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Involuntarily Celibate rebranding

Started by bgmnts, June 30, 2022, 11:09:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Kankurette

It's easy to blame women (or black people, or LGBT people, or Jews) than it is to blame the people in power, I guess.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kankurette on July 02, 2022, 11:25:52 AMI'm not saying you are anti-women. I'm just saying that I find it difficult to empathise with incels because I'm not good at empathising with people who hate me for what I am.

I wasn't referring to you Kanks, it's generally the same people that inhabit each of those masks.

jonbob

How about we go back to calling them people using their personality as a contraceptive?

Luornu

I feel Kankurette's post (hello I am new here). Sorry for oversharing but I didn't have sex til I was 28 (because autistic socially awkward etc) and I ended up forcing and contriving myself into a relationship with the first thing with a penis and a pulse who would have me and you know why? Because idiot me thought 'if I have had sex and if I am in a relationship then I have magically become a normal person' and all I ever wanted in life was to be normal.....aaaaaah, it don't work like that.

Needless to say the relationship became an abusive one (NO REALLY?>>>>>you do surprise me!) Who coulda predicted that??????

And yes I kick myself for being an idiot nearly every day.

The only relationship of the romantic kind I've had and it was an abusive loveless one. Chances are I'm not going to ever be in another one. I'm now working on living the best life I can alone,it is hard. Things would be easier if I had another person with me, just from a practical point of view, but if it's not meant to be then it's not meant to be. I'm living life on the hardest difficulty and that's all there is to it, got to get used to it,tired of crying about it.

I do think a lot of the neurotypical feminists (and I consider myself a feminist myself) on the anti incel subreddits who do tend to fall into the virgin shaming hahahaha you can't even get a shag loser nuance free end of things (heck it's Reddit why am I surprised?) I think they just Don't Get It. How hard it is for people on the spectrum like me, and how desolately alone we are and how hard it is to connect.

I also would strongly id with the whole incel/forever alone thing if it wasn't for all the rampant misogyny, the myth that women have it easy and can have sex whenever they want.....let me tell you I am a cis woman who is socially awkward and I can tell you straight from the horse's fundament-No it isn't any easier if you're a woman!

You can't tell them though.

ProvanFan

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 02, 2022, 11:20:43 AMDon't worry, I'm anti-incel now apparently anyway, was anti-women before for empathising with them and now soon to be anti-socialist for making a comment about Greggs.


When you play in goals, you're Antti Niemi.

Jockice

When he was in a punk band it was Anti-Pasti.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Paul Calf on July 02, 2022, 11:16:30 AMThis is a weird argument for a socialist to make.

It's a weird argument for anyone to make because it doesn't make any sense.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kankurette on July 01, 2022, 10:59:17 PMIts someone who hates himself, his race or his gender, and cloaks it in Social Justice Warrior terms. For example, I call a male feminist a cuck simply because he usually chooses to ignore (or actively support) the virulent misandry inherent in the modern feminist movement, and ignores the disadvantages men face in terms of access to services for domestic violence, child custody and discrimination faced in employment due to so called "positive discrimination" in favor of women.

So I think what you are describing here is a more a political mindset that transcends inceldom.  This is basically my old housemate who became a Peterson fan and started ranting at me about women, the myth of the wage gap, leftwing academics and the fact he should be able to use the N-word when he liked.  I put him straight, we've not spoken since and now he is apparently calling me a Nazi (probably a cuck too) to his family and friends.  He was at the time engaged to be married.

Cuck is just an alt-right derogatory term, yes it is about projection, Its common knowledge that fascists and fascistic thinking has lots to do with the theatre of sexual sadomasochism (like religion) because its about master and slaves, it's only a few clicks away to reimagine this and project it onto others.
 
The thing I would say about this is it all about "easy" explanations for the situations people find themselves in (I say people because this affects women as well).  We'll come back to this.

Quote from: Kankurette on July 02, 2022, 11:17:19 AMAnd sorry, Trenter, but I can't be empathetic to the incel movement because so many of them hate women, and I AM a woman. They don't even see us as human beings, they just see us as prizes or possessions, something to brag about.

This is were we will disagree (but I understand your position, why you choose it and).  You are talking about incels as if they are are cohesive organised group when they are not, you said "not just lonely men" well incels appear to be in the main lonely men than evolve into rabid misogynists but this is born out the impact of poor mental health and the effects of not meeting societal expectations.  They are deserving of empathy in how they got there, they do not deserve supporting in their beliefs that are harmful to others.

So we come back to our "easy" explanations, when I say "easy" I mean psychologically easy, and when I say psychologically easy I mean the least energy consuming way to consider yourself and your problems.  When we faced with a deficit in our lives that causes us emotional pain we will seek resolve the emotional and psychological imbalance we experience there are several ways we can do this with the least costly to use to say "it is not anything to do with me it is them" and them absolutely must be of an order that can control the individuals life.  It is much more costly for use to be active in our problems for a whole range of reasons (fear of failure, effort, clear rational thinking on reality of life, admission of mistakes) and the emotions that come with them are not as fulfilling or direct as anger, self-righteousness and self-pity. 

This isn't a failure of  incels or men, this is what can and does happens to all humans, women have their own version of this in which all failures are due to men and all criticisms of women or women-centric culture are misogynistic.  You'll find plenty of female dominated forums like your Mumsnets with women engaging in this behaviour (blaming all the same groups) or going on about "high value" males and upholding all number of traditions that play into negative gender roles because it benefits them.  Incels are just highly visible for several reasons, one of the being that they have been in a lot of cases co-opted by rightwing movements who promote and play up to these easy ways thinking, you've seen now how easy this can b e to do with women also with anti-trans movements.  You are a victim and life is shit so here is a handy enemy you can place and fixate all your anger on to.  We are back to the same oppressor and victim logic, master and slave.

Anyone that however questions this destructive mindset is an even worse enemy and clearly hates (choose whichever one suits) men/women/pasties

TrenterPercenter

#158
btw this is why Peterson is so popular because for his audience he tells them what they want to hear.  The trick is to not be like these people but this appears to be the trend across the board at the moment.

thenoise

It's 'fussy'. Otherwise the incels would all be fucking each other. Or at least, lusting after 'normal' women rather than the model lookers who only go after the jock guys (or whatever they are called nowadays).

I wonder how much of this comes from fear, how many of these guys have ever had the guts to ask a girl out, especially when they are not so drunk they can hardly stand. And men aren't allowed to feel fear, so it is warped into anger bitterness etc. Much manlier way to feel.

It's also tempting, when perpetually single, to assume that everyone else is having a lot more sex than they actually are.

touchingcloth

Any one got tips for chadmaxxing my ramen?

Kankurette

I don't hate all men for the simple reason that I know there are good men out there. I have male friends and male relatives who I know I can trust (and I've experienced some nasty bullying from women and NB people too).

bgmnts

Quote from: touchingcloth on July 02, 2022, 03:02:48 PMAny one got tips for chadmaxxing my ramen?

Sprinkle some cinnaman in it!

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kankurette on July 02, 2022, 03:54:26 PMI don't hate all men for the simple reason that I know there are good men out there. I have male friends and male relatives who I know I can trust (and I've experienced some nasty bullying from women and NB people too).

I'm sure you do Kanks I'm not in anyway accusing you of hating men. What I'm talking about is the conversation regarding toxic masculinity on the left (of which I am fully paid up cuck member of) is always about how bad heterosexual men do bad things when there is a whole spectrum of support for this from women, from those with blindspots to these representations in the media, to those that can't hold conversations about mens mental health, to those that write articles about their not sexist but watching their man be violent gets them off, to the active goading and denigration of men for being "pussys" and not "real men".   It is incredibly telling how even the term "toxic masculinity" is associated with domestic violence etc.. when most victims, beaten, abused and murdered are other men.

This is problematic, women are big influence on heterosexual men's sense of self and this isn't about "women solving men's problems" like it's another chore to do around the house, it's about understanding how patriarchal systems operate to control men as well and how they actually permeate into, and are progressed in feminine culture.  There is very little to lose here for anyone that doesn't actually want to uphold traditional patriarchal systems.

This really comes into inceldom because of the belief that no men suffered in the past until the feminazi's took over, a convenient lie that does an incredible amount of heavy lifting to ignore capitalist failures of the last 60 years and to try and hand back power to the old elitist system of powerful men controlling everyone else (incels included but with he promise of women).

So what are we left with lots of pre-inceled lonely men that need support, the take was that I was against support networks when, no I think that is the solution but it needs an identity and ideology that doesn't just crumble back into the misogyny and how you diagnose the problem predicts how you tend to approach things.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I was reading a conversation on Facebook a little while ago about slut shaming. A bloke (using his real name and everything) volunteered that he'd experienced the opposite, having lost his a virginity at a relatively late age. He talked about the judgement, anxiety and shame he'd felt, only for a woman to almost immediately tell him to shut up and that he didn't understand. I'm no expert, but it seems like discouraging men from sharing their feelings isn't the best way to combat toxic masculinity.

I would agree with the point made earlier, that lumping the chronically lonely into some quasi-clinical box might be counterproductive - convincing them that they're pathologically unlovable and there is nothing they can do about it. I myself am chronically single. While I am a bit socially awkward, with a touch of the old autism spectrum, my patchy love life is really due to lack of trying. As timid as I can be, I know full well that I could do something about it, if I really set my mind to it. Not least because I'm gorgeous.

touchingcloth

You also have that fantastic junk.

Stoneage Dinosaurs

Not much to add except that as someone who spent their early adulthood lonely and single I was extremely lucky to find my way to CaB rather than Reddit, because I could have turned out a lot more bitter and resentful otherwise. I know this place hasn't been without it's problems, but i'm still proper grateful for it being around.


TrenterPercenter

Jesus so I've just been writing this stuff here on incels and then suddenly I'm getting Peterson shit all over my YouTube.

Look at the state of this shite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGT5mauvaUg

This is what you are up against.

Note this was also a lead in advert for a lefttube video on Boris Johnson being a dickhead.  They know what they are doing.

TrenterPercenter


Dickie_Anders

Peterson has a very strange interpretation of Christianity. I remember a video where he talks about the "blessed are the meek" Bible quote, and how much it confused him. He came to the conclusion that instead of it being about the vulnerable and weak being rewarded by God, it means in the original hebrew that "those who are strong but are able to restrain themselves" are blessed, or something like that.

For some reason the man refuses to see virtue in anything that doesn't match the ideal of being a strong masculine independent man who doesn't take shit from anyone. His obsession with dragons and insertion of them into everything is also odd and amusing

#171
The king of being incapable of cognitive dissonance thinks you can only like books if they all agree with each other. He likes Nietzsche and the Gospel but they can't disagree or else he'd be at risk of having an original thought trying to reconcile them. So of course the passage Nietzsche hates the most doesn't mean what means because your parents can't ever fight. so the dogma rolls on for eternity

honestly I think part of the reason for Petersons popularity regarding religion is that he is the shittest pop theologian imaginable, which is to his enormous benefit. the most basic Thought For The Day platitudes are genuinely more provoking than he is. he's speaking to people who love Christianity as a symbol for their side in the clash of civilisations, but have ingrained contempt for religious thinking and tradition underneath it. so he's perfect for them. he'll never accidentally say anything that'll disturb the illusion of Christianity as moral guardian of the west that's be populised to young americans since the Bush years. 

Dickie_Anders

Yeah that's why I can't even bring myself to hate him, like a lot of people on the internet seem to. Nothing he says is radical. It's literally just shit your mum would say when you're a kid, like telling you to tidy your room, or things most people with common sense know, e.g. "it's likely not a great idea to be overly-promiscuous". Lots of people seem to dress him up as a daring conservative saying the unsayable and it's bizarre

When asked, the normal religious person will answer that they're a Christian because they believe in the Bible and that Jesus is their saviour etc. When asked, Peterson says stuff like "it's important that we remain Christian because if we don't we lose the metaphorical substrata of our society". The former is a lot more earnest and respectable to me than such a silly nonsensical intellectualising of it

TrenterPercenter

He is a grifter plain and simple.  The end result of when an evangelist trains to be a psychologist so he can access to more vulnerable people.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Dickie_Anders on July 02, 2022, 10:36:06 PMYeah that's why I can't even bring myself to hate him, like a lot of people on the internet seem to. Nothing he says is radical.

What he says isn't radical or dangerous the fact that he presents it as science in the form of psychology is.

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 02, 2022, 10:40:14 PMHe is a grifter plain and simple.  The end result of when an evangelist trains to be a psychologist so he can access to more vulnerable people.

He's very sincere about the spiritual side at least, I've read interviews with the guy who vouched for him when other people didn't want to hire him and that guy has anecdotes about him talking sincerely about prophetic experiences and wanting to be a priest of some sort, predicting the end of the world and all stuff of that sort. I don't doubt his conversion story about being scared by activist leftists at university, either.

Peterson as a guy is genuine eccentric, and one of few interesting things about him is how someone so strange is ideologically so boring. On Twitter people made a thing about how bizarre Maps Of Meaning is, but it really isn't a strange book at all. Its just like every magnum opus on meaning, morals and culture by a mediocrity.

TrenterPercenter

Hmmmm lots of religious people are sincere in their belief but grifting in their behaviour.  They are are two things that work very well with each other.

PS - not that I am really convinced he is sincere but that is a irrelevance imo

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html is far more interesting than any of the liberal take downs or debunkings of him. lays open his intellectual dishonesty, lack of curiosity and how much of a grift the "free speech" cause is to him

QuoteSeveral years ago, Jordan Peterson told me he wanted to buy a church. This was long before he became known as "the most influential public intellectual in the Western world," as he was described in the pages of the New York Times a few months ago. It was before he was fancied to be a truth-telling sage who inspired legions, and the author of one of the bestselling books in the world this year. He was just my colleague and friend.

I assumed that it was for a new home — there was a trend in Toronto of converting religious spaces, vacant because of their dwindling congregations, into stylish lofts — but he corrected me. He wanted to establish a church, he said, in which he would deliver sermons every Sunday.

QuoteShortly after Jordan's rise to notoriety back in 2016, I emailed him to express my upset with his dishonesty and lack of intellectual and social integrity. He called in a conciliatory voice the next morning. I was reiterating my disappointment and upset when he interrupted me, saying more or less the following:

"You don't understand. I am willing to lose everything, my home, my job etc., because I believe in this." And then he said, with the intensity he is now famous for, "Bernie. Tammy had a dream, and sometimes her dreams are prophetic. She dreamed that it was five minutes to midnight."

Normally you'd expect a guy like this to be Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbarb level with crazy beliefs and weird cosmology, but instead his worldview is a combination of George W Bush and a teenager who discovered weed and Joseph Campbell during the same half term

TrenterPercenter

Yes I know all of this (literally read that article).  Evangelists do this a lot, yabbering on about god and being virtuous whilst spending donations on private jets.  I'm also not sure the words of a serial liar are really worth much.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: touchingcloth on July 02, 2022, 03:02:48 PMAny one got tips for chadmaxxing my ramen?

Might do. How far is your rasmus from your T-zone?