo76 on December 10, 2021, 01:48:53 PMWensley Pithey! Wow!
Never heard of any of the others.

Ah, in these ever-changing times, it's refreshing that some things remain consistent.

Pithey was an incredibly prolific actor, usually in character roles, and featured in a good number of notable films and iconic TV shows (e.g. Callan and Doomwatch; in Special Branch, he was the lead in the first series, so didn't exclusively do character roles) but was probably better known for his extensive stage work, especially Shakespeare.