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Roe v. Wade is overturned

Started by Dark Sexy Dangerous, June 24, 2022, 03:32:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Quote from: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 09:29:52 PMI tell you what though if came out to it and did this:



To the bit where it said "go and kill the yellow man", I would have voted Reagan.

ah fuck it lets skip State Trooper and just go with Frankie Teardrop at all GOP events from here on out, get the Winklevoss twins to do kareoke Ballad of Hollis Brown in the interim


flotemysost

Quote from: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 09:12:47 PMThese turds always unironically quote that part of the MLK speech, it's amazing.

Yep, right-wing people who don't actually give a shit about marginalised groups just love to misapropriate MLK, and also Nelson Mandela. There's a great bit in the excellent Natives by Akala about this.

Quote from: Kankurette on June 30, 2022, 09:05:28 PM(Also, forced-birthers and antivaxxers have some overlap, which is pretty ironic considering that refusing to get vaccinated is arguably more dangerous than abortion, but then vaccines don't have the satisfaction of punishing the sluts.)

I posted about it in the covid sub at the time, but some antivax evangelical who was spouting off outside Kings Cross station last year when I was passing by caught my eye just as he was getting to his spiel about controlling the population, and he said something like "You're a fertile woman in your prime, what do you think of it all?". Didn't have the heart to tell him I've got PCOS, plus I'm on the Pill so I hope to fuck I'm not fertile (though what I did say to him wasn't very polite either, I'm afraid).

But yeah, the obsession with women being breeding machines is rife across the spectrum of right-wing nuttiness.

Quotetoday we will be discussing the unraveling of American society into a godless society of abortions and rainbow cults.

It's embryos, not THEMbryos!


Kankurette

O, komm süße Menopause!
Quote from: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 09:12:47 PMThese turds always unironically quote that part of the MLK speech, it's amazing.
And they would have hated him when he was alive. (And incidentally, MLK did not like white liberals either. Didn't he say 'beware the white moderate'?)

He also thought Americans of every kind should unite to overthrow the greater evil, capitalism

if he was born in Latin America we'd probably call him liberation theologist

katzenjammer

Got to admit I hadn't even considered this kind of horrific situation. How can anyone possibly justify this? Religious nut job or not.

QuoteAs Ohio restricts abortions, 10-year-old girl travels to Indiana for procedure

https://eu.dispatch.com/story/news/2022/07/01/ohio-girl-10-among-patients-going-indiana-abortion/7788415001/

flotemysost

^ and you can absolutely bet that people will be murdered by abusive partners/relatives etc. for having the cheek to get pregnant, and not being able to get rid of the evidence. I mean, it happens already, but it's going to get worse.

Blue Jam

Any uterus-havers who are considering sterilisation and pushing 40: Could you be a candidate for a copper IUD? After I had problems with my last Nexplanon implant I found a nice sympathetic (male!) GP who said he'd be happy to refer me for a tubal ligation, but suggested I try a 10-year copper IUD because at my age (37 at the time) that would be as good as sterilisation. Less invasive, no risk from general anaesthetic, and lower failure rate too (tubal ligations have a 1 in 200 chance of failing over a lifetime!). They're not for everyone but the option is out there.

When Donald Trump was elected there was apparently a rise in the number of women in the US getting referred for IUDs, because there was talk of overturning Roe vs Wade, reducing access to contraception from healthcare insurers etc, and as IUDs last a minimum of five years that's longer than Trump's presidency was likely to last (a prediction that turned out to be accurate).

flotemysost

^ thanks for that, @Blue Jam. Think I've been put off by stories about some people having really heavy periods when they've had it installed - I know it can go either way, but that would be a no-no for me I'm afraid. Also, I'm a massive wimp even when it comes to getting a regular smear done; an old flatmate of mine told me she fainted when she got her coil put in, and I felt a bit wobbly even hearing her say that.

However my current flatmate (who is wonderful) actually doles out contraception for a living, so I'll have a word with her :)

I guess as someone who isn't in a monogamous partnership, I'd expect any new partner (who has a penis) to use additional protection anyway, but sadly I've had enough experiences of cishet men being very blase about this, to the point of flat out deception (AKA stealthing) so yeah, I don't fully trust anyone, really. The Pill has been great for the most part - aside from when they switched my prescription to Rigevidon without warning, and I wanted to stroll under a double-decker bus FOTREVER after a few weeks on it - but I have this fear that I'll develop a heart condition that means I can't take any kind of pill any more (given ye olde family history).

Bit of a tangent, but honestly, the number of times some idiot has said "you're on the Pill, yeah?", I'd be absolutely minted if I had a quid whenever a cishet man has failed to realise a) how STIs work, and b) securing and taking hormonal contraception isn't a fucking walk in the park without risks.

Sorry, bit of a rant but I do think it bears stressing how it's not solely on the person who's at risk of getting pregnant to manage this shit. It's not straightforward, not everyone can "just go on the Pill", not every type of contraceptive works for everyone, basically wear a fucking coindom you absolute mallards

I'm def not correcting that typo btw. COINDOM

bgmnts

Wait, the pill doesn't prevent STIs?

I've got some appointments to book...


(Laughably, I always kept a condom in my wallet JUST IN CASE, it was the same one I had when I binned it a year ago.)

touchingcloth

Coindom is definitely a subset of the fetish world. A man who throws pennies.

Zero Gravitas

Quote from: touchingcloth on July 03, 2022, 12:17:57 AMCoindom is definitely a subset of the fetish world. A man who throws pennies.

Isn't it when they're slowly and sternly counted in and then you're given permission to release like a penny falls.

touchingcloth

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on July 03, 2022, 12:38:22 AMIsn't it when they're slowly and sternly counted in and then you're given permission to release like a penny falls.

Officiated by Danny Dyer.

bgmnts


Johnny Yesno

We're not as safe from this madness as we thought, it seems:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/02/women-accused-of-abortions-in-england-and-wales-after-miscarriages-and-stillbirths

QuoteWomen in England and Wales who have suffered miscarriages or stillbirths are being investigated by police on suspicion of having illegal abortions, with some forced to hand over their phones and laptops for invasive "digital strip searches".

In one case in 2021, a 15-year-old girl who had an unexplained early stillbirth was subjected to a year-long criminal investigation that saw her text messages and search history examined. Police dropped the case after a coroner concluded the pregnancy ended because of natural causes.

The teenager was investigated under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act, which says it is unlawful to procure a miscarriage using "poison", "an instrument" or "other means whatsoever", and that those found guilty can be jailed for life.

touchingcloth

What sort of instruments work best? Tin whistles?

flotemysost

Seriiously?! At 15 your menstrual cycle likely isn't regular yet anyway (though obviously there are also many adults whose cycles are naturally very irregular for life - I'm one of them), so it might take longer than expected to even realise you're pregnant.

Added to the fact that we have no idea about the circumstances around that pregnancy - I don't want to stigmatise teenage parenthood by assuming it was unplanned, as there are loads of awesome young parents out there, but we don't know what the girl was up against, and even with the most supportive family/network, teenage pregnancy is undeniably shamed and and stigmatised in our society - I think it'd be pretty fair for someone in that position to have been looking up options for terminating it. Honestly fuck any system that uses this to CRIMINALISE someone, the fuck is wrong with us.

Also it never fails to stun me how simple these laws assume it is to actually be aware of an unplanned pregnancy in the first place - which is why the calls to reduce the abortion limit in the UK to 12 weeks a while ago were so frightening. Why aren't they campaigning to educate men on safe, consensual sex?

TrenterPercenter

Guardian doing what it does.  I'm not disputing the point here (I've made my thoughts clear on abortion) but the presentation is incredibly emotive (which is what they do).

Dozen's in 10 years - why not just tell us exactly how many, dozen's is rare let's say it was 22 that's 2 a year, there can be all kinds of reasons why things can get called into the attention of the police here, it could be that a mother has mental health concerns or and quite obviously from what has been explained they could do themselves serious harm.

The case of the 15 yr old still birth sounds dodgy, I'm not sure what the law is (they don't explain) and they have purposely used the term "early" which when I first read it I thought what like 1st trimester!! when of course it actually means she was likely late into pregnancy and had a premature still birth.

Of course another issue here is exactly what we don't want to happen with Roe and Wade with women poisoning themselves, this is barbaric in a system that removes access to abortions, but something you of course would want to guard against in systems that do to protect women (questions about criminality but this is complicated as it could be a question of who gave her the poison).

The "digital strip search" just made me lol at how tabloidy the guardian continues to be in its own way.  They looked through her emails and social media, are we using this going forward for all instances of this (I suspect not).

flotemysost

Yeah the wording is a bit shonky, maybe due to lack of detail on those individual cases? I guess this is the main takeaway

QuoteThe 1967 Abortion Act transformed women's healthcare by legalising terminations in England, Wales and Scotland up to 28 weeks, with the legal limit since reduced to 24 weeks. But abortions are only lawful in circumstances where two doctors agree that continuing the pregnancy would be risky for the physical or mental health of the woman.

The old law was never repealed, so anyone who has an unregulated abortion or tries to terminate their pregnancy without supervision from medics is acting unlawfully. Anyone assisting them can also be prosecuted.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on July 03, 2022, 01:36:27 PMThe teenager was investigated under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act, which says it is unlawful to procure a miscarriage using "poison", "an instrument" or "other means whatsoever", and that those found guilty can be jailed for life.

So how many women have been jailed for life?  That being said a more important thing is that this would be a really good law to review and update.  We've got to remember though that the law cannot operate on a case by case basis, that is why we have juries and judges.

A dark question that I'd be interested to hear opinions too.

If a woman was pregnant and got to say 8 months split up with her other half and in order to get back at them used some kind of tool to personally terminate her pregnancy how would people feel about this?  It's not an impossibility (people do all kinds of things sadly) should there be any offence or crime perceived to be committed here?



TrenterPercenter

Quote from: flotemysost on July 03, 2022, 02:00:29 PMYeah the wording is a bit shonky, maybe due to lack of detail on those individual cases? I guess this is the main takeaway

was just coming to that see above post.  It should be reviewed.


Btw keep your eyes peeled on the Guardian they really do behave quite badly on a number of things, I'm often not against the principles (usually very supportive) but the fact they report things in the way they do sometimes seems completely counter intuitive to informing readers and not just getting them highly emotive and sharing their articles in outrage - (there are however some benefits to this tbh).

I remember over Covid how in a rush to teach poor people how to make their own hand sanitiser they basically taught people how to make chloroform.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: flotemysost on July 03, 2022, 02:00:29 PMThe 1967 Abortion Act transformed women's healthcare by legalising terminations in England, Wales and Scotland up to 28 weeks, with the legal limit since reduced to 24 weeks. But abortions are only lawful in circumstances where two doctors agree that continuing the pregnancy would be risky for the physical or mental health of the woman.

The old law was never repealed, so anyone who has an unregulated abortion or tries to terminate their pregnancy without supervision from medics is acting unlawfully. Anyone assisting them can also be prosecuted.

Sorry I misread thought you were talking about the more ancient law.  The bolded part is key here as of course it will always be a risk to a women's mental health to have to go through with a pregnancy they did not want to.  Again the way it is explained by the Guardian it sounds like these two overbearing doctors in the woman's bedroom doing the Gladiators thumb action when in reality it means you go to your GP ask for an abortion and they speak to a gynaecologist who then performs the procedure.  Also worth nothing having more medical opinions isn't necessarily a bad thing just think if the woman was being pressurised into it by their partner the GP or gynaecologist could notice here and intervene.

What is really important here is how many abortions are refused prior to 24 weeks and for what reasons (whether this the right cut off is another matter) - I can't think of anything other than coercion by a third party (and therefore protective) that wouldn't qualify.

On the other side of this surely we want women to have safe "regulated" abortions and not promote back alley terminations that might leave the women with injuries or worse.  I've always interpreted that aspect as about the woman's health not right to life nonsense.  I'm not keen on unregulated and therefore potentially untrained and dangerous people setting themselves up to carry out abortions on vulnerable people, there could be all kinds of issues with that and these would be the exact people that would be prosecuted for assisting.  Of course this relies on women having information about, easy access to, and supported free abortion care provide by the state (or regulated providers).

Blue Jam

Quote from: flotemysost on July 03, 2022, 02:00:29 PMYeah the wording is a bit shonky, maybe due to lack of detail on those individual cases?

Possibly waiting for a few Freedom of Information Act requests to be fulfilled?

flotemysost

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 03, 2022, 02:39:46 PMOn the other side of this surely we want women to have safe "regulated" abortions and not promote back alley terminations that might leave the women with injuries or worse.  I've always interpreted that aspect as about the woman's health not right to life nonsense.  I'm not keen on unregulated and therefore potentially untrained and dangerous people setting themselves up to carry out abortions on vulnerable people, there could be all kinds of issues with that and these would be the exact people that would be prosecuted for assisting.  Of course this relies on women having information about, easy access to, and supported free abortion care provide by the state (or regulated providers).

Absolutely. It just seems totally counterintuitive to punish the person who's sought out an unregulated abortion. In a nation where safe abortions are (for now) accessible, you'd assume that in most cases no one would go for a more dangerous, unreliable option by choice (though likewise, I don't know what the figures are for people being refused abortions by medical professionals before 24 weeks in the UK).

I can see an argument for punishing the person aiding them if it's an abusive partner manipulating the pregnant person to get an unsafe abortion over a regulated one (e.g. to keep a pregnancy resulting from abuse as undetectable as possible, so the abuser can protect themselves) but I expect that's probably quite a hard thing to prove, though I'm sure it does happen, sadly.

madhair60

I think it's been mentioned but I don't want to scroll through the whole thread. Can anyone recommend a charity to donate to that can help this situation out in the slightest? Help women get access to safe abortion in the United States, basically? I'm going to be running a comic bundle soon for charity and I want it to be in aid of this, even in a small way

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: madhair60 on July 04, 2022, 11:45:14 AMI think it's been mentioned but I don't want to scroll through the whole thread. Can anyone recommend a charity to donate to that can help this situation out in the slightest? Help women get access to safe abortion in the United States, basically? I'm going to be running a comic bundle soon for charity and I want it to be in aid of this, even in a small way

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 27, 2022, 03:57:54 PMList of US Abortion Charities


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: flotemysost on July 03, 2022, 08:52:50 PMAbsolutely. It just seems totally counterintuitive to punish the person who's sought out an unregulated abortion. In a nation where safe abortions are (for now) accessible, you'd assume that in most cases no one would go for a more dangerous, unreliable option by choice (though likewise, I don't know what the figures are for people being refused abortions by medical professionals before 24 weeks in the UK).

It is counterintuitive to punish people for lots of presumed crimes (drug abuse being an obvious one), but the fact that we don't is reflected in the really small number that the Guardian over eggs and under plays that no one was actually sent to jail for life but just investigated.  A typical scenario one can imagine is the daughter of a religious family worried that a regulated abortion will identify the situation to their parents or trigger warning here
Spoiler alert
victims of rape and child abuse where their abuser forces them to have an abortion so the abuse remains hidden
[close]

Investigations here are going to be as much about protecting the individual rather than wanting to punish them.  I think this is badly reflected in the current law, there are lots of laws that need updating due to them being discriminatory by the letter but in practice are never actually followed (there are sometimes counter laws or admonishing factors in other bit of legislation that cancel things out).

Thankfully we don't put women in jail for unregulated abortions in this country, I'm not even how many women are jailed unregulated terminations past 24 weeks (perhaps someone can find some stats).  I've found this table in what looks like a really good report (Decriminalising Abortion in the UK: What Would It Mean?



Which on a grand scale just shows this is virtually a non-issue, however that doesn't mean women are not getting illegal abortions due to aspects of UK laws.  Another interesting paper is this The 1967 Abortion Act fifty years on: Abortion, medical authority and the law revisited which suggest reform is required.  I was wrong in my assumption GPs and gynaecologists could act as dual medical decision makers, but it turns out decision for treatment doesn't count - that paper makes the case (convincingly) for why that reduces access and is unnecessary.

There is a good section in the first report on how decriminalising is not the same as deregulating, so it would seem logical to criminalise unregulated providers not women. But this leads me back to my very rare possibility of an individual personally performing a late stage termination in spite of their partner (or another reason) should this be a crime? That is a very difficult question to answer.

PS - should add what is definitely clear, to me atleast, is that UK law is not as protective in statue as most of us probably thought and with this current bunch of Tories (And the deputy of the SNP ffs) talking about women's rights the way some of them have time for everyone to remain highly vigilant.  A concern is that I think the law (as part of the second study cited) is currently being reviewed so recent US behaviour could influence proceeding looking to improve access and decriminalise abortions furthers.

Also just incase anyone needs it or wants to donate to a UK charity https://www.bpas.org/

madhair60

that's the list I already looked at but it didn't narrow it down much. I went with The Brigid Alliance

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: madhair60 on July 04, 2022, 03:49:00 PMthat's the list I already looked at but it didn't narrow it down much. I went with The Brigid Alliance

They look good - just for clarity they are charity helping with transportation costs to abortion clinics (which might be essential if getting out of state).

Pimhole

Quote from: madhair60 on July 04, 2022, 11:45:14 AMI think it's been mentioned but I don't want to scroll through the whole thread. Can anyone recommend a charity to donate to that can help this situation out in the slightest? Help women get access to safe abortion in the United States, basically? I'm going to be running a comic bundle soon for charity and I want it to be in aid of this, even in a small way

You'll want the National Network of Abortion Funds which funnels the cash to wherever it is most needed.

madhair60