The 1023 Overdose Event

[Still Not George]

Your use of the word 'fraud' is unfair.

But people can sell things that they believe in to other people who also believe in them.

That's the point. Most people are not informed about this stuff. You can dress it up as much as you like as "ooh, you're just trying to save those less intelligent than you" but you know as well as I do that the majority of the public are not informed about science and medicine. It's not their fault in any way, it's the fault of a relentlessly crap media dominated by humanities grads for over a century.

If people are not informed about science and medicine, then all it takes is a convincing-sounding quack to step up with a "treatment" without any proof at all and of course people will believe it! People who are ill want to believe in things that will make them better! How hard is that to understand?

The point I'm making is that homeopaths, like faith healers and reiki practitioners and the myriad snake-oil variants that came before them, are predators. And the whole fucking point of having a medical establishment is to prevent people predating on the sick and vulnerable.

Let's keep them whinging about 'sugar pills' before they turn their sights on more important things

Put the canard down and step away slowly.

"Why are you protesting about poverty when a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova could eradicate life at any moment without warning? You should protest about that!"

[biggytitbo]

All those raging about this, why don't you turn your ire to the true villains here, the big pharmaceuticals who get 10s of billions of our money to pump us full of often unnecessary product? You know that industry that is curled around government and public life like a serpent and won't stop until we're all permanently on their drugs for every single problem real or invented known to man?

[Danger Man]

Whichever one you wanted to.

Zing!

About the only thing I might consider protesting about is the plan for a 'horse tax'. Now, what kind of feeble publicity stunt can I do that makes my protest as much about me as the issue at hand?

Maybe I'll ride to parliament dressed as Dick Turpin or something....

[Still Not George]

Did you take part in the protest or did you just post a link to a website?

I found out about it at 9:30 this morning, and I'm not in any of the cities named. Had I known about it earlier I'd be suffering serious chakra misalignment (read: indigestion) right now, I suspect.

[Still Not George]

All those raging about this, why don't you turn your ire to the true villains here, the big pharmaceuticals who get 10s of billions of our money to pump us full of often unnecessary product? You know that industry that is curled around government and public life like a serpent and won't stop until we're all permanently on their drugs for every single problem real or invented known to man?

You mean the industry that's successfully been held off from complete dominance of medicine only through government intervention, as is demonstrated amply by the difference in medicalisation levels between private medical systems such as the US and public medical services such as found in Europe?

[Milo]

Don't practitioners have to constantly prove that it's working though?

Only for conventional medicine.

There are a lot of sick people that conventional medicine hasn't found a way to cure, if sugar pills are a way of helping those people, even if it gives them confidence to get on with their lives despite illness, then the money isn't wasted.

It's a good point, and one that may well have some merit. Edzard Ernst has this to say about it:

The most powerful argument against using homeopathic medicines as "helpful placebos" is, I think, the simple fact that we do not require a placebo to generate a placebo response. This might sound paradoxical but, once we consider this concept seriously, it is really quite obvious: if we prescribe a treatment with specific effects in a kind and empathetic manner, we will inevitably also generate a placebo effect — in addition to the specific effect of that treatment. Thus, we can maximise a placebo effect without actually administrating a placebo. To express it in a slightly different way: if a clinician prescribes homeopathy as a "helpful placebo", he or she prevents the patient from benefiting from the specific effect. This will reduce the total therapeutic effect unnecessarily. Surely this cannot be ethical.

Also, this is a good article about the power of the placebo effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19698779?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

[Danger Man]

"Why are you protesting about poverty when a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova could eradicate life at any moment without warning? You should protest about that!"

For God's Dawkin's sake, are you and Biggy in some secret competiton to post the worst 'cheap-shot used in place of an argument' on the interent?

Anyway, are all the protesters dead yet?

[Still Not George]

Don't practitioners have to constantly prove that it's working though? It seemed to be the case with acupuncture, constant reviews and suspicion on behalf of the people handing out money. From what I can see, homeopathy makes no sense at all, but the placebo effect is brilliant, working on both physical and psychological causes for illness (by psychological, I don't mean made up, I mean the mind affecting the body). I suspect most doctors don't believe in homepathy, but as my GP once said "If it works, I'll prescribe it". There are a lot of sick people that conventional medicine hasn't found a way to cure, if sugar pills are a way of helping those people, even if it gives them confidence to get on with their lives despite illness, then the money isn't wasted.

See, this is the kind of thing I was hoping to see in the thread, rather than yet more "oh those protestors don't line up with my political beliefs so they're smug timewasters" bullshit. Thank you.

[chand]

It's the political mentality - "we won't rest until we've forced everyone to do what we want!"

Some people just can't let anything go without interfering. They should pay heed to this phrase a bit more often -  It's none of your business

[Danger Man]

See, this is the kind of thing I was hoping to see in the thread, rather than yet more "oh those protestors don't line up with my political beliefs so they're smug timewasters" bullshit. my beliefs being agreed with. Thank you.

Fixed. 

And anyway, has the case against homepathy been entirely proven?

[Still Not George]

For God's Dawkin's sake, are you and Biggy in some secret competiton to post the worst 'cheap-shot used in place of an argument' on the interent?

Seriously, that's the bullshit you're pulling. Protests about one thing do not preclude protests about another. The number of protestors about homeopathy does not have an effect on the number of protestors about globalisation, for example. All you're doing by saying "why are they protesting about this when there's more dangerous things?" is projecting your own beliefs onto the bulk of humanity, by assuming other people care about the same things you care about, and indeed insisting that they SHOULD care about the same things you care about, that they SHOULD have the same tedious cynicism you have.

Which in my opinion makes you a dozen times more smug than anyone currently full of 10^23 dilution arsenic.

[biggytitbo]

People that protest about stuff just because they don't like it rather than because it affects them are cunts.

You know, like those people who protest about TV programs or Jerry Springer the Opera?

[Still Not George]

Fixed. 

Silly, silly little man. mini goatibix has essentially the opposite opinion to me - I think it's damaging and undermines real medicine, as suggested by someone above. The point is that he's actually discussing the issue, rather than informing us all in grandiose fashion how superior they are to all of these snooty protestors.

[Jemble Fred]

Isn't it about time that Neil came clean about paying Biggy and Dangerman to 'provoke debate'? I suppose threads would dry up quickly if we all just made sense.

EDIT: Shall we have the 'Still Not Parenting' tagger step forward? Come on, be a big man.

[Danger Man]

Seriously, that's the bullshit you're pulling. Protests about one thing do not preclude protests about another. The number of protestors about homeopathy does not have an effect on the number of protestors about globalisation, for example. All you're doing by saying "why are they protesting about this when there's more dangerous things?" is projecting your own beliefs onto the bulk of humanity, by assuming other people care about the same things you care about, and indeed insisting that they SHOULD care about the same things you care about, that they SHOULD have the same tedious cynicism you have.

Which in my opinion makes you a dozen times more smug than anyone currently full of 10^23 dilution arsenic.

I wouldn't say I was smug (though I suppose it's not for me to say). I prefer jaded.

Anyway, I'm standing up for the little homeopath being bullied by people who think they know it all. I wouldn't call that cynical.

[Ronnie the Raincoat]

Heh, the figures quoted seem to vary wildly. I've seen from between £152,000 on the 'drugs' up to £4million. The really relevant figure would be the cost of homeopathic treatment - ie; buildings (such as that semi-homeopathic hospital in London), cost of homeopathic consultations, etc.

Other unproven alternative medicines are on the NHS like reiki, so it's not just homeopathic drugs.

[Danger Man]

Isn't it about time that Neil came clean about paying Biggy and Dangerman to 'provoke debate'?

Shit, he's on to us.

Though SNG and Biggy are on the full-time salaries. I just get paid an hourly rate.


(What does 'Still Not Parenting' mean?)

[Milo]

To expand on minibix's point about homeopathy being used for incurable things to provide some benefit to the patient through the placebo effect; I think the difficulty lies in working out where to draw the line. A doctor who had historically provided a patient with homeopathy for colds and whatnot could end up in the position of trying to treat a seriously ill patient who is insisting on just taking homeopathic remedies when there may be effective conventional remedies available, on the basis that, "homeopathy has always worked for me".

[chand]

It's the political mentality - "we won't rest until we've forced everyone to do what we want!"

Some people just can't let anything go without interfering. They should pay heed to this phrase a bit more often -  It's none of your business

This is just white noise, not an argument. You can toss the word 'smug' around about anyone who argues about anything, it's virtually meaningless, and this would only make sense if it was actually about forcing people to do things. This is not a campaign to ban homeopathy.

All those raging about this, why don't you turn your ire to the true villains here, the big pharmaceuticals who get 10s of billions of our money to pump us full of often unnecessary product? You know that industry that is curled around government and public life like a serpent and won't stop until we're all permanently on their drugs for every single problem real or invented known to man?

And another one, this "yeah, well, what about THIS?" argument is a crutch for people who just feel like they should disagree without having to form an actual argument against it. "Gary McKinnon? WHAT ABOUT THE WAR?". "ID cards? Yeah, well, what about AIDS?".

People that protest about stuff just because they don't like it rather than because it affects them are cunts.

People that only protest about things out of pure self-interest are cunts.

[biggytitbo]

People that only protest about things out of pure self-interest are cunts.

I prefer control freaks who want to force everyone to be like them.

[Milo]

And anyway, has the case against homepathy been entirely proven?

Short answer, yes. Longer answer, as far as it possibly can be.

In summary, for conditions where an effective conventional medicine exists it is less effective than the conventional medicine. For all conditions it is equally effective as placebo. The best you can say about it is that it's more effective than no treatment. But then, placebo is more effective than no treatment.

[chand]

I prefer control freaks who want to force everyone to be like them.

Where's the force here? It's about making a point about what homeopathy actually is, and it's gained some traction in doing that.

[Milo]

Other unproven alternative medicines are on the NHS like reiki, so it's not just homeopathic drugs.

Ah yes, good point. And there are some alternative things like acupunture and chiropractic on the NHS as well which do have some mild evidence to support their use for certain conditions.

[Still Not George]

Where's the force here? It's about making a point about what homeopathy actually is, and it's gained some traction in doing that.

It's because I posted it, and I'm one of those dirty statists. Also I think he suspects some of the protestors might be, um, _scientists, and we all know you can't trust those fuckers. Give 'em an inch and they'll pull a TRICK on ya!

[Danger Man]

The best you can say about it is that it's more effective than no treatment. But then, placebo is more effective than no treatment.

Seems fair enough. I've tried homeopathic treatments in the past (for minor things) and they seemed to work. I have no idea why, just as I have no idea why most conventional medicine works.

Reiki is complete bollocks, I should add. Where's the protest about that?

[biggytitbo]

Prince Charles believes in homeopathy and Prince Charles can't be wrong can he?

[biggytitbo]

Reiki is complete bollocks, I should add. Where's the protest about that?

Ohh I don't know, I found it quite tasty myself.

[Still Not George]

Seems fair enough. I've tried homeopathic treatments in the past (for minor things) and they seemed to work. I have no idea why, just as I have no idea why most conventional medicine works.

What minor things, if you don't mind me asking?

[chand]

Prince Charles believes in homeopathy and Prince Charles can't be wrong can he?

He fancies Camilla Parker-Bowles.

[biggytitbo]

He had an attack of smugness, we all get it from time to time.